Lead - the invisible killer

[andrewluke]

watch the news today!

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-34861602

[DaveT]

Not exactly a well researched or lacking bias is it, morons.

[JDog]

Complete tosh of course. Until these scientists can come up with 100,000 carcases all of which can be shown to have died from lead poisoning the 'evidence' will never be reliable.

 

Aware of the dangers of starting a thread about cats I will point out that cats kill many millions of birds every year.

[andrewluke]

Complete tosh of course. Until these scientists can come up with 100,000 carcases all of which can be shown to have died from lead poisoning the 'evidence' will never be reliable.

 

Aware of the dangers of starting a thread about cats I will point out that cats kill many millions of birds every year.

http://www.rspb.org.uk/makeahomeforwildlife/advice/gardening/unwantedvisitors/cats/birddeclines.aspx

[Guest stevo]

Not exactly a well researched or lacking bias is it, morons.

It dosnt matter how or what facts are in it. The damage is done . And bythe looks of who is jumping on the " ban lead because its bad " band wagon . It seems to getting quite a fan club .

Edited November 26, 2015 by stevo

[matone]

All true ,but since when did reality & fact affect legislation ! They shout louder than we do ,so will ultimately prevail.Jusy look at the response to the current online petition,pitiful.

Edited November 26, 2015 by matone

[Scully]

It dosnt matter how or what facts are in it. The damage is done . And bythe looks of who is jumping on the " ban lead because its bad " band wagon . It seems to getting quite a fan club .

This. It's out there now in the public domain on the biggest nationwide platform we have in this country; whether it's true or not.

As usual, and at best, we will now pursue a belated campaign of damage limitation, trying to get our voices heard amongst a multitude of organisations ready and willing to milk the opportunity to its extreme and a general public all too ready to accept at face value what they are fed.

[DaveyTed]

Perhaps George, Proper Cartridges, should stop worrying about how to polish lead shot and start thing about making a good alternative to lead; ideally with a fibre/degradeable wad because there's bound to be a survey published soon about plastic wads littering the countryside.

[FalconFN]

I think this is a key quote:

 

"But the WWT recently carried out tests on just over 100 ducks purchased as "locally shot" from suppliers in England and found that more than three quarters were killed using lead."

 

We as shooters need to take some responsibility for making it easy for them.

[robbiep]

I think this is a key quote:

 

"But the WWT recently carried out tests on just over 100 ducks purchased as "locally shot" from suppliers in England and found that more than three quarters were killed using lead."

 

We as shooters need to take some responsibility for making it easy for them.

Agreed. I am regularly hugely disappointed by the number of people who seem to think "It's ok, only a couple of cartridges for duck, saves me buying bismuth at £1 a pop".

 

To me, evidence of someone using lead on duck/wildfowl should be instant loss of certificate - maybe then people would start to comply with the LAW. Because that's what it is, and we are supposed to be law-abiding, responsible people.

 

We either police our own - vigorously - or lead will be taken out of the equation by others.

Unfortunately, it may now have reached that point. Non-compliance has been a problem for so long, with a lot of 'bad apples', that, to some, we have shown that we will only comply when compulsion is brought in.

[MrM]

Am I missing something here - doesn't the angling community still use leads weights? Wasn't there a similar thing some years back claiming thousands of birds died from eating discarded weights?

Edited November 26, 2015 by MrM

[Guest stevo]

Am I missing something here - doesn't the angling community still use leads weights? Wasn't there a similar thing some years back claiming thousands of birds died from eating discarded weights?

All lead free nowdays . Sure of it .

[robbiep]

Am I missing something here - doesn't the angling community still use leads weights? Wasn't there a similar thing some years back claiming thousands of birds died from eating discarded weights?

 

Lead weights for fishing are banned in the range of 0.06 to 28.35g (size 6 shot up to 1 ounce), and have been so banned for quite a while.

[Fal]

On the foreshore and popular shooting areas, the lead these ducks, swans and geese are ingesting is old lead, shot a long time ago. They will continue to do so for many, many years!!! There is no way of stopping it.

 

I find the wildfowling community the best at sticking to using non-toxic shot. Ducks that are being bought to do these "tests" are normally from shooting estates and duck drives, I'm not tarring all these people with the same brush, but everybody needs to use non toxic for wildfowl, we as the shooting community are giving the researchers the ammo they need to find fault in the ban and us.

 

For the sake of a few quid, I know a lot of older guns aren't steel proofed and have issues with steel shot, but there are steel loads out there as good as lead now, there is no excuse with the old "steel is rubbish" argument.

 

I think it's only a matter of time before lead is banned totally, I hope I'm wrong, but I can see it on the horizon!

[butchdickason]

The damage is done, no matter about lack of evidence.

 

Butch

[kippylawkid]

Just read this on BBC news site. Hope we have the clout to fight it. Not sure the BBC is always as balanced as it should be.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-34861602

[panoma1]

Same old same old! This is a re-emergence of the ongoing argument, with no new facts or evidence and again based on a report full of speculative opinion, conjecture, theory and personal bias, that contains little or no scientific weight, the professor quoted is known to have a special interest in ornithology.........he's a "birdy boy"........... the emotional, unscientific and unproven report to which he attempts to give credability is the one that originally started the scaremongering about lead shot written by the WWT and RSPB......surprise, surprise, they are birdy people too! Coincidence? I don't think so! His opinion can hardly be seen as independant, and stinks of bias towards the fascist bird protectionist organisations unproven, unscientific and emotion based views.

 

Oh! and it seems he has some history, connection with Brian May.....nuff said?

[David BASC]

Dear All,

 

Here is some information from BASC on this issue, more will be on our web site should the current situation evolve:

 

BASC research shows that this guidance, coupled with Swedish data, reveals that:

• There is no risk to those who do not eat shot game meat more than once a week throughout the year
• There is no risk to those eating small game if the pellet and pellet channel are cut out
• There is no risk to those eating large game if meat is cut out 10cms either side of the bullet channel and from around bullet fragments.

Research has also provided evidence that although individual waterfowl can be affected by lead shot deposition there is no impact on the overall populations of birds; their conservation status remains unchanged.

 

David

 

PS the guidance referred to is the FSA's current guidance on eating game www.food.gov.uk/science/advice-to-frequent-eaters-of-game-shot-with-lead

 

D

Edited November 26, 2015 by David BASC

[malkiserow]

Dear All,

 

Here is some information from BASC on this issue, more will be on our web site should the current situation evolve:

 

BASC research shows that this guidance, coupled with Swedish data, reveals that:

• There is no risk to those who do not eat shot game meat more than once a week throughout the year
• There is no risk to those eating small game if the pellet and pellet channel are cut out
• There is no risk to those eating large game if meat is cut out 10cms either side of the bullet channel and from around bullet fragments.

Research has also provided evidence that although individual waterfowl can be affected by lead shot deposition there is no impact on the overall populations of birds; their conservation status remains unchanged.

 

David

 

PS the guidance referred to is the FSA's current guidance on eating game www.food.gov.uk/science/advice-to-frequent-eaters-of-game-shot-with-lead

 

D

 

Hello David, Thanks for the update. Is BASC tackling the BBC over this report today?

[robbiep]

Same old same old! This is a re-emergence of the ongoing argument, with no new facts or evidence and again based on a report full of speculative opinion, conjecture, theory and personal bias, that contains little or no scientific weight, the professor quoted is known to have a special interest in ornithology.........he's a "birdy boy"........... the emotional, unscientific and unproven report to which he attempts to give credability is the one that originally started the scaremongering about lead shot written by the WWT and RSPB......surprise, surprise, they are birdy people too! Coincidence? I don't think so! His opinion can hardly be seen as independant, and stinks of bias towards the fascist bird protectionist organisations unproven, unscientific and emotion based views.

 

Oh! and it seems he has some history, connection with Brian May.....nuff said?

Stop trying to play the man. Making it personal is a strategy doomed to failure.

 

 

I think this is a key quote:

 

"But the WWT recently carried out tests on just over 100 ducks purchased as "locally shot" from suppliers in England and found that more than three quarters were killed using lead."

 

We as shooters need to take some responsibility for making it easy for them.

 

If that is the case, then there is a major compliance issue - whether that be on shooting estates or wildfowling (more likely to be from estates, however, most fowlers don't sell).

 

Rather than playing the man, try directing some of your ire towards those estates where they are either non-compliant, or are turning a blind eye to what the the guns (££££) are using.

 

(EDIT : comment about 'directing your ire' is for 'panoma1', not 'FalconFN')

Edited November 26, 2015 by robbiep

[Underdog]

It will kill thousands of birds, they just been shot!

[old'un]

Mmmm the RSPB need we say more.

"People who eat wild game regularly, particularly young children, are at risk of some adverse effects," he told BBC News. "It could affect their mental development."

Yes i often see young kids coming out of their local chippy with a bag of chips and pigeon and then sitting down (regularly) for a dinner of duck or pheasant, I've been eating game for 50+ years why don't they do some real studies on people who consume game.

Its a backdoor attack on shooting.

[panoma1]

It is up to the authorities who made the law to enforce the law, it is up to us as individuals to comply with the law, we are not jointly responsible for all other shooters. People who shoot ducks and geese with lead shot in England and Wales, people who allow ducks and geese to be shot with lead in England and Wales, people who buy and sell ducks shot with lead in England and Wales should be caught and prosecuted, if this is not possible why was it enacted in the first place? It don't take a genius to work it out!

 

The bird extremists in a calculated attack on shooting managed to get the unnecessary 'species specific' element included in English and Welsh law in an over compliance with the AUWA.....lack of enforcement resulted in areas of poor compliance which now allows them to attack shooting further by pushing for a complete ban on lead shot.

[DeepThought]

I think the article shows a complete lack of perspective. Obviously 100k poisoned birds is not a good thing but it is a relatively low figure compared to those lost to things like cats and road deaths.

 

Presumably these are mostly wetland birds churning up lead shot from before the ban, therefore surely the ban on lead for wildfowling is doing everything it can, I can't see what help banning lead over land will achieve.

 

Personally I'd prefer a change to the law to reflect the Scottish system where the land you shoot over determines the type of shot you use rather than the quarry species. Currently in England could quite legally shoot a pigeon with lead where the shot falls over wetlands but would have to use steel to shoot a duck over a field.

Edited November 26, 2015 by DeepThought

[panoma1]

Stop trying to play the man. Making it personal is a strategy doomed to failure.

 

 

 

 

If that is the case, then there is a major compliance issue - whether that be on shooting estates or wildfowling (more likely to be from estates, however, most fowlers don't sell).

 

Rather than playing the man, try directing some of your ire towards those estates where they are either non-compliant, or are turning a blind eye to what the the guns (££££) are using.

 

(EDIT : comment about 'directing your ire' is for 'panoma1', not 'FalconFN')

For directing my ire.....see my most recent post! As for 'playing the man' is it not right to expose the individuals motives to question if there are suspicions which could point to the corruption of collusion with our aggressors?