Gordon R Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 Quote This misses the point of having the referendum in the first place. Totally correct - totally ignored by those who will not see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, toxo said: This misses the point of having the referendum in the first place. It was predicated on the things we weren't happy with such as Sovereignty, law and migration/borders. Since then everyone with a vested interest (and not in the future of this country) have used every kind of smoke and mirrors to cloud the issue. The fact is that if the brexit negotiations had been conducted by hard line leavers from the get go this part of the process would have been done and dusted a year ago. And that is the point of the discussion. There is no agreement on what it is we voted for because the question posted by the referendum has a range of answers. It was many things to many people and parliament is reflecting this back at the voters. 3 minutes ago, Rewulf said: Well , if theres one thing to come from this, they have had some pretty damn scary exposure for who and what they are really about in the last 2 years. They say a labour voter is always a labour voter, I think we might put that to the test next time. 👍 It's also true of many Tory voters. I would struggle to vote for Mogg who has refused to represent his constituents and has been an architect of the sad state of affairs that is this government and the whole brexit process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 Quote There is no agreement on what it is we voted for because the question posted by the referendum has a range of answers. It was many things to many people and parliament is reflecting this back at the voters. The Referendum was leave or stay. It seems a hard concept for remainers to grasp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 1 minute ago, oowee said: been an architect of the sad state of affairs that is this government and the whole brexit process I dont see that, he has tried to steer the government towards delivering what the majority voted for. Nothing more or less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 7 minutes ago, Rewulf said: Well , if theres one thing to come from this, they have had some pretty damn scary exposure for who and what they are really about in the last 2 years. They say a labour voter is always a labour voter, I think we might put that to the test next time. Corbyn and McDonnell are about as close to being labour as I am to being a Tottenham supporter. They are both old school Communists Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 15 minutes ago, toxo said: This misses the point of having the referendum in the first place. It was predicated on the things we weren't happy with such as Sovereignty, law and migration/borders. Since then everyone with a vested interest (and not in the future of this country) have used every kind of smoke and mirrors to cloud the issue. The fact is that if the brexit negotiations had been conducted by hard line leavers from the get go this part of the process would have been done and dusted a year ago. So true. The trouble is our politicos would be outclassed by three year olds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Vince Green said: They are both old school Communists Correct - but that is what modern Labour actually is ......... and it seems that many 'young' Labour supporters either want that, or can't see it. Just as when I was a student over 40 years ago, the young (or at least many of them) go through a 'lefty' phase - usually before they start a real job and have to earn to meet their responsibilities. Those who never have a real job and opt for a life of either permanent student status, or benefits often remain lefty or go all LibDem. Those who have to work for a living usually become more mainstream - whether that is 'old Labour' or Tory. Edited March 13, 2019 by JohnfromUK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 4 minutes ago, Gordon R said: The Referendum was leave or stay. It seems a hard concept for remainers to grasp. That's pretty much understood on both sides of the vote but as clearly demonstrated in the house there are a few hundred versions of what that means in practice. 5 minutes ago, Rewulf said: I dont see that, he has tried to steer the government towards delivering what the majority voted for. Nothing more or less. The process of getting to the referendum and the proposal on the table could have been better thought through. Pushing for a vote regardless of the implications is not prudent management. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, Vince Green said: Corbyn and McDonnell are about as close to being labour as I am to being a Tottenham supporter. They are both old school Communists Communism is the spine that runs through the body of labour, I bet a lot of them still call each other comrade, and Im sure they still sing 'Keep the red flag flying' at labour party conferences. But Im not bothered about that, its just another side of politics, what really needs to be addressed is politicians who make promises, either on record or in manifestos, then do not deliver or backtrack. They need hauling before an independent board of citizens, not lords or foundation flunkys grasping for bribes or exposure, and made to answer why they have failed/lied to their constituents. If satisfactory answers are not obtained, then they need removing via by election. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 8 minutes ago, Vince Green said: Corbyn and McDonnell are about as close to being labour as I am to being a Tottenham supporter. They are both old school Communists There is clearly a lot of new school communists involved in this process. We are just waiting for them to be unmasked. Just now, Rewulf said: Communism is the spine that runs through the body of labour, I bet a lot of them still call each other comrade, and Im sure they still sing 'Keep the red flag flying' at labour party conferences. But Im not bothered about that, its just another side of politics, what really needs to be addressed is politicians who make promises, either on record or in manifestos, then do not deliver or backtrack. They need hauling before an independent board of citizens, not lords or foundation flunkys grasping for bribes or exposure, and made to answer why they have failed/lied to their constituents. If satisfactory answers are not obtained, then they need removing via by election. Starting here in Sunnyset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 1 minute ago, oowee said: Pushing for a vote regardless of the implications is not prudent management. But thats where the real question lies about prudent management. Do you really think that referendum would have been called if they thought leave would win ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 14 minutes ago, oowee said: It's also true of many Tory voters. I would struggle to vote for Mogg who has refused to represent his constituents and has been an architect of the sad state of affairs that is this government and the whole brexit process. Pray tell how you srrived at this point please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, oowee said: Starting here in Sunnyset. Agreed , it applies across the board, if Mogg is that unpopular , it wouldnt be a problem to remove him no ? Edited March 13, 2019 by Rewulf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 Looks to me like the EU are playing a blinder and parliament have either let them or the govt have some kind of pact with them on an outcome. Now that the deal hasn't passed I can see no deal being dropped, parliament voting for an extension which the EU reject in an attempt to revoke article 50. I thought there would be concessions on the deal and the one good thing about it going through would have been that both sides could have justifiably felt more or less equally aggrieved, it might have even united the public in their outrage. I'm in the US at the moment and the only thing stopping yanks openly laughing in my face is they know we have the "Trump" card in our back pockets - as an aside, in all my trips and discussions here I am yet to find a single person in Michigan who admits to voting for Trump. Some even suggest that they don't know anyone who did... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12gauge82 Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 8 minutes ago, oowee said: That's pretty much understood on both sides of the vote but as clearly demonstrated in the house there are a few hundred versions of what that means in practice. The process of getting to the referendum and the proposal on the table could have been better thought through. Pushing for a vote regardless of the implications is not prudent management. Your second paragraph is true, but it's too late, the vote was held. As for your first paragraph, it's nonsense, it was made crystal clear, the country voted to leave its EU membership, that means leaving the EU and the core rules being an EU member entails, I can't see what your struggling to grasp about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 6 minutes ago, Rewulf said: But thats where the real question lies about prudent management. Do you really think that referendum would have been called if they thought leave would win ?? No. That does not make it a sensible course of action to pursue when we are dealing with something so complex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toxo Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, oowee said: That's pretty much understood on both sides of the vote but as clearly demonstrated in the house there are a few hundred versions of what that means in practice. If you're a remainer then simply "leave or remain" does give you something to cloud the issue with but if you maintain that "we must have total Sovereignty" and "we must have our own Judicial system" and "we must have absolutely no freedom of movement" then all of the remoaners arguments fall by the wayside especially the ones that "respected the will of the people". These are the worst of the remoaners. Absolute scum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 1 minute ago, Raja Clavata said: Looks to me like the EU are playing a blinder and parliament have either let them or the govt have some kind of pact with them on an outcome. Now that the deal hasn't passed I can see no deal being dropped, parliament voting for an extension which the EU reject in an attempt to revoke article 50. I thought there would be concessions on the deal and the one good thing about it going through would have been that both sides could have justifiably felt more or less equally aggrieved, it might have even united the public in their outrage. I'm in the US at the moment and the only thing stopping yanks openly laughing in my face is they know we have the "Trump" card in our back pockets - as an aside, in all my trips and discussions here I am yet to find a single person in Michigan who admits to voting for Trump. Some even suggest that they don't know anyone who did... It gets worse. It now looks like we are agreeing to not tax EU goods whilst they tax ours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12gauge82 Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 Just now, Raja Clavata said: Looks to me like the EU are playing a blinder and parliament have either let them or the govt have some kind of pact with them on an outcome. Now that the deal hasn't passed I can see no deal being dropped, parliament voting for an extension which the EU reject in an attempt to revoke article 50. I thought there would be concessions on the deal and the one good thing about it going through would have been that both sides could have justifiably felt more or less equally aggrieved, it might have even united the public in their outrage. I'm in the US at the moment and the only thing stopping yanks openly laughing in my face is they know we have the "Trump" card in our back pockets - as an aside, in all my trips and discussions here I am yet to find a single person in Michigan who admits to voting for Trump. Some even suggest that they don't know anyone who did... I don't think the EU have played a blinder, it's UK MPs who refuse to enact the referendum result who are scuppering the uks ability to negotiate a decent deal or make a clean break, simple as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, toxo said: If you're a remainer then simply "leave or remain" does give you something to cloud the issue with but if you maintain that "we must have total Sovereignty" and "we must have our own Judicial system" and "we must have absolutely no freedom of movement" then all of the remoaners arguments fall by the wayside especially the ones that "respected the will of the people". These are the worst of the remoaners. Absolute scum. Cancel my holiday then 😂 The worst of Brexiteers are the uneducated ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackstone Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 A referendum that was advisory and not legally binding. The govt and parliament accepted this and went to negotiate an exit deal. Unsurprisingly, many of the things that the Leave campaign promised were simply not true. A trade deal with the EU was not the "easiest in history" to strike, and it certainly can't be done in an afternoon. If Brexiteers are so confident that the Will of the People is to leave, then why are they so afraid of a second vote, now that the People are much better informed as to the consequences? Bring on the hate mail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toxo Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 3 minutes ago, oowee said: Cancel my holiday then 😂 The worst of Brexiteers are the uneducated ones. Oh! Very sharp. But stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 5 minutes ago, oowee said: No. That does not make it a sensible course of action to pursue when we are dealing with something so complex. Youre missing the point, prudency and good sense dont matter when you think you know the outcome of a vote. Remain would win, the Brexiters and UKIP could then shut their mouths 'for a generation' and we could all go about our business in the United states of Status Quo. The best laid plans and all that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Blackstone said: A referendum that was advisory and not legally binding. The govt and parliament accepted this and went to negotiate an exit deal. Unsurprisingly, many of the things that the Leave campaign promised were simply not true. A trade deal with the EU was not the "easiest in history" to strike, and it certainly can't be done in an afternoon. If Brexiteers are so confident that the Will of the People is to leave, then why are they so afraid of a second vote, now that the People are much better informed as to the consequences? Bring on the hate mail I'll accept a second vote but only if remain isn't on it, we have already had that vote. I'll accept a referendum on May's deal or WTO exit. Anyone who thinks remain should be on it is just simply anti-democratic. Edited March 13, 2019 by Newbie to this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 3 minutes ago, toxo said: Oh! Very sharp. But stupid. Oh come on Toxo, you know we who actually voted to leave are the STUPID electorate, not like the superior remoaners! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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