Side by Side Club

[Penelope]

I am due to receive a very decent inheritance and have been seriously considering a quality Dickson trigger plate round action. The uncertainty regarding suitable and cost effective ammunition has scuppered that plan.

Plastic pogo sticks all round, now. Best start practicing my 'Yee Haa's' 'smash em's', back slaps and high fives as the age of the gentleman's gun is fast disappearing.It's enough to make you want to pack it all in.

[enfieldspares]

11 minutes ago, Penelope said:

I am due to receive a very decent inheritance and have been seriously considering a quality Dickson trigger plate round action. The uncertainty regarding suitable and cost effective ammunition has scuppered that plan.

Plastic pogo sticks all round, now. Best start practicing my 'Yee Haa's' 'smash em's', back slaps and high fives as the age of the gentleman's gun is fast disappearing.It's enough to make you want to pack it all in.

Quality guns in near 100% condition with long stocks will always, regardless of much anything else always command a high price. They always will.

As to whether that's by American and continental buyers or folk with deep pockets or private bismuth quarries is another matter. But what will crash will be mid-range guns. The lower quality end 2 1/2" chambered British boxlock ejectors that will follow the same downward value track as their non-ejector siblings did in the 2000s. 

So buy you Dixon now but buy it because you want to use it and to enjoy it and when you do buy it buy one that is in 100% or as near as 100% condition. 

Edited February 26, 2020 by enfieldspares

[Blackpowder]

14 minutes ago, Penelope said:

I am due to receive a very decent inheritance and have been seriously considering a quality Dickson trigger plate round action. The uncertainty regarding suitable and cost effective ammunition has scuppered that plan.

Plastic pogo sticks all round, now. Best start practicing my 'Yee Haa's' 'smash em's', back slaps and high fives as the age of the gentleman's gun is fast disappearing.It's enough to make you want to pack it all in.

I remember your compliments about my Dickson R/A some years ago,  best thing is to consult Dicksons themselves for genuine advice.   I am a bit sad that my investment with damascus barrels has been rendered worthless but in the meantime will continue to enjoy its perfect balance and superb handling.  

Blackpowder

[JohnfromUK]

13 minutes ago, Penelope said:

The uncertainty regarding suitable and cost effective ammunition has scuppered that plan.

You are right in that there is 'uncertainty'.  However, I believe it will be resolved by 2 1/2" compatible ammunition.  How effective that ammunition (and what it will cost) will be remains to be seen, but my guess is that for 'normal' style shooting, it will be at the very least adequate. 

I believe bismuth is currently available in 2 1/2, but hard to find a local supplier, but (for me anyway) prohibitively expensive.  I keep a box of bismuth in 2 3/4" (which is widely available locally though still expensive) and use it in an AyA where I have to use non toxic (very rarely for me).

1 minute ago, Blackpowder said:

I am a bit sad that my investment with damascus barrels has been rendered worthless but in the meantime will continue to enjoy its perfect balance and superb handling. 

I am not sure what the issue is with Damascus.  IF the shot is contained within a wad (as I believe it must be for steel) I can't see there being a problem.  I intend to discuss this with my gunmaker friend next time I see him.  My Damascus barrels are in nitro and passed the same proof test as steel barrels.  If there is no contact with the shot, I'm not sure where the 'risk' lies?  I do wonder if it is just a "not to be used in twist or Damascus barrels" warning on the box - which is printed on most ammunition anyway.

[Penelope]

10 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

You are right in that there is 'uncertainty'.  However, I believe it will be resolved by 2 1/2" compatible ammunition.  How effective that ammunition (and what it will cost) will be remains to be seen, but my guess is that for 'normal' style shooting, it will be at the very least adequate. 

I believe bismuth is currently available in 2 1/2, but hard to find a local supplier, but (for me anyway) prohibitively expensive.  I keep a box of bismuth in 2 3/4" (which is widely available locally though still expensive) and use it in an AyA where I have to use non toxic (very rarely for me).

Bismuth is just too expensive for anything where a few shots may be had. Ok for fowling, but steel or one of the super shot is equal or better, cheaper and readily available (steel).

It's the good day's pigeon shooting that the price of bismuth would stop, as I won't shoot them with lead and chuck em in the ditch, as there will come a point where games dealers will stop excepting them.

Edited February 26, 2020 by Penelope

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, Penelope said:

Bismuth is just too expensive for anything where a few shots may be had.

Agreed, but steel in 2 1/2" isn't currently available, but I believe will be.  It may prove to be a bit limited in range though?  I'm going to wait, then try some.

[Penelope]

1 minute ago, JohnfromUK said:

Agreed, but steel in 2 1/2" isn't currently available, but I believe will be.  It may prove to be a bit limited in range though?  I'm going to wait, then try some.

I'm being a little disingenuous, as I can and do use steel, both standard and HP in my English 3" magnum,and could use that for more of my shooting, it's just that the vast majority of my shooting is with my 2 1/2" English boxlock, which I have had since I was 21.

[panoma1]

We have to remember that the proof authorities are always going to cover their backsides regarding the advice they give! It will always be based on the one size fits all, 100%, take no chance, absolutely worst case scenario....rather than on case by case basis.

I am pretty sure that most sound guns (even with Damascus barrels) in good condition, would be fine to use with most appropriate, commercially loaded cartridges, provided the bores were protected from damage from hard non toxic shot!

Edited February 26, 2020 by panoma1

[JohnfromUK]

4 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

I am pretty sure that most sound guns (even with Damascus barrels) in good condition, would be fine to use with most appropriate, commercially loaded cartridges, provided the bores were protected from damage from hard non toxic shot!

That is my feeling as well, but I will talk to my gunmaker friend to see if there is something I'm not aware of.

[enfieldspares]

Steel is in fact soft (as much as iron can be "soft") soft iron. Damascus steel barrels are softer iron. The shot column as it passes up the bore of the gun is compressed by the walls of the barrel.When soft iron shot meets softer iron damascus steel barrels have a guess which on the two will win the tussle? It's why pressures that might split conventional steel barrels that we use today often merely bulge old damascus barrels.

[JohnfromUK]

20 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

Steel is in fact soft (as much as iron can be "soft") soft iron. Damascus steel barrels are softer iron. The shot column as it passes up the bore of the gun is compressed by the walls of the barrel.When soft iron shot meets softer iron damascus steel barrels have a guess which on the two will win the tussle? It's why pressures that might split conventional steel barrels that we use today often merely bulge old damascus barrels.

My understanding is that the wads used with steel (agreed strictly iron) entirely prevents contact with the barrels (unlike lead, where contact is allowed and is normal with fibre wads), so I'm not sure that there is an issue.  I intend to take a gunmaker's advice as and when suitable length cased cartridges become available.

[clumber]

I asked this question , simple enough 

Dear sir/madam, I'm enquiring about Bismuth shot and its suitability for use in Damascus barrelled guns.
I know that some manufacturers of lead shot competition cartridges state on the packaging that they're not suitable for use in Damascus barrelled guns, possibly due to the high velocities.
Also I know that steel is unstable for Damascus but what about your Copper Zenith loads?
I would be grateful if you could advise me on a suitable cartridge for Damascus.

 

This is what I got  back  -

Thank you for your email enquiry, I have spoken to our Production manager who has given the below response. 

This would be dependent on the current proof marks on your gun and you would be more informed by speaking with the Birmingham Proof House.

As far as the Bismuth cartridges are concerned, they are manufactured to CIP controls and states that the average pressure will not exceed 740bar and an individual of 850bar, the case length used in the 12-gauge Bismuth range is 67mm and 70mm dependant on load.  Zenith is again manufactured to CIP the Zenith range is 70mm chamber length and does not exceed 740 Bar.

We would like to thank you for your interest in the **** ***** Brand.

Kindest Regards

 

I don't think I'll be pushing bismuth through this just yet. 

[GBS]

4 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

Quality guns in near 100% condition with long stocks will always, regardless of much anything else always command a high price. They always will.

As to whether that's by American and continental buyers or folk with deep pockets or private bismuth quarries is another matter. But what will crash will be mid-range guns. The lower quality end 2 1/2" chambered British boxlock ejectors that will follow the same downward value track as their non-ejector siblings did in the 2000s. 

So buy you Dixon now but buy it because you want to use it and to enjoy it and when you do buy it buy one that is in 100% or as near as 100% condition. 

Exactly this. Buy something that has global market appeal. Originality is key and collectors, especially our American cousins, want guns that are (in specification if not finish) as they left the maker. Therefore, not shortened or sleeved barrels,  ideally original barrels or replacements by the maker. Sensible, modern stock dimensions and no cracks or pins. No polished or re-coloured actions. 

Now might be the time to pick up the gun you always wanted...

GBS

 

[Smokersmith]

1 hour ago, clumber said:

I asked this question , simple enough 

Dear sir/madam, I'm enquiring about Bismuth shot and its suitability for use in Damascus barrelled guns.
I know that some manufacturers of lead shot competition cartridges state on the packaging that they're not suitable for use in Damascus barrelled guns, possibly due to the high velocities.
Also I know that steel is unstable for Damascus but what about your Copper Zenith loads?
I would be grateful if you could advise me on a suitable cartridge for Damascus.

 

This is what I got  back  -

Thank you for your email enquiry, I have spoken to our Production manager who has given the below response. 

This would be dependent on the current proof marks on your gun and you would be more informed by speaking with the Birmingham Proof House.

As far as the Bismuth cartridges are concerned, they are manufactured to CIP controls and states that the average pressure will not exceed 740bar and an individual of 850bar, the case length used in the 12-gauge Bismuth range is 67mm and 70mm dependant on load.  Zenith is again manufactured to CIP the Zenith range is 70mm chamber length and does not exceed 740 Bar.

We would like to thank you for your interest in the **** ***** Brand.

Kindest Regards

 

I don't think I'll be pushing bismuth through this just yet. 

Bismuth is the kindest material to use in a Damascus barreled gun …. softer than lead, so as long as your gun is proofed for the load … it will be 100% fine.

Please also bear in mind that Copper Zenith loads are essentially lead, so not suitable in 5 years time.

[theshootist]

7 hours ago, Dibble said:

This is why Holts are restricting access to information on past sales, Diggory Hadoke was complaining on VGJ about people looking up old prices then feeling a dealers markup was excessive.

Ha! I wondered why the search function had disappeared. It was a useful tool. Hey ho. 

[theshootist]

7 hours ago, DUNKS said:

My Armas Garbi is up for sale on this forum an almost unused gun made in 1977 Holland Royal copy. You could get it for £1000. Read about Garbi in your book and buy it!

I will, I will! 

[kevin55]

9 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

My understanding is that the wads used with steel (agreed strictly iron) entirely prevents contact with the barrels (unlike lead, where contact is allowed and is normal with fibre wads), so I'm not sure that there is an issue.  I intend to take a gunmaker's advice as and when suitable length cased cartridges become available.

Pressure is apparently the issue with damascus barrels

[Gunman]

On 26/02/2020 at 15:20, theshootist said:

Ha! I wondered why the search function had disappeared. It was a useful tool. Hey ho. 

Have you looked at the price's Hadoke has/had on his guns .I'm not surprised .  

[Dibble]

48 minutes ago, Gunman said:

Have you looked at the price's Hadoke has/had on his guns .I'm not surprised .  

Hmmm... how much do you pay for the opinion of an "expert" be they a RFD, an Estate Agent or a second hand car garage. I'm sure Mr Hadoke sees himself more as an Art Dealer or Antiques expert matching a carefully sourced product to a discerning  Clientèle but all rely on the worry that you might make a bad choice buying privately and for a premium to them you can reduce the risk. 

 

[theshootist]

2 hours ago, Gunman said:

Have you looked at the price's Hadoke has/had on his guns .I'm not surprised .  

I thought he was more interested in the international market than the UK because rod the opportunity for a healthy mark up! Good luck to him. I've certainly enjoyed his books. 

[Gunman]

58 minutes ago, theshootist said:

I thought he was more interested in the international market than the UK because rod the opportunity for a healthy mark up! Good luck to him. I've certainly enjoyed his books. 

May be but I bet you dont buy many guns of him .International buyers look at all dealers and their prices . This I know as we were selling guns all across Europe and the US  when he was still working as a teacher .

 

[Lloyd90]

What do you think of this then lads? 

[Old farrier]

Looks very nice although I would have to pick it up and see what it came up like before parting with the £££ after I’d haggled a bit 

[Lloyd90]

10 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Looks very nice although I would have to pick it up and see what it came up like before parting with the £££ after I’d haggled a bit 

That’s the problem with gun sales! What do you look for when it “comes up” ?

Edited February 28, 2020 by Lloyd90

[Old farrier]

4 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

That’s the problem with gun sales! What do you look for when it “comes up” ?

How it handles (feels) the sight picture balance 

weather it feels right

Stock length is important in a double trigger ss with a straight stock 

we are all different and like and dislike different things go and give it a try