14 million in poverty

[Vince Green]

3 hours ago, Retsdon said:

I've just been browsing some UK employment websites and, for me anyway, it's startling how low the average wage is that's on offer for unskilled or semi-skilled work. 

Part of that (and I don't want to open a separate discussion on European immigration) is because the bottom end of the job market is flooded with unbelievably cheap migrant workers who are not only happy, they are delighted to work for wages that no British man with a family to support could ever survive on.

Its no surprise that the Brexit vote was highest in areas that should have been traditional  Labour strongholds. The working man has bourne the brunt of unfair job competition and if they complained they were called racist or BNP scum by the VERY PEOPLE who should have been fighting their corner.. 

Edited November 13, 2018 by Vince Green

[The Heron]

In 1960 my parents were earning half the equivalent as was then the value of the £15,000 mentioned poverty level but still survived there are some genuine people that do need help but to the rest  I would suggest get of your lazy **** and do some form of work and get at least one job what ever to survive.

[Mice!]

1 hour ago, Vince Green said:

Part of that (and I don't want to open a separate discussion on European immigration) is because the bottom end of the job market is flooded with unbelievably cheap migrant workers who are not only happy, they are delighted to work for wages that no British man with a family to support could ever survive on.

Its no surprise that the Brexit vote was highest in areas that should have been traditional  Labour strongholds. The working man has bourne the brunt of unfair job competition and if they complained they were called racist or BNP scum by the VERY PEOPLE who should have been fighting their corner.. 

Its not just that, if you look at something like machining, and there is still a lot around, companies will pay pretty much the same as others nearby so they have no reason to be competitive, the staff will generally stay put thinking better the devil you know.

This will likely go for most manual trades as well.

[pinfireman]

8 hours ago, henry d said:

Exactly, in part, White people comprise 87% or over 55 million of the 63 million in the UK

Social metrics commission who are independent, Summary report here

66.5 million as of this month, according to ONS figures.

[Lord Geordie]

16 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

I thought most people got that just fine. 

No one suggested that he has had 4 kids to avoid work, And I doubt very much the government is throwing money at him and his Mrs and they’re living it up in luxury. 

TT genuinely sounds like a hard working bloke from his many posts. 

 

The issue is though, not looking at this personally - does anyone HAVE to have 2 kids? Or 3? Or 4? Or it is a choice you make? 

 

Surprised lots of people don’t think of childcare costs when they consider having kids. I know lots of people don’t, they just get on with it.

You obviously have to accept that if your going to have kids however that you will have to make sacrifices, whether financial or your time etc and life isn’t going to be the same, especially when they’re young. 

TT avoid work?

I have never seen someone as work focused in my life! He loves his wood as if it were one of the family. Nath and his old man have carved a cracking little company out of the woodwork! “Pun fully intended!”

 

[Lord Geordie]

10 hours ago, The Heron said:

In 1960 my parents were earning half the equivalent as was then the value of the £15,000 mentioned poverty level but still survived there are some genuine people that do need help but to the rest  I would suggest get of your lazy **** and do some form of work and get at least one job what ever to survive.

I think this is where I have been very lucky! Coming from a family of two parents and four kids, dad was the bread winner on a low wage! We had our own allotment to grow fresh veg etc. Dads wages were so low we got the basics. From me being born until I was around 15 dad was the only income we had! We never had much, hand me down clothing from the milk lady, school dinners even though as infants they had to be paid for, book for school were passed down from the elder sisters, I even went to school in a blouse rather than a shirt as mum couldn’t afford it. We would finish school, come home and have a sandwich and wait for dad coming home from work! When he had drank his coffee and had his sandwich we would all go to the allotment for a few hours. The whole family would go. We would have a roast lunch each Sunday with a high tea in the evening. Dad would borrow the work van once a year so we could go on holiday to my nans in Lincolnshire. The fuel bill would almost bankrupt him, but it was a pilgrimage. One year dad was offered a new job with a higher wage and took it! For 5 years things were better, he bought his own car Austin GT1300 and we had two holidays a year. One to nans and one to a cottage in portnockie. Those were golden years to me. Then the company folded and dad was out of work for 6 weeks! In that time he sold the car to keep us going. He attended multiple interviews and had to walk to each. One of which was 10 mile from home, he never got the job but didn’t give up. One day out of the blue he got a call from a work colleague who had started up on his own and offered dad a job on less than half what he had been on previously, but dad took it! We struggled, but as a family we made it. Eventually Mum took a job as a cleaner in the local hospital. Two wages coming in and nan gifted dad enough money to lay down as a deposit to purchase the family home! We went from strength to strength! Sisters got jobs, I was doing a YTS course and payed board, bought a moped, my brother a few years later got a job in a photocopier company, I found work in the leisure industry one sister in catering and one in care homes! 

Being brought up as a child with nothing, I count my lucky stars we had food on the table, clothes on my back and the love of both parents! Did I live in poverty? Not in my view! 

And coming from such a background, when the chips are down, I still manage to get by! Being on NLW for me isn’t an issue! I manage my finances ok, if I were to lose my job then yes I would struggle and obviously the risk of losing the house too. That’s a hill I will climb if I ever get to it. 

One thing I have never done well is save, as I budget for what I have coming in, it’s pretty much all spoken for as it’s earned with a little left over which is paid in advance toward a holiday. Shooting has fell to the wayside for a while, but that’s mainly due to all my time being taken up working, and caring for my parents currently! 

Eventually when the house is paid for, I intend selling it, buying Chris a place of his own! Then if there is any capital left from the sale I will find a small place for myself and any future woman mad enough to live with me! 

I know there ARE genuine cases of poverty in the UK! But they are eclipsed by the sheer scale of those CLAIMING poverty while they are clearly getting by and just need a little financial advice! 

[Aled]

Nice post Lord Geordie, if there was a like button I'd click it.

Cheers

Aled

[Hamster]

Yes very good post Lord Geordie, would have loved to have met your dad but I don't agree with the last phrase because of lack of proof or evidence : (But they are eclipsed by the sheer scale of those CLAIMING poverty).

Incidentally the number of Americans officially living at or under the internationally recognised poverty level stands at 47 million or some 14% of their population, this has been increasing for at least two decades despite the wonderful capacity of capitalism to make us all better off. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Put simply there appear to be several differing accepted descriptions of poverty!

 

Cracking post your Lordship, you are an inspiration to us all

[pinfireman]

38 minutes ago, Lord Geordie said:

I think this is where I have been very lucky! Coming from a family of two parents and four kids, dad was the bread winner on a low wage! We had our own allotment to grow fresh veg etc. Dads wages were so low we got the basics. From me being born until I was around 15 dad was the only income we had! We never had much, hand me down clothing from the milk lady, school dinners even though as infants they had to be paid for, book for school were passed down from the elder sisters, I even went to school in a blouse rather than a shirt as mum couldn’t afford it. We would finish school, come home and have a sandwich and wait for dad coming home from work! When he had drank his coffee and had his sandwich we would all go to the allotment for a few hours. The whole family would go. We would have a roast lunch each Sunday with a high tea in the evening. Dad would borrow the work van once a year so we could go on holiday to my nans in Lincolnshire. The fuel bill would almost bankrupt him, but it was a pilgrimage. One year dad was offered a new job with a higher wage and took it! For 5 years things were better, he bought his own car Austin GT1300 and we had two holidays a year. One to nans and one to a cottage in portnockie. Those were golden years to me. Then the company folded and dad was out of work for 6 weeks! In that time he sold the car to keep us going. He attended multiple interviews and had to walk to each. One of which was 10 mile from home, he never got the job but didn’t give up. One day out of the blue he got a call from a work colleague who had started up on his own and offered dad a job on less than half what he had been on previously, but dad took it! We struggled, but as a family we made it. Eventually Mum took a job as a cleaner in the local hospital. Two wages coming in and nan gifted dad enough money to lay down as a deposit to purchase the family home! We went from strength to strength! Sisters got jobs, I was doing a YTS course and payed board, bought a moped, my brother a few years later got a job in a photocopier company, I found work in the leisure industry one sister in catering and one in care homes! 

Being brought up as a child with nothing, I count my lucky stars we had food on the table, clothes on my back and the love of both parents! Did I live in poverty? Not in my view! 

And coming from such a background, when the chips are down, I still manage to get by! Being on NLW for me isn’t an issue! I manage my finances ok, if I were to lose my job then yes I would struggle and obviously the risk of losing the house too. That’s a hill I will climb if I ever get to it. 

One thing I have never done well is save, as I budget for what I have coming in, it’s pretty much all spoken for as it’s earned with a little left over which is paid in advance toward a holiday. Shooting has fell to the wayside for a while, but that’s mainly due to all my time being taken up working, and caring for my parents currently! 

Eventually when the house is paid for, I intend selling it, buying Chris a place of his own! Then if there is any capital left from the sale I will find a small place for myself and any future woman mad enough to live with me! 

I know there ARE genuine cases of poverty in the UK! But they are eclipsed by the sheer scale of those CLAIMING poverty while they are clearly getting by and just need a little financial advice! 

My life almost mirrors yours! Well said!

5 minutes ago, Hamster said:

Yes very good post Lord Geordie, would have loved to have met your dad but I don't agree with the last phrase because of lack of proof or evidence : (But they are eclipsed by the sheer scale of those CLAIMING poverty).

Incidentally the number of Americans officially living at or under the internationally recognised poverty level stands at 47 million or some 14% of their population, this has been increasing for at least two decades despite the wonderful capacity of capitalism to make us all better off. 

and "socialism" is the answer? Tell that to Venezuelans!

[Lord Geordie]

9 minutes ago, Hamster said:

Yes very good post Lord Geordie, would have loved to have met your dad but I don't agree with the last phrase because of lack of proof or evidence : (But they are eclipsed by the sheer scale of those CLAIMING poverty).

Incidentally the number of Americans officially living at or under the internationally recognised poverty level stands at 47 million or some 14% of their population, this has been increasing for at least two decades despite the wonderful capacity of capitalism to make us all better off. 

Hamster, I mean no disrespect! But my idea of poverty is a man living in a doorway with the clothes on his back, and nothing else but relying on the good will of others to give him a hot drink and a meal. 

As I said in a previous post many seem to be in possession of many items of high value, though not contemplate parting with those items to feed their children? Others turn to drink? The cost of that bottle of vodka could feed a family of 4 a nice meal if you shop carefully! I know there are many of us who don’t fully understand the breakdown of statistics perhaps! But statistically I am living in abject poverty? And frankly I can’t agree with that? My neighbour is living on social benefit and she claims to be broke! Yet always seems to be able to afford cigarettes, cannabis and alcohol? As I say, some simply need to make better decisions with where the money goes. I am not knocking people on benefits either!  I am worse off workin than I would be if I were claiming. I don’t even claim working tax though I am eligible for it. I just don’t feel I need it. As I say I get NLW and nothing else! I pay a mortgage, council tax, energy bills, mobile “cheap” contract, run a car though not too often, and manage to have a few days away each year to Reading, Edinburgh, York or even Amsterdam or Rotterdam. Yes I buy reduced foods etc to make my money go further, I walk into a shop and see something I fancy. I walk past it and then think do I really need it? In 90% of cases I leave it. I used to have a huge problem with impulse buying! I now do most of my clothes shopping in charity shops apart from socks and underwear obviously! The only NEW items in my house were my washing machine, carpets “remnants”  and my bedroom suite! Everything else was bought second hand. I don’t need branded clothing, I don’t need gold chains or rings, I don’t need a cupboard full of spirits, 

There was a time I WAS broke and living on £10 a week for food for two literally, I have a photograph somewhere when I visited my aunt in Saltfleet, I look like a guy dying of something like cancer. I went from 15 stone to 9 stone! I was feeding my son and going without myself and had sold all my possessions to keep going. Sold the TV, Car, Sofa, HiFi etc. I had the carpet on the floor, a fridge and a cooker. I remember living in one potato a fish cake and half a tin of beans a day! And that is not an exaduration. I needed to make sure Chris was properly fed so he was given everything I had. I had to put him on my shoulders and walk to the next village to get him to school, each week walked from beadnell to Alnwick just to pay my electricity bill. And I still look back at that time and have nothing but happy memories of watching Chris growing up. I got through though with no help from others! Even then I had food, shelter, heat and didn’t class myself as living in TRUE poverty? 

As I say I mean no disrespect to you nor to anyone else’s views on poverty, it’s just MY take on the issue! 

[Aled]

There's probably a middle ground somewhere but it appears that nobody in the World knows where to find it!

Cheers

Aled

Edited November 14, 2018 by Aled

[sandspider]

14 minutes ago, Lord Geordie said:

Hamster, I mean no disrespect! But my idea of poverty is a man living in a doorway with the clothes on his back, and nothing else but relying on the good will of others to give him a hot drink and a meal. 

As I said in a previous post many seem to be in possession of many items of high value, though not contemplate parting with those items to feed their children? Others turn to drink? The cost of that bottle of vodka could feed a family of 4 a nice meal if you shop carefully! I know there are many of us who don’t fully understand the breakdown of statistics perhaps! But statistically I am living in abject poverty? And frankly I can’t agree with that? My neighbour is living on social benefit and she claims to be broke! Yet always seems to be able to afford cigarettes, cannabis and alcohol? As I say, some simply need to make better decisions with where the money goes. I am not knocking people on benefits either!  I am worse off workin than I would be if I were claiming. I don’t even claim working tax though I am eligible for it. I just don’t feel I need it. As I say I get NLW and nothing else! I pay a mortgage, council tax, energy bills, mobile “cheap” contract, run a car though not too often, and manage to have a few days away each year to Reading, Edinburgh, York or even Amsterdam or Rotterdam. Yes I buy reduced foods etc to make my money go further, I walk into a shop and see something I fancy. I walk past it and then think do I really need it? In 90% of cases I leave it. I used to have a huge problem with impulse buying! I now do most of my clothes shopping in charity shops apart from socks and underwear obviously! The only NEW items in my house were my washing machine, carpets “remnants”  and my bedroom suite! Everything else was bought second hand. I don’t need branded clothing, I don’t need gold chains or rings, I don’t need a cupboard full of spirits, 

There was a time I WAS broke and living on £10 a week for food for two literally, I have a photograph somewhere when I visited my aunt in Saltfleet, I look like a guy dying of something like cancer. I went from 15 stone to 9 stone! I was feeding my son and going without myself and had sold all my possessions to keep going. Sold the TV, Car, Sofa, HiFi etc. I had the carpet on the floor, a fridge and a cooker. I remember living in one potato a fish cake and half a tin of beans a day! And that is not an exaduration. I needed to make sure Chris was properly fed so he was given everything I had. I had to put him on my shoulders and walk to the next village to get him to school, each week walked from beadnell to Alnwick just to pay my electricity bill. And I still look back at that time and have nothing but happy memories of watching Chris growing up. I got through though with no help from others! Even then I had food, shelter, heat and didn’t class myself as living in TRUE poverty? 

As I say I mean no disrespect to you nor to anyone else’s views on poverty, it’s just MY take on the issue! 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Geordie said:

I think this is where I have been very lucky! Coming from a family of two parents and four kids, dad was the bread winner on a low wage! We had our own allotment to grow fresh veg etc. Dads wages were so low we got the basics. From me being born until I was around 15 dad was the only income we had! We never had much, hand me down clothing from the milk lady, school dinners even though as infants they had to be paid for, book for school were passed down from the elder sisters, I even went to school in a blouse rather than a shirt as mum couldn’t afford it. We would finish school, come home and have a sandwich and wait for dad coming home from work! When he had drank his coffee and had his sandwich we would all go to the allotment for a few hours. The whole family would go. We would have a roast lunch each Sunday with a high tea in the evening. Dad would borrow the work van once a year so we could go on holiday to my nans in Lincolnshire. The fuel bill would almost bankrupt him, but it was a pilgrimage. One year dad was offered a new job with a higher wage and took it! For 5 years things were better, he bought his own car Austin GT1300 and we had two holidays a year. One to nans and one to a cottage in portnockie. Those were golden years to me. Then the company folded and dad was out of work for 6 weeks! In that time he sold the car to keep us going. He attended multiple interviews and had to walk to each. One of which was 10 mile from home, he never got the job but didn’t give up. One day out of the blue he got a call from a work colleague who had started up on his own and offered dad a job on less than half what he had been on previously, but dad took it! We struggled, but as a family we made it. Eventually Mum took a job as a cleaner in the local hospital. Two wages coming in and nan gifted dad enough money to lay down as a deposit to purchase the family home! We went from strength to strength! Sisters got jobs, I was doing a YTS course and payed board, bought a moped, my brother a few years later got a job in a photocopier company, I found work in the leisure industry one sister in catering and one in care homes! 

Being brought up as a child with nothing, I count my lucky stars we had food on the table, clothes on my back and the love of both parents! Did I live in poverty? Not in my view! 

And coming from such a background, when the chips are down, I still manage to get by! Being on NLW for me isn’t an issue! I manage my finances ok, if I were to lose my job then yes I would struggle and obviously the risk of losing the house too. That’s a hill I will climb if I ever get to it. 

One thing I have never done well is save, as I budget for what I have coming in, it’s pretty much all spoken for as it’s earned with a little left over which is paid in advance toward a holiday. Shooting has fell to the wayside for a while, but that’s mainly due to all my time being taken up working, and caring for my parents currently! 

Eventually when the house is paid for, I intend selling it, buying Chris a place of his own! Then if there is any capital left from the sale I will find a small place for myself and any future woman mad enough to live with me! 

I know there ARE genuine cases of poverty in the UK! But they are eclipsed by the sheer scale of those CLAIMING poverty while they are clearly getting by and just need a little financial advice! 

I'm impressed by these two posts LG. Hats off to you. Also makes me realise how lucky I am. Thank you.

[Rewulf]

6 minutes ago, Lord Geordie said:

my idea of poverty is a man living in a doorway with the clothes on his back, and nothing else but relying on the good will of others to give him a hot drink and a meal. 

Spot on !

Quite an emotional read that LG, and Id be lying if I said it didnt bring a tear to my eye,  when I think of the struggles of my parents, and in later years, myself and siblings.

All tends to come good in the end, and keeping your dignity and hope, are your best weapons when the chips are down.

I can say with certainty that of the 14 million odd people who have been classified as living in poverty, some would scratch their heads and wonder what some statistician was rattling on about !
Some others will be rubbing their hands together and wondering when the benefits are going up and they can get a bigger TV.

People like yourself will trudge on with quiet dignity, count their blessings, and not even claim the benefits they are entitled to.
And thats the difference, self respect and doing the 'right thing'

Good luck to you.

[Hamster]

18 minutes ago, Lord Geordie said:

Hamster, I mean no disrespect! But my idea of poverty is a man living in a doorway with the clothes on his back, and nothing else but relying on the good will of others to give him a hot drink and a meal. 

 

Thankfully we have come a long way to consider that to be poverty, as others have pointed out this issue revolves around (and around and around) what "you" happen to consider poverty. I certainly wouldn't condone buying drugs or cigarettes when the money is best spent on food but at the same time I also don't get why people think that to qualify for "poverty" status you have to be seen to have sold every last item in your room. When I watch a homeless man taking deep drags on a roll up I don't wonder why he spent £8 to buy it but instead shiver inside that that is all he has left to entertain himself with. 

Poverty changes as humanity progresses, what was considered almost the norm 60 years ago should not be seen as the acceptable level today, how else are we going to improve everyones lot continually ? I slept on the floor till I was about 8 years old because it was considered the norm back then but it isn't now, meat had an almost celebratory aspect to it too when I was young but today not having it is considered an indication of poor means/living, I literally cannot remember having a winter coat when I was that age either so at 6 in the mornings would walk to the bakers and shops for supplies in my pyjamas, sandals and a cardigan to fend off the snow on the ground 😳  I could give dozens of examples of things that could be termed as luxuries which today are no more than standard fare.  

The man in the doorway is indicative not of poverty but absolute and utter destitution, here the poverty lies in our morality and unforgivably low ethics which can look on (and judge). 

 

[JohnfromUK]

2 hours ago, Lord Geordie said:

I know there ARE genuine cases of poverty in the UK! But they are eclipsed by the sheer scale of those CLAIMING poverty while they are clearly getting by and just need a little financial advice!

Good post, and well done your father.  I think getting the financial advice may be easier that getting people to follow it.

[grrclark]

Some interesting posts and highlights why emotional rhetoric is never helpful when discussing reality.

The dictionary definition of poverty is pretty mych being too poor to afford life's necessities.

What some have described as poverty I would describe as destitute.

Necessities for me are accommodation, heating, food, ability to clothe your family, pay for transport to work/schools (that might mean a car), haircuts, toiletries, modest gifts for children, etc and also an ability to engage in some sort of social interaction otherwise people live a hollow existance and that is desperately unhealthy.

If you HAVE to rely on short dated food to eat and HAVE to rely on hand me downs, if you HAVE to walk 10 miles to work and back then you are in poverty.

I am very much a card carrying capitalist and also a genuine card carrying Tory, however some of the sentiment expressed on here saddens me.

Again people are highlighting the extreme examples and failing to see and recognise the big picture.

Incidentally the SMC is headed up by a Tory peer, yes the JRF is left leaning, but let’s not be hoodwinked into thinking that these suggested measures are agenda based left wing politics.  They’re not, they stemmed from the fact that the metrics devised under Blair and Brown suggestes that poverty was statistically declining in the UK, but real world evidence pointed otherwise.  This was just as much a Tory led exercise as anything else.

Poverty is a very real problem in this country and is a product of many different things, to deny that is ignorance in the extreme.

There is no easy single answer solution, despite the assertions of many PW posters that there is, despite the disdain in which our MP’s may be held they are not numpties and certainly not so shortsighted as to overlook a straightforward solution.

Every single developed country in the world are trying to find ways to address these problems, even the supposed socialist inclined utopias of the Scandinavian countries have the same challenges, but by dint of differences of culture and social conscience the problem presents in a different shape and scale.

[Rewulf]

9 minutes ago, Hamster said:

Thankfully we have come a long way to consider that to be poverty, as others have pointed out this issue revolves around (and around and around) what "you" happen to consider poverty.

The issue actually revolves round what some social think tank thinks is poverty.
The aim of which is what ?
To convince us all that nearly a quarter of our population needs more 'free' money ?
Or a stick to bash the present government with, the same old story about them 'not doing enough !' ?

As Ive said, do these 14 m people think they live in poverty ?
We had a similar thread about food banks, and how people in this country are 'starving' but its all a matter of perspective.
I think if you have a roof, heat, security and food, you are doing a lot better than many people in the world.

Many of the findings of the report simply take into consideration the mean annual income into the household, and use that as a measurement of whether or not you are below the poverty line.
This by no means indicates standard of living, some people are better at managing money than others.
You could easily give £15 k a year in benefits to a typical 2+2 family, whilst a working 2+2 family with the same take home income lives better because they are better at managing funds.
Family 1 thinks that takeaways are the way to feed them, family 2 does a budget shop ect.

Like has been said, theres no easy answers, but education would certainly help a lot of people who struggle.
But anyone who thinks when they see a report like this , that the lower strata of society needs more  money pumping into it, is living in a weird plane of existence.

If you keep feeding it, it will keep its mouth open.

[grrclark]

23 minutes ago, Hamster said:

The man in the doorway is indicative not of poverty but absolute and utter destitution, here the poverty lies in our morality and unforgivably low ethics which can look on (and judge). 

Our political viewpoints differ in many respects, but in that statement I am in complete agreement with you.

There is a whole load of virtue signalling posts in the benefit of self in this thread and hellish little realism, understanding or empathy.

I know I accused you of making a slightly baiting post Hamster, but there are a lot of perceptions on here that really do need challenging.  Sadly I believe that so many are caught up in their own narrow mindedness to even begin to contemplate that challenge.  

[12gauge82]

I think the issue in this country isn't so much poverty and more wealth inequality, the gap between the top 10% and the rest is vast and has been getting bigger over the last decade as the working class has had to tighten their belts.

[grrclark]

1 minute ago, 12gauge82 said:

I think the issue in this country isn't so much poverty and more wealth inequality, the gap between the top 10% and the rest is vast and has been getting bigger over the last decade as the working class has had to tighten their belts.

The rich being richer doesn’t matter to the poor.  It makes no odds in real world terms if someone can do their daily shopping at Harrods whilst someone is having to rely on out of date groceries or a food bank.

It is easy to point at the gap in wealth, but that is not the problem.  It is also easy to say take from the rich to give to the poor, but that doesn’t work either as the rich just go somehwere else.

In the Winter of Discontent the top rate of tax was 83% and on investment income it was effectively 98%.   That top rate meant any income above £20k at that time, c£200k now.

Making the rich poorer does not make the poor richer.

[Hamster]

35 minutes ago, grrclark said:

Some interesting posts and highlights why emotional rhetoric is never helpful when discussing reality.

The dictionary definition of poverty is pretty mych being too poor to afford life's necessities.

What some have described as poverty I would describe as destitute.

Necessities for me are accommodation, heating, food, ability to clothe your family, pay for transport to work/schools (that might mean a car), haircuts, toiletries, modest gifts for children, etc and also an ability to engage in some sort of social interaction otherwise people live a hollow existance and that is desperately unhealthy.

If you HAVE to rely on short dated food to eat and HAVE to rely on hand me downs, if you HAVE to walk 10 miles to work and back then you are in poverty.

I am very much a card carrying capitalist and also a genuine card carrying Tory, however some of the sentiment expressed on here saddens me.

Again people are highlighting the extreme examples and failing to see and recognise the big picture.

Incidentally the SMC is headed up by a Tory peer, yes the JRF is left leaning, but let’s not be hoodwinked into thinking that these suggested measures are agenda based left wing politics.  They’re not, they stemmed from the fact that the metrics devised under Blair and Brown suggestes that poverty was statistically declining in the UK, but real world evidence pointed otherwise.  This was just as much a Tory led exercise as anything else.

Poverty is a very real problem in this country and is a product of many different things, to deny that is ignorance in the extreme.

There is no easy single answer solution, despite the assertions of many PW posters that there is, despite the disdain in which our MP’s may be held they are not numpties and certainly not so shortsighted as to overlook a straightforward solution.

Every single developed country in the world are trying to find ways to address these problems, even the supposed socialist inclined utopias of the Scandinavian countries have the same challenges, but by dint of differences of culture and social conscience the problem presents in a different shape and scale.

👍

24 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

The issue actually revolves round what some social think tank thinks is poverty.
The aim of which is what ?
To convince us all that nearly a quarter of our population needs more 'free' money ?
Or a stick to bash the present government with, the same old story about them 'not doing enough !' ?

As Ive said, do these 14 m people think they live in poverty ?
We had a similar thread about food banks, and how people in this country are 'starving' but its all a matter of perspective.
I think if you have a roof, heat, security and food, you are doing a lot better than many people in the world.

Many of the findings of the report simply take into consideration the mean annual income into the household, and use that as a measurement of whether or not you are below the poverty line.
This by no means indicates standard of living, some people are better at managing money than others.
You could easily give £15 k a year in benefits to a typical 2+2 family, whilst a working 2+2 family with the same take home income lives better because they are better at managing funds.
Family 1 thinks that takeaways are the way to feed them, family 2 does a budget shop ect.

Like has been said, theres no easy answers, but education would certainly help a lot of people who struggle.
But anyone who thinks when they see a report like this , that the lower strata of society needs more  money pumping into it, is living in a weird plane of existence.

If you keep feeding it, it will keep its mouth open.

Who even mentioned free money ?! Why is it that any talk of social justice or equity immediately attracts charges of laziness or wanting something for nothing. I have always voted Tory up to now but will be voting Labour next time, not because I believe they'll (be allowed) to change things but because it is the only thing I can do. 

[henry d]

"If you have more than you need build a bigger table not a bigger fence." (Anon)

[12gauge82]

41 minutes ago, grrclark said:

The rich being richer doesn’t matter to the poor.  It makes no odds in real world terms if someone can do their daily shopping at Harrods whilst someone is having to rely on out of date groceries or a food bank.

It is easy to point at the gap in wealth, but that is not the problem.  It is also easy to say take from the rich to give to the poor, but that doesn’t work either as the rich just go somehwere else.

In the Winter of Discontent the top rate of tax was 83% and on investment income it was effectively 98%.   That top rate meant any income above £20k at that time, c£200k now.

Making the rich poorer does not make the poor richer.

It's not about making the rich poorer, it's about increasing the working classes pay and conditions, at the moment their are too many very wealthy individuals and organisations taking too big a cut of employees work, also leaving the masses with little incentive to work hard.

[Rewulf]

24 minutes ago, Hamster said:

👍

Who even mentioned free money ?! Why is it that any talk of social justice or equity immediately attracts charges of laziness or wanting something for nothing. I have always voted Tory up to now but will be voting Labour next time, not because I believe they'll (be allowed) to change things but because it is the only thing I can do. 

It doesnt matter who you vote for, government always wins.

 

27 minutes ago, henry d said:

"If you have more than you need build a bigger table not a bigger fence." (Anon)

'If you build it , 'they will come..'  

But my favourite is this one , in answer to yours.
'Give a man a fish, he eats for a day.
Give a man a fishing rod.....'