Gun up or Gun down for sporting

[enfieldspares]

6 hours ago, ditchman said:

if you are shooting gun down...make sure you havt got a sticky rubber butt plate...and wear something that will allow your butt to slide slickly into position

Ah. Use shellac. That's what they used to do and that's what I used. A 50/50 mix by volume of shellac with linseed oil. In a small pot then shake well before use. The linseed oil keeps the mixture wet as you rub it onto the rubber pad with your fingers. Then leave well alone and the oil evaporates off leaving the shellac to dry and now the pad is "slick".

Edited June 19 by enfieldspares

[ditchman]

53 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

Ah. Use shellac. That's what they used to do and that's what I used. A 50/50 mix by volume of shellac with linseed oil. In a small pot then shake well before use. The linseed oil keeps the mixture wet as you rub it onto the rubber pad with your fingers. Then leave well alone and the oil evaporates off leaving the shellac to dry and now the pad is "slick".

or mix with meths

[Cranfield]

Does "AA" and "AAA" refer to the shot size that Mr Carrie uses for his long range shooting ?

Having been a live quarry shooter for many years before trying clays (only socially), I found premounting the gun, even for DTL, or Skeet, very weird.
I tried to shoot both with gun  down and missed (or just clipped) too many, due to them moving out of range.
On all sporting stands (apart from fast high towers), I found gun down more comfortable and effective.

With gun up, I found I spent too much time trying to locate the target (looking round the barrels).

Try half mounting your gun, I have seen Mr Digweed do that.

Do whatever you are use to, works most of the time.
 

 

 

Edited June 19 by Cranfield

[Gerry78]

8 hours ago, Poor Shot said:

A mixture of both gun up and gun down depending on the target presentation is the correct answer. If you are serious about scores when clay target shooting then I wouldn't take too much notice of anyone who shoot clays purely for game shooting practice or anyone that says that people who shoot gun up can't shoot. Any AAA sporting shooter would wipe the floor with anyone on the forum no matter what the target but will still shoot gun up for the majority of sporting targets because it gives you an obvious advantage. Dave Carrie is/ was a champion shooter and is probably still a AA or AAA shot and will shoot every target that benefits from being shot gun up in a gun up fashion. Not a single person here can argue against his overall shooting ability.

I'm no George Digweed but I do take clay shooting serious and shoot registered competitions in english sporting, FITASC, super sporting etc. I also shoot game, pest control and enjoy wildfowling so a good mix. 

Personally, I try to tailor my approach to each stand depending on the first target being presented. If it's a fast moving crosser, has a limited window of opportunity, a going away or quartering trap style target then I'll always shoot gun up. Where a target has a long time in the air like a crow or big crosser, looper or battue target and there is risk that I can start hanging onto or trying to measure a target then I will start with a FITASC style gun down position. Some targets are taken with a half up/ half down, cheek off the stock and head turned to see the target type approach. If you're shooting FITASC then you've no choice and all targets must start from a gun down position. 

When shooting live birds it can vary from the butt of the gun resting on my hip with the barrels pointing straight up when on peg to being sat crouched in a reen with the gun barrels pointing down in front when on the marsh. I can effectively mount from near any position but I wouldn't dream of doing any of these on a sporting stand for a variety of reasons. 

It's whatever works for the individual and you can spend years trying to find what works best for you. First and foremost you should be able to correctly shoulder a gun, identify where your going to see the target, where your going to hold the gun and where your going to shoot the target. Without these you are just guessing each and every time you call pull. If you're a long term DTL shooter then you should be able to do the former but not necessarily the latter.

Always try and get a good look at the targets before you shoot. If there is someone in the stand before you then get up behind them and position yourself in a line with where you'll be standing and start planning from there. You'll have at least 3 pairs to observe and create a plan of attack. Obviously be careful and respectful to the shooter already in the stand but chances are they'll be locked into the task at hand and won't notice you're there unless you're standing virtually on top of them. If you're first in the stand then always ask the ref to show you a pair and let him know you want to see A target first and then B target on your command. Don't let them fling two targets out at random as you won't get a chance to plan effectively. On a simultaneous pair, you can ask for two pairs taking note of the A target on the first pair and B target on the second. You can then decide in which order you will attack them and where. More often than not, even if you aren't first in the stand you can ask to see a pair when you get in and the ref will oblige. The worst they can say is no and some grounds will state on the stands target board whether this is permitted or not. 

Also worth knowing the rules inside and out. 90% of refs, even in registered competitions, are low or unpaid volunteers which don't have a clue about the rules and are given training on the morning of the shoot in the case of first timers. Knowing when you claim for no targets, distractions etc can gain you that extra one or two points over a 100 target course. On last weekends competition for example, I lost one point on a stand where a pigeon crossed directly in front of me as the target was presented taking my focus off of the target resulting in a lost target. I should have not taken the shot, lowered the gun, called distraction and taken the pair again. I'm not a AA or AAA class shooter but at that level one target can make the difference between you coming 1st or 21st. Taking the pigeon did cross my mind but It would have resulted in possibly a yellow card and lost target anyway for those who are wondering. I also wouldn't have been able to retrieve it so a bit pointless really. 

Don't worry about chokes or cartridges. 1/4 choke in each barrel and 24g 7.5s or 8s will take 95% of targets that you'll see on a UK english sporting layout. I use skeet and 1/4 with 28g english 8's and I can recall one time that I've altered this in the last 10 registered sporting comps. It was for a 65 yard (confirmed by the ground) battue target and only then I changed to a 1/2 choke with a 28g Italian 7.5 (english 7 shot) which broke the target convincingly.  

Poor shot you have answered my original post in one comment thank you very informative reading It’s bizarre years of shooting DTL it’s hard to change your mindset for sporting but know now that’s what I have to do Thanks Again 👍

[Westley]

1 hour ago, Gerry78 said:

Poor shot you have answered my original post in one comment thank you very informative reading It’s bizarre years of shooting DTL it’s hard to change your mindset for sporting but know now that’s what I have to do Thanks Again 👍

Try shooting a 100 bird 'all round'  !

25 Skeet, 25 DTL (single barrel), 25 ABT and 25 Compak.

[ehb102]

If you're shooting one of the disciplines you want to be as consistent as possible. Therefore if you can get a consistent gun down movement on skeet, good for you. 

I shot gun up until 10 minutes into my first sim day ☺️ Going gun down was a ten year process of improving skills and changing gun stock. Adam Calvert did a brilliant article in the Field's special women's edition a couple of years ago where he cited that as expected for a woman coming into shooting. Only acknowledgement of that I've ever seen. 

[oldypigeonpopper]

59 minutes ago, ehb102 said:

If you're shooting one of the disciplines you want to be as consistent as possible. Therefore if you can get a consistent gun down movement on skeet, good for you. 

I shot gun up until 10 minutes into my first sim day ☺️ Going gun down was a ten year process of improving skills and changing gun stock. Adam Calvert did a brilliant article in the Field's special women's edition a couple of years ago where he cited that as expected for a woman coming into shooting. Only acknowledgement of that I've ever seen. 

Hello, It is years since i shot clays but sporting was gun down, skeet was gun up, Is Adam from Calvert gun shop ?? As a side note, A lady friend wanted to have a first go at Clays any advice on what would be best , 12 or 20 , i have a 12 O/U game gun

Edited June 20 by oldypigeonpopper

[ehb102]

8 minutes ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, It is years since i shot clays but sporting was gun down, skeet was gun up, Is Adam from Calvert gun shop ?? 

I think so. Was quite a big name in the press for a bit, giving advice. Calvert Sporting. I think his missus is called Penny?

[oldypigeonpopper]

1 minute ago, ehb102 said:

I think so. Was quite a big name in the press for a bit, giving advice. Calvert Sporting. I think his missus is called Penny?

Hello, Yes they are situated up on the Hendred Downs near me, although i have never made a visit ,

[martinj]

1 hour ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, It is years since i shot clays but sporting was gun down, skeet was gun up, Is Adam from Calvert gun shop ?? As a side note, A lady friend wanted to have a first go at Clays any advice on what would be best , 12 or 20 , i have a 12 O/U game gun

I shoot gun up for clays, I'll shoot gun up on pigeons/game if I have time to prepare, if not it's gun down panicky style.

12 or 20g? I would assess the build of the person you are coaching, most can handle a 12 if it fits reasonably well. If the lady is of slight build she would probably appreciate a 20g with 21gram loads

[oldypigeonpopper]

5 minutes ago, martinj said:

I shoot gun up for clays, I'll shoot gun up on pigeons/game if I have time to prepare, if not it's gun down panicky style.

12 or 20g? I would assess the build of the person you are coaching, most can handle a 12 if it fits reasonably well. If the lady is of slight build she would probably appreciate a 20g with 21gram loads

Hello, We can try my 12 first with 28g carts but if that seems a tad to much then see if i can borrow a 20 , 

[London Best]

3 hours ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, We can try my 12 first with 28g carts but if that seems a tad to much then see if i can borrow a 20 , 

No, use a 12 with 21 gram ammo.

[oldypigeonpopper]

Just now, London Best said:

No, use a 12 with 21 gram ammo.

Hello, i only have 28g but that maybe a good solution, 

[London Best]

Just now, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, i only have 28g but that maybe a good solution, 

I would imagine virtually every clay ground will be able to sell you some.

[Westley]

7 hours ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, We can try my 12 first with 28g carts but if that seems a tad to much then see if i can borrow a 20 , 

I have taught countless 'first timers' to shoot. By your aporoach of "I'll try my 12 with 28 gram cartridges " you may not need the 20 bore.  Her FIRST shot may just be her LAST  !

I cringe when I see a group of lads letting a young lady 'have a go'. Usually the gun is far too long for her and too heavy. 1 shot is enough. That hurts her so badly, she never wants to see a gun again. I prefer to use a gas operated 26" barrel gas operated semi auto with 21 gram cartridges. Don't worry about the gun not cycling with 21 grams, you should only be putting 1 cartridge in. You MUST be prepared for her to want to drop the gun after firing too, it happens. Of course, if you want to put the lady off shooting for good, then stick with plan A.

[oldypigeonpopper]

21 minutes ago, Westley said:

I have taught countless 'first timers' to shoot. By your aporoach of "I'll try my 12 with 28 gram cartridges " you may not need the 20 bore.  Her FIRST shot may just be her LAST  !

I cringe when I see a group of lads letting a young lady 'have a go'. Usually the gun is far too long for her and too heavy. 1 shot is enough. That hurts her so badly, she never wants to see a gun again. I prefer to use a gas operated 26" barrel gas operated semi auto with 21 gram cartridges. Don't worry about the gun not cycling with 21 grams, you should only be putting 1 cartridge in. You MUST be prepared for her to want to drop the gun after firing too, it happens. Of course, if you want to put the lady off shooting for good, then stick with plan A.

Hello, We will be getting an Instructor not myself although i did this many many years ago, Cheers

[Gordon R]

Westley, I have personally witnessed that scenario on at least two occasions. 

[Old farrier]

2 hours ago, Westley said:

I have taught countless 'first timers' to shoot. By your aporoach of "I'll try my 12 with 28 gram cartridges " you may not need the 20 bore.  Her FIRST shot may just be her LAST  !

I cringe when I see a group of lads letting a young lady 'have a go'. Usually the gun is far too long for her and too heavy. 1 shot is enough. That hurts her so badly, she never wants to see a gun again. I prefer to use a gas operated 26" barrel gas operated semi auto with 21 gram cartridges. Don't worry about the gun not cycling with 21 grams, you should only be putting 1 cartridge in. You MUST be prepared for her to want to drop the gun after firing too, it happens. Of course, if you want to put the lady off shooting for good, then stick with plan A.

Good post 👍

seen it so many times and can’t understand the mentality 

iv always found a big slow clay and a 410 at about 20 yards is a great starting point for kids and first time ladies 

first lesson is the one that makes them shooters for life or never again 

to the op 

i shoot gun down on the majority of sporting targets probably the move mount shoot method although pre mounted is a advantage for some types of clays 

I think it’s more of where to mount the gun on dtl you always have a start point sporting clays is more about having your feet in the correct position to enable you to pick up the target and shoot it in the appropriate position before you run out of room 

Edited June 20 by Old farrier

[Fellside]

I agree entirely with Westley’s post re starting newbies off with the appropriate gun/cartridge. The scenario described makes me cringe also. 

To the OP, the vast majority of sporting clays are shot gun down (well…gun half way up if the truth be known). If a DTL type of clay presents, then of course this is better addressed gun up. However, some (not many) people may benefit from gun up - if for any reason their reaction time is slow. I used to go shooting with a chap who was compromised by ill health. He had no choice but to shoot gun up at everything and was surprisingly successful. Usually however there is a well recognised benefit to seeing the target above the gun then moving in to a mount and swing. This is a good early habit to establish if you can. Good luck!

[enfieldspares]

11 hours ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

As a side note, A lady friend wanted to have a first go at Clays any advice on what would be best , 12 or 20 , i have a 12 O/U game gun

A gun that fits and a gun that is both not too heavy and that is balanced. Which actually is how everybody's gun ought to be.

A 21 gram load in a 12 bore, all things being equal, will have less recoil than a 21 gram load in a 20 bore of equal weight. This is because the "square of the bore" is larger on the 12 bore so the forces of recoil are better dispersed. And there's more cartridge case diameter to grip the chamber.

The thing that is often overlooked is that many women are left eye dominant even though right handed and also that a woman's breasts need to be taken into account so on some "Ladies Model" guns the toe of the stock will be more cast than the toe of a stock of a gun for a man (unless he has "moobs" of course). 

But the most telling factor in taming felt recoil is stock hold and stock length. Get these right and recoil won't bite.

7 hours ago, London Best said:

No, use a 12 with 21 gram ammo.

This.

Edited June 20 by enfieldspares

[Gerry78]

On 19/06/2024 at 21:18, Westley said:

Try shooting a 100 bird 'all round'  !

25 Skeet, 25 DTL (single barrel), 25 ABT and 25 Compak.

Good point westley 👍

[Gordon R]

Just been watching George Digweed at this years's FITASC World Championship. A mixture of mainly gun down and some gun up.

[Gerry78]

1 hour ago, Gordon R said:

Just been watching George Digweed at this years's FITASC World Championship. A mixture of mainly gun down and some gun up.

Thanks Gordon I think George is safe from me overtaking him 🫣il have to have a watch 👍

[TIGHTCHOKE]

2 hours ago, Gordon R said:

Just been watching George Digweed at this years's FITASC World Championship. A mixture of mainly gun down and some gun up.

Really, FITASC is ALL gun down, surely.

[mpmilo]

21 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Really, FITASC is ALL gun down, surely.

I think the vid was on the super sporting course on the weds, day before the worlds started.