hawkfanz Posted October 18, 2016 Report Share Posted October 18, 2016 try telling merseyside police its got nothing to do with them how many guns i store in my cabinet,,i,m sure they wouldn,t let you get away with it in my force area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruno22rf Posted October 18, 2016 Report Share Posted October 18, 2016 No worries, hawkfanz, I would be fascinated to know exactly which law I would be breaking - does it also upset them if you don't have enough guns? What if I just have one gun in a 7 gun cabinet? Nothing to do with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westley Posted October 18, 2016 Report Share Posted October 18, 2016 try telling merseyside police its got nothing to do with them how many guns i store in my cabinet,,i,m sure they wouldn,t let you get away with it in my force area. I too live in Merseyside and have NOT had any problems. I simply removed the dividers for the 7 guns and now have 9 guns, in gun socks, 'nose to tail'. That still leaves room for a further 5 guns, if I so wished. When the local FEO came to inspect the storage arrangements I merely pointed out that I could get some 15 guns in, if I so wished. No comment was made and I have NOT been told how many guns I may hold. My shooting buddy left the 4 gun foam divider in his cabinet (also Merseyside) and had to get another cabinet when he bought the 'fifth' gun ! Remove the divider and then who can say how many guns the cabinet will hold ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impala59 Posted October 18, 2016 Report Share Posted October 18, 2016 (edited) I have a Brattonsound 7 gun cabinet, but have put extra guns in by standing some with the muzzle down. I also fitted a ledge onto the door with clamps - takes two extra guns. Top tip!, my optic bearing full pistol gripped guns could live on the doors relinquishing much needed space, cheers Gordon will be getting on with that post haste! Edited October 18, 2016 by impala59 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingman Posted October 19, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2016 There is no requirement by law for him to store his Air rifle in a cabinet. It's nothing to do with legal requirements it's to keep it safely away from the kids!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walshie Posted October 19, 2016 Report Share Posted October 19, 2016 I have a Brattonsound 7 gun cabinet, but have put extra guns in by standing some with the muzzle down. I also fitted a ledge onto the door with clamps - takes two extra guns. What a great idea. I'm nicking that immediately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buze Posted October 19, 2016 Report Share Posted October 19, 2016 Cue all the guys now hitting the for-sales forum to buy 2 extra guns :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timps Posted October 19, 2016 Report Share Posted October 19, 2016 (edited) No worries, hawkfanz, I would be fascinated to know exactly which law I would be breaking - does it also upset them if you don't have enough guns? What if I just have one gun in a 7 gun cabinet? Nothing to do with them. The law you would be potentially breaking is. "must be stored securely to prevent, so far as is reasonably practicable, unauthorised people taking or using them. Any other person who does not hold a firearm or shotgun certificate is included in the term unauthorised." Seeing as securely is not prescribed in law it is open to interpretation from the FEO and they refer to Home Office issued guidance. Which states: - "When considering whether storage arrangements are secure enough, the police will look at the circumstances of each case and at the overall security arrangements, including the security of the premises where the firearms and ammunition are kept." You have level 1, 2 and 3 security and number of firearms kept is applicable to the level you will need in their eyes. Now here is the thing, it differs between FEO's even in the same force, I have lived at my current address for quite some time and had 4 renewal visits with 3 different FEO's. The first 3 visits no mention of any extra security arrangements. However, on the last recent visit I now have to fit a Yale type night latch on my back door and my 7 gun cabinet was dropped from its 9 gun rating as two could squeeze in at the side, back down to 7 due to the foam dividers. Now here is my conundrum, the FEO has the potential to hold up my renewal, secure my guns or even revoke my certificate based on his recommendations not being followed. My only recourse would be to take him to task in front of a judge which takes time and money. The judge may or may not agree with him but unless my shooting organisation took up the reigns to fight I would be footing the legal bill either way win or lose. For the sake of £9 and 15 mins fitting a crappy latch I have taken the path of least resistance, if I ever need more than 7 guns I will fight the issue at a later date, but I did wonder what would have happened if I had 9 guns at the time. So the issue is subjective to who actually walks through the door and assesses your case and whether you want / have the resources to fight them. My friend had is cabinet knocked back due to the size of anchor bolt heads, so it has got a lot stricter in my area since the last FEO retired. As I said it's a trip to court or immense pressure from a legal team to get them to see common sense. Edited October 19, 2016 by timps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wb123 Posted October 19, 2016 Report Share Posted October 19, 2016 Slightly off topic but what is the criteria for a "gun room", I know that out buildings and garages can't be used but what if I brick built a small gun room inside my garage with a door that met the standards? Contact Wabbitbosher. I was most impressed with his gunroom which appeared reasonably easy to replicate (to be fair without an actual discussion about how he secured it, I felt it would be rude to ask under the circumstances). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted October 20, 2016 Report Share Posted October 20, 2016 (edited) I have two cabinets and currently have extra security as required by my FEO. Unfortunately he has recently retired so I may have to go through the whole negotiation process again depending upon which FEO turns up for my next renewal. The first FEO I dealt with many years ago when transferring my SGC to this area could be a right PitA. At one stage I had to threaten contacting his Chief Constable because of some of the unreasonable hoops he wanted me to jump through. As stated by Timps above, if the requested extra security is cheap and easy it is worth fitting it and going with the flow. Edited October 20, 2016 by TIGHTCHOKE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruno22rf Posted October 20, 2016 Report Share Posted October 20, 2016 The amount of guns inside a single cabinet has no effect whatsoever on it's security - end of. If on the other hand, you decide to buy several guns there could be a point where your FEO might consider that additional security might be a wise move - thieves are more likely to target a house brimming with guns than one with a single weapon .As for fitting a Yale type lock - there could be any number of reasons - maybe your FEO spotted that your lock was easy pickings? (pardon the pun) BTW Guns should always be stored muzzle down where possible to prevent oil/solvents soaking into the woodwork. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timps Posted October 20, 2016 Report Share Posted October 20, 2016 Unfortunately the number of guns a cabinet can hold does effect security. If the FEO has on his paperwork that your cabinet holds 7 guns and you have 9 guns on your ticket where are you storing the other 2 guns? The paperwork is not flexible or reasonable and oblivious to the fact you can actually fit 9 guns in the cabinet it just says you have one cabinet that can fit 7 guns in it and you have 9. So based on that paper trail it is going to flag up, GMP are doing a review on all certs held so it definitely would flag up in my area. If the FEO is happy then ok he will amend the paperwork, but if not then you have a problem and I have heard one argue that too many guns makes it a tight fit so you won't bother putting the gun back in the cabinet. Rubbish argument I know, but she still wouldn't budge the cabinet was designed for x amount and x amount is what you can have. The point is an over zealous FEO could just turn up and secure your guns, a reasonable one would be ok no problem I will amend the paperwork. Regarding the Yale lock, 2 FEO's were happy without it, the door is hardwood, the frame is new, the lock on it is to BS standards and an insurance approved mortice lock. The Yale lock asked for is not BS or insurance approved as anyone can open them with a plastic card and offers very little in the way of security improvement. The point I was making FEO's differ in there interpretation of what is acceptable even within the same force and just because you are ok now don't assume it will continue that way without a fight. My guns have always been stored muzzle down for the last 20 odd years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruno22rf Posted October 20, 2016 Report Share Posted October 20, 2016 (edited) Do the police know how big your cabinet is?? Does it state clearly on the cabinet that this cabinet will only hold a certain amount of guns? Does your FEO actually count the spaces in the foam dividers to see how many "bays" there are?....what if you remove the foam divider? p.s. Just rang my FEO and she informs me that you MAY be advised to improve your security if you have more guns than people normally own but that they have no idea as to your storage capabilities nor is it a question on any paperwork. Edited October 20, 2016 by bruno22rf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted October 20, 2016 Report Share Posted October 20, 2016 In my area, FEOs have counted the divider spaces. I have, in the past, removed the back divider and put new wooden ones down each side, to hold more guns (this was on a previous larger cabinet). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beardo Posted October 20, 2016 Report Share Posted October 20, 2016 mine was happy with whatever i could fit in it - i have a large one that holds 8 or so and a takedown that holds two shotguns happily Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timps Posted October 20, 2016 Report Share Posted October 20, 2016 Do the police know how big your cabinet is?? Does it state clearly on the cabinet that this cabinet will only hold a certain amount of guns? Does your FEO actually count the spaces in the foam dividers to see how many "bays" there are?....what if you remove the foam divider? p.s. Just rang my FEO and she informs me that you MAY be advised to improve your security if you have more guns than people normally own but that they have no idea as to your storage capabilities nor is it a question on any paperwork. I am in the same area as Gordon and yes they do count the foam dividers and if no dividers at the very least they put a figure on how many guns they think the cabinet will hold. It’s on GMP’s internal paperwork that the FEO fills out during inspection, including location of the cabinet and security of the premises.I am not advocating it is the best or widespread practice but it is what GMP have done with me for the last 4 renewal visits. Rational behind it is if you have a single takedown cabinet that can physically hold only one gun at one inspection, then 2 years later have 6 guns, you have either fitted a new cabinet that hasn’t been inspected or are not using a cabinet at all and GMP want to know in either case. My whole point is that different FEO’s have different ideas even within the same area and different areas have also different ideas. So advice given by you is different to advice given by me and the OP is non the wiser as to which is applicable to him. My old FEO probably wouldn't bother as long as they could fit in the cabinet, my new FEO is going by the book, probably because of the total review of GMP certificates and practices that is going on at the moment and everything is by the book over cautious. PS I just had this very discussion in person with my FEO at my last renewal inspection 2 weeks ago hence my post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demonwolf444 Posted October 20, 2016 Report Share Posted October 20, 2016 Play plenty of tetris for some transferable skills. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruno22rf Posted October 20, 2016 Report Share Posted October 20, 2016 Seems to vary considerably then depending on your area/what mood your FEO is in? My licence is up for renewal in Feb and the application went in today - we have a different FEO from last time so I will wait and see what happens Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storm in a teacup Posted October 20, 2016 Report Share Posted October 20, 2016 I got my SGC just over a year ago, during my interview a police officer came around. She had a look in one cabinet, I have a pair of 3 shotgun cabinets that are bolted together as well as bolted into the wall (I got a free one off a mate while waiting the 9 months for my initial grant). Gave it a pull to see if it was secure and that was it. Didn't look in the other I offered and she said "no its ok" I volunteered the information about how it was secured and that it had my air rifles in. I didn't mention that they were sold as 3 gun cabinets and she didn't ask. I'm in Scotland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timps Posted October 20, 2016 Report Share Posted October 20, 2016 In my experience it varies wildly, the first FEO pulled at my cabinet so lightly that it wouldn’t have moved regardless of it bolted to the wall or not. The second never pulled at it at all during the two visits he carried out. Both agreed 7 spaces in the foam inserts and two guns could fit at the side giving 9 in total and wrote the number down on their paperwork. This latest visit the cabinet was subjected to him swinging off it with some force and I had to expose the bolt heads to make sure they were bolts not screws both top and bottom. Then was told it was suitable for 7 guns and I wasn’t allowed to keep my safe key on the same keyring as my car keys. He was an affable enough guy and the most guns I ever seem to have at one time is 5 and my safe key isn’t on my car key ring so just went with the flow of what he wanted regardless on whether I agreed with it or not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortune Posted October 20, 2016 Report Share Posted October 20, 2016 It's all a load of nonsense. At some stage in the past one of the feos who didn't know what the difference between the pointy and the blunt ends was decided that I had a capacity for twenty. Now what criteria he used or how he came to this conclusion is beyond me seeing as we never discussed this or did any sort of stacking or positioning to see how many could be held. A friend has three large cabinets and he was told that he had too many guns. He replied that it didn't matter how many he had because when there had been a serious car accident the whole thing had been cleared up because there was no plod or car to come out to attend. As far as I am concerned as long as they are not available to unauthorized hands then they are secure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshwarrior Posted October 21, 2016 Report Share Posted October 21, 2016 So are you sayin GMP will only allow you to store 7 shotguns in an RL7+ cabinet as it's designed for 7 rifles but has 9 slots in the foam but that metal box is used for the st9+ shotgun cabinet that's designed to take 9 shotguns but has 11 foam slots? But could hold 20 guns if organised correctly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timps Posted October 21, 2016 Report Share Posted October 21, 2016 No I am saying GMP put a figure of how many guns the FEO thinks the cabinet will hold and that is subjective to the FEO on the day. My original FEO counted the slots to which in my cabinet there is 7, but then concluded there was room for 2 more squeezed in the side with no slots due to the depth of cabinet. My last visit it is now back down to the slots available to which there are 7 and he is not counting guns that could fit in extra but not in slots. My point is GMP put a figure of how many guns they think your cabinet will hold, that is how many guns they then agree you have adequate security for at the time of your visit. He could quite easily have said any number, but GMP made a point of telling me I have a cabinet that holds X amount of guns and if you have slots they seem to use this as an indication. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted October 21, 2016 Report Share Posted October 21, 2016 No I am saying GMP put a figure of how many guns the FEO thinks the cabinet will hold and that is subjective to the FEO on the day. My original FEO counted the slots to which in my cabinet there is 7, but then concluded there was room for 2 more squeezed in the side with no slots due to the depth of cabinet. My last visit it is now back down to the slots available to which there are 7 and he is not counting guns that could fit in extra but not in slots. My point is GMP put a figure of how many guns they think your cabinet will hold, that is how many guns they then agree you have adequate security for at the time of your visit. He could quite easily have said any number, but GMP made a point of telling me I have a cabinet that holds X amount of guns and if you have slots they seem to use this as an indication. This sort of thing will continue until someone stands up to his FEO and asks for clarification. It should still come down to the individual SGC holder being responsible for the security of his weapons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted October 21, 2016 Report Share Posted October 21, 2016 This sort of thing will continue until someone stands up to his FEO and asks for clarification. It should still come down to the individual SGC holder being responsible for the security of his weapons. I couldn't agree more. What amazes me is why people accept this nonsense, it's about time people challenged these attempts to micro manage firearms licensing. By accepting it people do the shooting community as a whole a terrible disservice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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