Shoot to kill.

[Westley]

I wondered how many people watched the programme on CH4 last night. It was the shooting of an innocent electrician on a London train, following a spate of bombings in 2005. The Officer that fired the fatal shots, gave his version of the events. Of course the shooting  was followed by the usual demonstrations and wanton vandalism........would we expect anything less   ?

Ironically,  I had spent the afternoon with an ex Marine, now a Police Officer,  who is due to go on his Firearms Officers course in the near future. He was proudly wearing his Military Medals on Remembrance Sunday, and rightly so. I did my level best to talk him out of becoming a Firearms Officer, pointing out to him that God forbid he should be forced to use a firearm, he would be 'hung out to dry',  Hounded by Joe Public and disowned by the Police Force. His views were different, and I suppose mine were 50 years ago. He saw it as owing it to the public, to put his training and expertise to good use, in their protection. He certainly did not view it as an 'ego trip', as some have described it.

 

 

[oldypigeonpopper]

Hello, I watched this, 2nd half tonight, Has not the Police officer who shot that Kaba gone into hiding ??

[Westley]

1 hour ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, I watched this, 2nd half tonight, Has not the Police officer who shot that Kaba gone into hiding ??

I am not sure, but I wouldn't be surprised. A bit like shutting the stable door  ? They hung him out to dry, to prevent more riots.

Edited November 11 by Westley

[shaun4860]

I have now watched both episodes.

The Met did themselves no favours with not putting out the whole story before a whistleblower got involved but it being just 2 weeks after the 7/7 bombings and a few days after 4 more bombs failing to detonate everyone was under a great deal of pressure.

The firearms officer who fired the first shots was damned it he did and damned if he didn’t.

Thankfully no charges were brought but Cressida Dick did herself no favours either.

[Westley]

8 hours ago, shaun4860 said:

I have now watched both episodes.

The Met did themselves no favours with not putting out the whole story before a whistleblower got involved but it being just 2 weeks after the 7/7 bombings and a few days after 4 more bombs failing to detonate everyone was under a great deal of pressure.

The firearms officer who fired the first shots was damned it he did and damned if he didn’t.

Thankfully no charges were brought but Cressida **** did herself no favours either.

Again,  I feel politics was the reason for 'keeping a lid' on things. At least they kept the Officers involved anonymous. But, who would want to carry a gun as a Police Officer, until some better form of 'after care' is put into place   ?

[Minky]

I don't care who I upset but there have been far too many shootings of innocent people by firearms officers. and it is always covered up as a split second judgement decision.  I know that it is a difficult decision but the whole situation is all hyped up with officers shouting and acting like a bunch of cowboys.  There was the electrician on the underground.  The drunk bloke who was a carpenter who had a chair leg wrapped in a sheet which was tied to his crossbar.  The bloke in Hastings who was naked in bed and was shot because he was deemed to have had a large weapon and was shot.  It not good enough.  All sort of swept under the carpet.  far too many.  I'm not saying that a lot of these people weren't Snowy White but a lot didn't need to be shot dead.  I know that police officers don't go to work to kill people but it happens. Generally the police have no credibility with the general public and stuff like this doesn't help.  Whole sections of the public view the police as an enemy.  

[London Best]

A firearms officer friend of mine was called to an incident where someone was waving a ‘firearm’ and threatening police. The man was in a confined area (stairwell) which made it a very dangerous approach for the armed officer. My friend decided before he went up the stairs that if the gun was pointed at him he would shoot. Shouting threats, the man raised his gun. Naturally, my friend double tapped him. The ‘firearm’ turned out to be a replica. 
Would you like to have had to make that decision?

[Gordon R]

I can't grasp the assertion that these are swept under the carpet. There has just been a high profile trial and a bounty placed on the officer's life. Hardly swept under the carpet.

[Minky]

31 minutes ago, London Best said:

A firearms officer friend of mine was called to an incident where someone was waving a ‘firearm’ and threatening police. The man was in a confined area (stairwell) which made it a very dangerous approach for the armed officer. My friend decided before he went up the stairs that if the gun was pointed at him he would shoot. Shouting threats, the man raised his gun. Naturally, my friend double tapped him. The ‘firearm’ turned out to be a replica. 
Would you like to have had to make that decision?

The man was in a confined area (stairwell) which made it a very dangerous approach for the armed officer... So he wasn't a threat to 3rd parties.  there was no need to do anything..  Unless the armed man started to advance discharging rounds at the armed officer.  Then shoot.  the majority of all of these cases the person is THOUGHT to be armed and is a general nutter.  coincidentally the Mrs is currently watching a recorded program about the shooting of the  Brazilian electrician on the tube.

 

 Edit... after watching more of this program they are talking to the officers involved.  it Turns out that SOME people knew the identity of the guy shot.  they didn't tell the firearms crew.  AND one of the officers was at HQ when the commissioner was on his way to the press conference.  He knew but at the press conference he stated that he didn't and that was a total lie.  he wasn't mistaken, It was a deliberate lie. all covered with muddle and basically swept under the carpet.  Cressida **** wasn't wheeled in and chopped immediately until there was a whole string of cock up's.  And it's wondered why the police are held In such low esteem .  At the present time there are so many officers that are being sacked for a big raft of issues.  They cant sack them fast enough.  it runs into HUNDREDS..  YES HUNDREDS.  They've  got convictions for everything under the sun.  Rape,  theft,  Fraud everything.

Edited November 12 by Minky

[TOPGUN749]

41 minutes ago, Minky said:

I don't care who I upset but there have been far too many shootings of innocent people by firearms officers. and it is always covered up as a split second judgement decision.  I know that it is a difficult decision but the whole situation is all hyped up with officers shouting and acting like a bunch of cowboys.  There was the electrician on the underground.  The drunk bloke who was a carpenter who had a chair leg wrapped in a sheet which was tied to his crossbar.  The bloke in Hastings who was naked in bed and was shot because he was deemed to have had a large weapon and was shot.  It not good enough.  All sort of swept under the carpet.  far too many.  I'm not saying that a lot of these people weren't Snowy White but a lot didn't need to be shot dead.  I know that police officers don't go to work to kill people but it happens. Generally the police have no credibility with the general public and stuff like this doesn't help.  Whole sections of the public view the police as an enemy.  

Agreed! They think they are above the law and usually are unfortunately!

[clangerman]

people are being killed because some clown decided the way to train armed cops is have them leap around screaming while waving firearms about which is the LAST thing you need in a volatile situation! 

[TOPGUN749]

19 minutes ago, clangerman said:

people are being killed because some clown decided the way to train armed cops is have them leap around screaming while waving firearms about which is the LAST thing you need in a volatile situation! 

Yes another silly thing,acting the hard man!

[Gordon R]

Thank goodness none of you are firearms police.

[London Best]

45 minutes ago, Minky said:

The man was in a confined area (stairwell) which made it a very dangerous approach for the armed officer... So he wasn't a threat to 3rd parties.  there was no need to do anything..  Unless the armed man started to advance discharging rounds at the armed officer.  Then shoot.  the majority of all of these cases the person is THOUGHT to be armed and is a general nutter.  

I have never been in a situation remotely like the one which my friend had to face (and don’t want to be). 
But if I had been sent up those stairs then I, too, would have shot the man the second he raised a gun in my direction. 
By your saying, “unless the armed man started to advance DISCHARGING ROUNDS AT THE ARMED OFFICER”, then you would have let the nutter shoot first???
Don’t be silly. Apparently, the man was about ten feet away. I certainly would not have given him first go.

[Minky]

I have just watched the rest of the program about the shooting of Jean Charles Mendez and it has interviews with members of the public and the actual officers who shot him.  It is a factual program of actual facts.  What I take from this program is that there was a complete disjoint between the firearms officers and the higher up officers and the information that was passed between them.  Basically the officers were told code red which meant that they were in control of the situation and to shoot to stop the person getting on the train.  After they had shot him the upper officers, (Ian Blair & Cressida **** ) Denied they had issued this order and that they knew who he was.  The officers were hung out to dry and Were subject to investigation for 10 years.  I strongly advise anyone to watch the program on 4 catchup.  it is a complete disgrace.  I don't have a side in this just the truth.

[Minky]

On 11/11/2024 at 11:25, Westley said:

I wondered how many people watched the programme on CH4 last night. It was the shooting of an innocent electrician on a London train, following a spate of bombings in 2005. The Officer that fired the fatal shots, gave his version of the events. Of course the shooting  was followed by the usual demonstrations and wanton vandalism........would we expect anything less   ?

Ironically,  I had spent the afternoon with an ex Marine, now a Police Officer,  who is due to go on his Firearms Officers course in the near future. He was proudly wearing his Military Medals on Remembrance Sunday, and rightly so. I did my level best to talk him out of becoming a Firearms Officer, pointing out to him that God forbid he should be forced to use a firearm, he would be 'hung out to dry',  Hounded by Joe Public and disowned by the Police Force. His views were different, and I suppose mine were 50 years ago. He saw it as owing it to the public, to put his training and expertise to good use, in their protection. He certainly did not view it as an 'ego trip', as some have described it.

 

 

Advise your friend to watch that program.  There is no way that I would ever be a firearms officer.  you're there to do a job which probably would lead to a situation where you had to kill someone.  BUT the SYSTEM will not support you in any way.  no amount of wage money would ever compensate for what happened to those officers.  It undoubtedly has shortened their lives with the stress especially when the upper officers LIKE that Ian Blair lie about how things were.  Good luck ole mate you're on your own.

[harkom]

31 minutes ago, Minky said:

BUT the SYSTEM will not support you in any way.

As an ex- military serviceman he is likely to be well aware that the "System" - ie MOD, UK Gov, Lefty Parliamentarians such as Blair'n Co along with their legal system acolytes do not support  previous "employees" of supposed misdemeanours. Just think Iraq and Ulster to name but two historic episodes where servicemen are being/have been hung out to dry.

Sadly the **** appointment was made along the current requirements to fill such positions based on gender, political leaning (real or faked) etc   -  and chosen by the mayor of Metropolis ......meritocracy be damned...!!

[Gordon R]

Minky - struggling with your logic. At one point you say these matters are swept under the carpet. Later you say the Police had no backing  and remained under investigation for 10 years. Which is it?

[12gauge82]

I think a lot of the public lack the understanding of being in a dynamic life or death situation. I'm sure It's not like the movies where everything is obvious and the officers are virtually super heroes abale to think and act in super human fashion. 

Police officers are people just like everyone else, yes specialist firearms officers have done extensive training which obviously helps, but they are still going to be subject to the same imperfections everyone else is and therefore can only do the best they can in whatever situation they are thrown in to. 

The bottom line in my opinion is some people have unrealistic expectations of what can be achieved and the risks involved in any armed operation. 

[Agriv8]

My nephew is in year 3 of his police career he has been asked to going though firearms assessment. his current thinking is to just deal with knives and other weapons testing his body armour for the moment.

he is a regular in the Saturday night party wagon and will not shy away from keeping people safe from those on a different planet due to drink and drugs. Those that knock the police go talk to an officer and then decide if they are all dishonest they have to make split second decisions often with little or no backup . Hindsight is wonderful but they are damned if they do and damned if they dont

Agriv8

[oowee]

1 minute ago, Agriv8 said:

My nephew is in year 3 of his police career he has been asked to going though firearms assessment. his current thinking is to just deal with knives and other weapons testing his body armour for the moment.

he is a regular in the Saturday night party wagon and will not shy away from keeping people safe from those on a different planet due to drink and drugs. Those that knock the police go talk to an officer and then decide if they are all dishonest they have to make split second decisions often with little or no backup . Hindsight is wonderful but they are damned if they do and damned if they dont

Agriv8

This seems to me a fair view of reality. I would not want to do their job for any amount of pay.

Given the background it's incredible the civilised approach of police officers to members of the general public in ordinary dealings. It's a long way ahead of the police forces that I have had the misfortune to deal with around the world. 

[Dougy]

I wonder how many of these so called accidental shooting would have ended in a corpse if the target would have done as they had been ordered ? eg; to lie down on the floor, stop running or whatever other demand the armed response officers had shouted  

I watched the program and felt for the armed response, they went on the job with the expectations they would be facing a suicide bomber, or an armed person with the intent to shoot to kill any one of them.

Rather them than me. 

[shaun4860]

From the point of the officer who fired the first shot in the Mendez killing (what the documentary is about)

He had been told the person they were following was a suspect in the failed bombings.

Said person was on a bus, he then got off the bus, then got back on the bus and carried on.

He got off a few stops later and entered the tube station,

An order was issued not to let him on the train, it was the following firearm team sprang into action.

They jumped the barriers and ran down the escalator.

When they got to the platform he was on the train but a surveillance team member held the door open.

They ran onto the train, the surveillance officer pointed at Mendez and said that’s him.

At this point they identified themselves as armed police, Mendez ignored their instructions and started walking towards the officers.

At this point they opened fire believing they and others around them were about to die.

In those circumstances (man identified as target (rucksack bomber) by surveillance officer) and disobeying instructions I too would have shot him.

In a previous post where a guy was shot in a stairwell, I would have shot him also.

These officers have families to go home to and in a split second have to make a life or death decision.

I back them all the way 👍

[Westley]

7 hours ago, Minky said:

I don't care who I upset but there have been far too many shootings of innocent people by firearms officers. and it is always covered up as a split second judgement decision.  I know that it is a difficult decision but the whole situation is all hyped up with officers shouting and acting like a bunch of cowboys.  There was the electrician on the underground.  The drunk bloke who was a carpenter who had a chair leg wrapped in a sheet which was tied to his crossbar.  The bloke in Hastings who was naked in bed and was shot because he was deemed to have had a large weapon and was shot.  It not good enough.  All sort of swept under the carpet.  far too many.  I'm not saying that a lot of these people weren't Snowy White but a lot didn't need to be shot dead.  I know that police officers don't go to work to kill people but it happens. Generally the police have no credibility with the general public and stuff like this doesn't help.  Whole sections of the public view the police as an enemy.  

AND do you feel equally incensed when a Police Officer is shot   ?

[Agriv8]

31 minutes ago, shaun4860 said:

From the point of the officer who fired the first shot in the Mendez killing (what the documentary is about)

He had been told the person they were following was a suspect in the failed bombings.

Said person was on a bus, he then got off the bus, then got back on the bus and carried on.

He got off a few stops later and entered the tube station,

An order was issued not to let him on the train, it was the following firearm team sprang into action.

They jumped the barriers and ran down the escalator.

When they got to the platform he was on the train but a surveillance team member held the door open.

They ran onto the train, the surveillance officer pointed at Mendez and said that’s him.

At this point they identified themselves as armed police, Mendez ignored their instructions and started walking towards the officers.

At this point they opened fire believing they and others around them were about to die.

In those circumstances (man identified as target (rucksack bomber) by surveillance officer) and disobeying instructions I too would have shot him.

In a previous post where a guy was shot in a stairwell, I would have shot him also.

These officers have families to go home to and in a split second have to make a life or death decision.

I back them all the way 👍

As you say Shaun there would have been clear armed officer shouts most innocent public would comply not doing so would indicate that they are up to no good as an officer you have to make that decision if you are told from hq he is likely to be carrying backpack bomb. In the case of suspected rucksack bomber you are likely within blast radius as are countless innocent others. To those on the fence it’s you were the armed officer Would your decision to pull the trigger change if it was your wife or loved one’s or child next to someone with a pressure cooker full of nuts and bolts and explosives?

the Manchester arena bomber was not intercepted and how many did he kill and  injure ?

I am not condoning some sort of judge dread but there has to be a line yes it’s blurred and fuzzy but I doubt any officer wants to shoot an innocent civilian?

Agriv8

Edited November 12 by Agriv8