What to do if stopped by the police?

[Old farrier]

Come on chaps 

as soon as the officer puts your car registration into the machine they know who you are and if you have any sporting guns 

they would be foolish to approach without checking 

so a nice cheerful hello how can I assist you 😊

should put you in the right place (unless you’re doing something wrong) 

I’m  sure they don’t want the paperwork that is involved and would rather not have a confrontation with someone with a gun 

there nice people just doing a job 

 

[Duckandswing]

I’ve been stopped by the police whilst on my way to the clay ground. They apparently have flags on the PNC that the car is registered to a SGC/FAC holder.

They just pulled me over, asked if I was carrying any firearms and asked me to show them how they were being transported. Didn’t take two minutes, and I was on my way.

 

[mel b3]

12 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Come on chaps 

as soon as the officer puts your car registration into the machine they know who you are and if you have any sporting guns 

they would be foolish to approach without checking 

so a nice cheerful hello how can I assist you 😊

should put you in the right place (unless you’re doing something wrong) 

I’m  sure they don’t want the paperwork that is involved and would rather not have a confrontation with someone with a gun 

there nice people just doing a job 

 

Is the perfect answer 👍.

[oowee]

17 minutes ago, mel b3 said:

Is the perfect answer 👍.

Yep and its exactly what I would do but what are my rights? If i am in a hurry and get pulled over so that they can check how my guns are being transported are they acting within the law? Do they not need reasonable suspicion to check me out? 

[spandit]

2 minutes ago, oowee said:

Yep and its exactly what I would do but what are my rights? If i am in a hurry and get pulled over so that they can check how my guns are being transported are they acting within the law? Do they not need reasonable suspicion to check me out? 

You're a braver man than me to argue about rights in that situation.

[mel b3]

18 minutes ago, oowee said:

Yep and its exactly what I would do but what are my rights? If i am in a hurry and get pulled over so that they can check how my guns are being transported are they acting within the law? Do they not need reasonable suspicion to check me out? 

If you're in a hurry , the only sensible thing to do is let them crack on and do their job , it only takes minutes , and you'll all be on your way . The alternative is to argue over what right they have to do their job , and then stand and wait at the side of the road for an hour while the officers play along with you . Common sense and good manners will get you much further than your rights will , and it won't leave that bitter taste in your mouth either 👍.

[Rewulf]

24 minutes ago, oowee said:

Yep and its exactly what I would do but what are my rights? If i am in a hurry and get pulled over so that they can check how my guns are being transported are they acting within the law? Do they not need reasonable suspicion to check me out? 

Exactly.
Why would they want to pull you, just to check ?
Why would they suspect you were NOT transporting the firearms properly ?

Unless you have given them reason to pull you over in the first place via speeding or poor/erratic driving, just because you flag up as a firearms owner, this gives them the right for a random check ?
I think not.

1 minute ago, mel b3 said:

If you're in a hurry , the only sensible thing to do is let them crack on and do their job , it only takes minutes , and you'll all be on your way . The alternative is to argue over what right they have to do their job , and then stand and wait at the side of the road for an hour while the officers play along with you . Common sense and good manners will get you much further than your rights will , and it won't leave that bitter taste in your mouth either 👍.

If they have reason , yes.
If they havnt , and they kept you for an hour, I would be making a complaint.

[mel b3]

2 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Exactly.
Why would they want to pull you, just to check ?
Why would they suspect you were NOT transporting the firearms properly ?

Unless you have given them reason to pull you over in the first place via speeding or poor/erratic driving, just because you flag up as a firearms owner, this gives them the right for a random check ?
I think not.

If they have reason , yes.
If they havnt , and they kept you for an hour, I would be making a complaint.

As I've said already , it's happened to me several times , it takes a couple of minutes and ends with a polite goodbye and a gentlemanly handshake.

Life doesn't have to be a fight buddy , things like this really don't matter in the grand scheme of things , save the fighting energy for the important stuff.

👍.

[Rewulf]

Just now, mel b3 said:

As I've said already , it's happened to me several times , it takes a couple of minutes and ends with a polite goodbye and a gentlemanly handshake.

Life doesn't have to be a fight buddy , things like this really don't matter in the grand scheme of things , save the fighting energy for the important stuff.

👍.

Of course , and in the the situation , thats probably exactly what Id do.
But it irks me that we have to have the extra scrutiny, whilst the legal shooting community is one of the most law abiding sectors of society.

I still think they have to give you a reason for a pull though.
Did they say to you that it was a random check , or was there a specific reason ?

[KB1]

I got pulled for speeding on the motorway last month, and as I was sat in the patrol car getting the standard lecture, the lady on the other end of the police radio said "He holds a current Shotgun License"……..  No one batted an eyelid (And two of my guns were in the boot of my car)🙄

It's pretty simple though isn't it?  If your legal, then there's nothing to worry about…...

[oowee]

9 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Of course , and in the the situation , thats probably exactly what Id do.
But it irks me that we have to have the extra scrutiny, whilst the legal shooting community is one of the most law abiding sectors of society.

I still think they have to give you a reason for a pull though.
Did they say to you that it was a random check , or was there a specific reason ?

^^^^^ This. I would be civil and polite but I would ask why they had pulled me over. Like all this stuff it's so easy to be compliant and roll over but we should know what are rights are and what the limits of the police powers are. Otherwise what was discretionary turns into a right and so on until my liberties have been eroded faster than a those of a resident from Hong Kong. 

[panoma1]

I don't think anyone would object if the reason for the pull was appropriate and relevant? But I fail to see what relevance the fact that someone appropriately stopped for speeding, is a SGC holder?

If, as stated above, whilst stopped for a motoring offence, the police can retrieve information regarding gun ownership, personal information about an individual must be held on a police database? As it now seems police can identify individual gun owners via vehicle licensing etc?  Which gives them the ability to continually monitor an individual! So why do we have to repeat the ridiculous renewal process every five years? After all, we were led to believe that a marker on an individual gun owners medical records would allow continual monitoring and therefore enable the shooting public to have ten year certificates?

 

[Old farrier]

They could just be checking that you the owner of the vehicle are driving it 🙄

I bet you’d all be pleased if your vehicle was stolen with your gun in the boot and it was stopped and recovered 

As  said it’s there job if you haven’t done anything wrong couple of minutes and on your way 

all the best 

of

 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

7 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

They could just be checking that you the owner of the vehicle are driving it 🙄

I bet you’d all be pleased if your vehicle was stolen with your gun in the boot and it was stopped and recovered 

As  said it’s there job if you haven’t done anything wrong couple of minutes and on your way 

all the best 

of

Conversely if he has checked the VRN with the PNC he should know that you are a licenced firearms holder and does not need to feel he should be checking the weapons!

[mel b3]

1 minute ago, Rewulf said:

Of course , and in the the situation , thats probably exactly what Id do.
But it irks me that we have to have the extra scrutiny, whilst the legal shooting community is one of the most law abiding sectors of society.

I still think they have to give you a reason for a pull though.
Did they say to you that it was a random check , or was there a specific reason ?

The last time that the police pulled me over was just about eighteen  months ago , myself and another pw member were on our way to one of my farms to do a bit of night time  foxing (my car , but my mates rifle in the back). We saw the police car in the layby along a largish country road , and as we passed ,he pulled out and followed for about half mile or so before putting on the blue lights , as we pulled up , we all got out of the cars and exchanged pleasantries, one of the officers said that we had been pulled over due to deer poachers operating in the area , and that they're pulling over the types of cars that they had been using (I was driving my nissan navara ) , the officers took our details , and one of them returned to the police car to check us out , as you'd expect in these situations , I blamed my mate for the pull as he looks like a traveller 😅. Once the officers had checked us out and we're satisfied that all was in order ,we all said goodnight ,and went our separate ways,  the whole encounter probably lasted ten minutes.

It was very well known that a particularly nasty gang of poachers had been operating in the area for some time , within a short time of our police tug , the gang were caught after shooting 15 or 17 deer on one field , and leaving them where they lay(I'm sure someone can find a link to this).

From my point of view, it was good common sense policing, it caused very little inconvenience to us , and in part , helped to catch a pretty ruthless gang of criminals , that tarnished the reputation of the whole shooting community. 

On another occasion, myself and a mate had finished shooting for the day ,and popped to another farm to check my mole traps . My car was parked in the gateway to a field  , and we were carrying guns in slips on our backs as I checked the traps , we'd been working for ten minutes when two officers jumped the gate and hurried over to us , the officers seemed a little edgy ,but we're business like and polite , within a couple of minutes they could see what we were doing and all was very relaxed , one of the officers took our details and walked back to the car to check us out , the other officer explained that due to a recent burglary , a nervous local had called the police and reported a strange car parked in the gateway ( this was well off the beaten track ), once the officer on the radio had checked us out,he shouted to his mate and gave him the thumbs up , at this point , the young officer that was with us said ,come on then , let's have a look at the guns , we spent the next half hour or so with the young officer ( fresh out of the army) , having a go with my shotgun and rimfire , whilst the older officer sat in the car looking bored . It all ended with a polite handshake , and a thankyou for letting him try the guns out.

I should add , this was my second police encounter thar day , I had already been pulled over at 4.30 am for a faulty brake light , I'd only change the brake light bulb twelve hours previously, after being pulled the day before , for the same thing , in the same place(a fault with  vehicle electrics) , when I got pulled on the first day , I told the officer that I had guns in the car , he just said ,yeah I know , you flagged up , he told me that they were driving backwards and forwards along the road to slow traffic down ,as it had just been resurfaced and several cars had skidded off the road and landed in fields , this was clear enough to see due to the trail of  damaged hedges and cars in fields.

All encounters with the police ended very well for all concerned. 

[panoma1]

17 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

They could just be checking that you the owner of the vehicle are driving it 🙄

I bet you’d all be pleased if your vehicle was stolen with your gun in the boot and it was stopped and recovered 

As  said it’s there job if you haven’t done anything wrong couple of minutes and on your way 

all the best 

of

 

But how can the police know the driver is a SGC holder...unless such information is held on database accessible to the police?

The point I was making was, if such continuous monitoring is already available to the police, why do they insist such information is held (for the purpose of continuous monitoring) on medical records too?  I don't particularly object to this but if this continual monitoring is already in place, why are we not given ten year or even lifetime certificates?

Edited August 9, 2019 by panoma1

[TIGHTCHOKE]

I think you'll find a marker on the PNC to show a connection between your name, your registration number and the fact that you hold either an FAC or SGC.

[Rewulf]

7 minutes ago, mel b3 said:

From my point of view, it was good common sense policing, it caused very little inconvenience to us , and in part , helped to catch a pretty ruthless gang of criminals , that tarnished the reputation of the whole shooting community. 

[The Burpster]

30 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Conversely if he has checked the VRN with the PNC he should know that you are a licenced firearms holder and does not need to feel he should be checking the weapons!

Hmmmm it’s not quite as simple as that as cars, people and property are on 3 different databases all within PNC. A vehicle check will give the registered keeper and its current document situation (MOT tax and who is insured to drive it with the cautionary tale that some insurance companies are slow to update some information). People being on a separate DB requires either an educated guess by the inputter or the Officer to provide the persons date of birth to confirm the search (although it’s been a few years since I retired so this may be more efficient now!). It has to be like this as some people are recorded but have no vehicle and not all vehicles have someone driving them that has a record.

Even if you have NEVER been in trouble with law enforcement then as soon as you have an SGC/FAC you are given a PNC ID number which shows you as a current licensed holder.

The maxim here is simple always be polite and comply if you have done nothing wrong and your interaction will be short and sweet. Give the officers some reasonable suspicion and it will all go tits up very quickly. FYI a normal patrol officer is HIGHLY unlikely to be interested in the fact that you are lawfully carrying firearms if you are. If it’s suspected you are carrying firearms and you are intending to or have done something other than lawful you will be subjected to a ‘hard stop’ involving armed officers.

Any officer can ask you what you have with you and what you are using it for, hence I always have a photocopy of my SGC/FAC with me when I am out with them.  

Edited August 9, 2019 by The Burpster
Typo

[Dekers]

On ‎06‎/‎08‎/‎2019 at 21:56, mossy835 said:

as i under stand it, if a police officer asks you to hand over your guns, you must hand them to him.

NO, you don't...YOU are responsible for your guns and if you have any doubts about the officer or his competence TELL HIM, and ask him to get a Firearms Officer out to handle the situation!

[Rossco89]

9 hours ago, oowee said:

I am sure they are. We do not need to carry certificates. I don't think they have the power to inspect guns without some reason? i may well be wrong do we have any one with insider knowledge 🙂 ? 

Section 48 of the Firearms Act 1968 gives a Constable the power to demand a certificate. 

Section 47 of the Firearms Act 1968 a Constable can require any person who they suspect to be in possession of a firearm to hand it over for examination by the Constable 

There is very little difference when I look at the Firearms Order NI and the Firearms Act.

Not complying with a with an instruction like these, where there is a lawful power, can be prosecuted as obstruction. 

 

My point is that police to have the power to do these things, but by engaging in a conversation it avoids the police “using” the power if that makes sense. A conversation can answer all the police’s questions without the need for them to inspect guns and certificates.

All the details are held on a database but unless they speak to you, how do they know who you are? If you don’t show them ID you could be anyone giving a mates details as you have borrowed his gun. 

In my experience the police have enough to do without making legitimate people’s life difficult - unless that person gives them a reason to. Personally I have no problem speaking to the police everyday I am out with my guns if it means that the illegitimate shooters, who give the whole community a bad name, are being caught out.

The other side of the coin is that there are some a**hole police out there!

[Westley]

13 hours ago, Mr.C said:

I was advised by my FEO that should any gun of mine be surrendered to police for any reason to take photos before handing it over. Nice shotgun chucked in the back of a van... It apparently happens. 

I have recently seen what was an almost new gun (Beretta 692), which had been recovered by Police after a burglary. The gun was in a very sorry state, covered in assorted colours of fingerprint dust, some of which had actually got into the grain of the wood. I managed to get the metalwork clean using GT85, 3 in 1 spray oil and of course, good old WD40. Unfortunately both stock and forend had to go to a stock expert to be stripped, steamed and filled. The gun is now back to new condition and one would never know it had ever been abused.

 

On 08/08/2019 at 16:54, oowee said:

I don't think you are even obliged to talk to them, is that right? They have no reason to suspect you have done anything so you could just ignore them. 

I would of course just have a normal conversation with them but I would want some proper explanation as to why before I would hand over a firearm. 

I know that adopting that attitude would end in tears...............................not theirs either  !

[yickdaz]

11 hours ago, Duckandswing said:

I’ve been stopped by the police whilst on my way to the clay ground. They apparently have flags on the PNC that the car is registered to a SGC/FAC holder.

They just pulled me over, asked if I was carrying any firearms and asked me to show them how they were being transported. Didn’t take two minutes, and I was on my way.

 

same here been stopped a few times once when I was pigeon shooting the other when I was on my way home from shooting clays both times after a few questions,  I  just handed over my  certificate they checked  the serial numbers on the guns matched it  , then your on your way no big deal if you deal with them in the right way they will deal with you in the right way 

1 hour ago, Westley said:

 

 

I know that adopting that attitude would end in tears...............................not theirs either  !

well said 

Edited August 9, 2019 by yickdaz
.

[Westley]

I shoot on the 'urban fringe' and as a result it can draw a lot of unwanted attention from people, especially the right to roam, as long as you have a dog, brigade. I just contact the local Police control room and create a log, telling them all the details and my mobile number, also when I will be shooting. I simply call them back when I have finished and close the log. I have never had the Police interrupt my shooting yet.

[The Burpster]

13 hours ago, Dekers said:

NO, you don't...YOU are responsible for your guns and if you have any doubts about the officer or his competence TELL HIM, and ask him to get a Firearms Officer out to handle the situation!

What makes you think

 

a) that an AFO knows anything about sporting firearms? (Believe me they do not! I was on earlies at Newark many years ago when 2 AFOs bought several sporting guns in from a house following the arrest of the owner for Assault, they had no idea one of these shotguns was a Browning grade 5 and one a Perazzi. They also didn’t know how to take them apart so I did it for them). And

b) adopting a stance that “you are an incompetent officer, call someone who knows what they are doing” will gain you anything other than a world of pain.... he radios in stating “there is a man here that will not hand his firearm over and I don’t know if it’s loaded!” Will get you a really impressive response I can assure you. Nearly every officer I have known and worked with knows better than to try and do something they are not trained or competent at and if they aren’t confident handling a sporting gun they will request someone who does if it’s needed. 

As stated above it is well within any Constable’s powers to ask you to hand over your guns, I would seriously suggest you comply otherwise you will be committing an offence. 

That said in this day and age the only cautionary tale I will add to this is DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES hand over a gun to anyone who is not CLEARLY  NOT a Police Officer or has NOT shown you a credible ID (bearing in mind that impersonating Officers is a well known tactic of organised criminals and terrorist sympathisers), if it is a plain clothes officer politely ask them to get a uniformed officer to join them.