Guest Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 Debating? No. Should I? No everyone is entitled to an opinion,please let me know what BASC said when you find out, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 No everyone is entitled to an opinion,please let me know what BASC said when you find out, I am off to the playpen now to view my new tool. ATB Youngie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 (edited) Interesting debate.....All I can say without fear of contradiction is that when I used to do volunteer work for the RSPCA ( for over 15 years ) we used to get plenty of foxes in annually with .22 lr or 12g (No 5 or 6) injuries...but never any with .22 hornet, .202 .204, .223, Any ballistics experts explain why this might be. ? Edited January 27, 2015 by Fisherman Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jayDT10 Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 Sorry yes My Opinion and perhaps I should have put the word "traditional" in the statement. I would willing to stake my mortgage that if you go round letting off a .22lr round on a fox more will run off than you will drop. ( That's my opinion !) would you shoot a dog with a .22lr. In my opinion with a statements like that you haven't a clue . Placing wagers like that I'm surprised your a home owner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hawkfanz Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 think I,ll go with fm on that one, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rim Fire Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 So what is a legal caliber for fox as allready been said on my 243 it says vermin and any other lawful quarry well if fox is not vermin where do i stand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WelshMike Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 So what is a legal caliber for fox as allready been said on my 243 it says vermin and any other lawful quarry well if fox is not vermin where do i stand As always seems to be the case the different forces view it differently. For example Durham do not view foxes as vermin even though this conflicts with the dictionary definition of vermin: Wild animals which are believed to be harmful to crops, farm animals, or game, or which carrydisease, e.g. rodents: As you have AOLQ on your ticket and a fox is covered by this you shouldnt have any problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 Dear All, Lets not forget (and not trying to teach grandma to suck eggs) we have to conform to the conditions on our certificate, and that's why BASC lobbied for AOLQ to be added to certificates, it makes life easier for shooters. But if you have vermin on your licence then you can shoot a fox. For the police to take you to court for breaking conditions for shooting a fox because its not specifically mentioned on your licence, (if it only reads vermin) the police would have to prove in court that fox are not vermin....! David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted January 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 Now at last some common sense is starting to shine through and not the fear of man lol. U. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 I phoned BASC on Monday and got a different opinion from the firearms guy. But a good debate anyway. ATB Youngie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoot and be safe Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 Does that mean that if you have vermin on your FAC (air) you can shoot a fox with that? Again I don't have one but would think the grant of a FAC (air) would have similar conditions as full FAC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
team tractor Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 Lads Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mentalmac Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 Does that mean that if you have vermin on your FAC (air) you can shoot a fox with that? Again I don't have one but would think the grant of a FAC (air) would have similar conditions as full FAC Incidentally, my licence says: "The .22 Air rifle and sound moderator shall be used for shooting vermin and ground game and for zeroing on land over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot" Same wording as my HMR (until the point where it says "Land deemed suitable by the chief officer of police for the area where the land is situated") My guess is that if you shot a fox with a .22 air and it was maimed and not killed and you were caught out, you would be prosecuted for causing unnecessary suffering to the animal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonesbach Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 The real reason some forces are fussy how they list stuff is they just don't want any claim or compliciancy should a claim of cruelty be made against a licence holder. In short they are covering their bottoms. Now if someone here wants to get their panties all knotted up over it go ahead. Personally I think you ought to go for a walk with a 22 but that's just my way lol. You know what, I just don't care. Do you know why I don't care? I will tell you. They can take them off you when ever they want. Now in some that gives rise to fear and then fear turns to aggression. Let them have them I say and I will reach for the bow or airgun. Still may have a shotgun. Sprags even. I don't care enough to prostate my self to the state. The same state that can not wait to tax and fine me at every turn. I just don't care, OK. U. Great attitude for a firearms certificate holder....!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepasty Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) blimey guys.... are you really unsure what the conditions mean on your FAC?! Why on earth havent you spoken to your firearms department immediately to find out what exactly the conditions mean and what you can shoot? They are the only people that can give you the definitive answer as they applied them. Personally when granted my FAC I spoke to my department and did as above and if any wording changes on my FAC after a variation or the like I'll speak to them again to confirm. There are no grey areas if you do this, the only grey areas come from speaking to the wrong people! Edited January 28, 2015 by thepasty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rim Fire Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 I would rather shoot a fox with a .22lr with the right shot placement than shoot a fox with a shotgun running away from me and how many people on here has done that just out doing a bit of rabbiting and a fox gets up even 40 yds away more fox get shot at by shotgun users than anything Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sako751sg Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 Dear All, Lets not forget (and not trying to teach grandma to suck eggs) we have to conform to the conditions on our certificate, and that's why BASC lobbied for AOLQ to be added to certificates, it makes life easier for shooters. But if you have vermin on your licence then you can shoot a fox. For the police to take you to court for breaking conditions for shooting a fox because its not specifically mentioned on your licence, (if it only reads vermin) the police would have to prove in court that fox are not vermin....! David Hopefully,some folk who didnt know better will now believe what they are being informed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougy Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) I would (note please I say "I would") NOT take a shot unless i was sure as far as humanly possible under the circumstances, that the intended quarry whether vermin, game or whatever you folks wish to call your chosen target would have a clean and quick end to its life. If I call a miss/not a clean kill i am ready for a follow up shot immediately , I also give myself a right big kick up the rear for missing or failing to ensure a clean kill. I does happen, I, and I'm sure many other folks are far from being perfect marksmen or lady's. Oh! i have vermin and AOLQ on my ticket, Maybe I shoot too many, thats why i do have a few misses Maybe if I just shot the one fox a year then my 100% record for perfect shooting may impress the odd one or 2 members on here hey !!! who knows Edited January 28, 2015 by Dougy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) A very valid point, the key issue must be to get a quick clean kill regardless of the quarry.As we say in our Respect for Quarry Code of Practice: Having positively identified your quarry as being legally shootable, you should then take a shot only if you are sure 1) it is safe to do so2)your gun/cartridge combination is appropriate for the type and size of quarry you are shooting3) the target quarry is within your personal shooting range capability4) you are confident of killing the bird or animal4) you (or somebody else) will be able to retrieve the shot bird or animal. David Edited January 28, 2015 by David BASC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good shot? Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) Thankyou for the debate There is no specific law preventing the use of .22 or .17hmr against foxes. There is no case law defining foxes as vermin. Your police force determine what you can and cannot shoot with whatever calibre. Get caught trying to be a smart **** and interpreting the wording of your license in ways which you know go against the policy of the issuing authority and you may lose your license, they are judge and jury. Best Regards Youngie I believe the above to be correct. Just had fox and AOLQ condition added for my 17 hmr as opposed to Vermin and ground game. Under Merseyside, fox is not covered by 'vermin' condition. 'Fox' must be on your ticket. Did not ask for .22 LR to be included even though I believe it to be well able under the right circumstances. We must comply with the conditions stated on licence and if you want clarification check it out with FEO. At the end of the day they gave you the licence with the conditions and the conditions were accepted on receipt. No one wants to be a test case for what is legal or not. Edited January 28, 2015 by Good shot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) In my opinion with a statements like that you haven't a clue . Placing wagers like that I'm surprised your a home owner [/quo 45 years a shooter and shot more foxes than you've seen sonny.! I think I know what I'm talking about...and so do you! Edited January 28, 2015 by Fisherman Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reggiegun Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 Incidentally, my licence says: "The .22 Air rifle and sound moderator shall be used for shooting vermin and ground game and for zeroing on land over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot" Same wording as my HMR (until the point where it says "Land deemed suitable by the chief officer of police for the area where the land is situated") My guess is that if you shot a fox with a .22 air and it was maimed and not killed and you were caught out, you would be prosecuted for causing unnecessary suffering to the animal? All that means is your ticket is open for FAC air, but closed for your HMR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 Dear All, Lets not forget (and not trying to teach grandma to suck eggs) we have to conform to the conditions on our certificate, and that's why BASC lobbied for AOLQ to be added to certificates, it makes life easier for shooters. But if you have vermin on your licence then you can shoot a fox. For the police to take you to court for breaking conditions for shooting a fox because its not specifically mentioned on your licence, (if it only reads vermin) the police would have to prove in court that fox are not vermin....! David Clears it up quite nicely....but and its a big but... if you chose not to use an efficient calibre on even the humble Fox and leave it maimed you could leave yourself open to serious consequences. Why take the risk of a .22 defecting off a bone or even the skull...im sure we have all shot rabbits with a chest shot that have gone astray and the things just bolted off to die somewhere in abject pain. Its all about having some respect for your quarry and ensuring the Kill is humane and instant. Why take the risk by using an unsuitable calibre ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 Yes, good point, hence my post 144 - range , as well as shot placement,is everything with the smaller calibers David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 A very valid point, the key issue must be to get a quick clean kill regardless of the quarry.As we say in our Respect for Quarry Code of Practice: Having positively identified your quarry as being legally shootable, you should then take a shot only if you are sure 1) it is safe to do so 2)your gun/cartridge combination is appropriate for the type and size of quarry you are shooting 3) the target quarry is within your personal shooting range capability 4) you are confident of killing the bird or animal 4) you (or somebody else) will be able to retrieve the shot bird or animal. David David Thank you for your replies. )your gun/cartridge combination is appropriate for the type and size of quarry you are shooting The police believe in some area's that the 22lr is not the correct calibre for foxes as you know they work of the home office guidelines,and this is a guide. I don't want test the law so i will leave fox shooting to the appropriate gun and ammunition I.E my 223 calibre. Many Thanks Youngie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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