Brexit - merged threads

[TIGHTCHOKE]

I think she is trying to SPREAD the BLAME!

[JRDS]

Yes of course she is the ERG need to back a vote of no confidence, Corbyn would bite their hand off for an Election. The Witch needs the Gallows.

[walshie]

She's immune from getting the sack now for a while after she survived the vote of no confidence. The "Brexiteers" stood by when they had the chance to stick the boot in but did nothing. Johnson and Mogg are as spineless and useless as all the others.

It is beyond me why a party would want to make itself unelectable like the Tories have. After the next GE they probably won't even be the opposition. Then when some "far-right" party comes to power, these pathetic losers will be amazed to find out they can't actually do as they like. I doubt the Tories will see power again for over a generation.

Hopefully a lot of this capitulation can be rectified once we get a PM with testicles.

[Raja Clavata]

9 minutes ago, walshie said:

She's immune from getting the sack now for a while after she survived the vote of no confidence. The "Brexiteers" stood by when they had the chance to stick the boot in but did nothing. Johnson and Mogg are as spineless and useless as all the others.

It is beyond me why a party would want to make itself unelectable like the Tories have. After the next GE they probably won't even be the opposition. Then when some "far-right" party comes to power, these pathetic losers will be amazed to find out they can't actually do as they like. I doubt the Tories will see power again for over a generation.

Hopefully a lot of this capitulation can be rectified once we get a PM with testicles.

At least you, or at least I, can believe that Mogg believes what he says, I listened to Johnson tonight banging on about the delay etc. and I don't think he's being honest. It wouldn't surprise me if he's actually a Remainer at heart - completely unconvincing.

I still don't see a far right party coming to power but can see them being represented along with Labour, Conservatives and the new Change UK party - with our political constitution that looks like hell to me, we really do need electoral reforms.

I do wonder what May is up to with this latest twist, it's a complete change of tack, she might just be setting him (Corbyn) up big time. I reckon this effectively kicks no deal into touch and increases the probability of revocation of A50 more likely.

[Newbie to this]

5 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I reckon this effectively kicks democracy into touch and increases the probability that democracy is dead.

There you go I fixed another one for you 

[Mice!]

7 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

It wouldn't surprise me if he's actually a Remainer at heart - completely unconvincing.

Didn't Borris swing both ways? Whatever it takes to get what he wants, sure he did a speech for leave and remain.

 

 

30 minutes ago, walshie said:

Hopefully a lot of this capitulation can be rectified once we get a PM with testicles.

Problem is she's got more than the rest of them it seems.

Still can't believe she's going cap in hand to Corbyn, someone's just said on news night, Corbyns job isn't too help TM its to force a GE

[Raja Clavata]

6 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

There you go I fixed another one for you 

It's all about perspectives I guess but to your credit at least you are transparently misrepresenting what I wrote / said 😛 

[Raja Clavata]

7 minutes ago, Mice! said:

Didn't Borris swing both ways? Whatever it takes to get what he wants, sure he did a speech for leave and remain.

On this much we agree. As I've suggested before he'd be great as a drinking buddy or after dinner speech but not as PM. I reckon he'd be a very amusing leader of the Conservative party in opposition though which is fine with me as long as it's not in opposition to the Labour Party.

[poontang]

9 hours ago, oowee said:

The Conservative Party manifesto for the 2015 general election did say “We are clear about what we want from Europe. We say: yes to the Single Market.”

Your posts are becoming more bizarre as this thread progresses.

Why on earth are you quoting the Tory manifesto from Cameron's party in 2015? We've moved on a bit since then. 

Yes, everyone knows Cameron said 'yes to the single market' but unfortunately for him the majority of voters who voted in 2016 said NO, we don't want it, and whilst they were at it they said NO to the customs union, the ECJ, the CAP, the CFP and everything else the EU and our own treacherous politicians have foisted, by stealth, upon us since 1973.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

5 hours ago, poontang said:

Your posts are becoming more bizarre as this thread progresses.

Why on earth are you quoting the Tory manifesto from Cameron's party in 2015? We've moved on a bit since then. 

Yes, everyone knows Cameron said 'yes to the single market' but unfortunately for him the majority of voters who voted in 2016 said NO, we don't want it, and whilst they were at it they said NO to the customs union, the ECJ, the CAP, the CFP and everything else the EU and our own treacherous politicians have foisted, by stealth, upon us since 1973.

That should be an end to it!

[walshie]

8 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

At least you, or at least I, can believe that Mogg believes what he says, I listened to Johnson tonight banging on about the delay etc. and I don't think he's being honest. It wouldn't surprise me if he's actually a Remainer at heart - completely unconvincing.

I still don't see a far right party coming to power but can see them being represented along with Labour, Conservatives and the new Change UK party - with our political constitution that looks like hell to me, we really do need electoral reforms.

I do wonder what May is up to with this latest twist, it's a complete change of tack, she might just be setting him (Corbyn) up big time. I reckon this effectively kicks no deal into touch and increases the probability of revocation of A50 more likely.

Mogg believes what he says, yes, but what has he done about it? It's as if May is taunting everyone with her own righteousness and invincibility but even Mogg said he would vote for her stupid deal. It might be better than no Brexit, but it isn't better than the other options. Johnson is a two-faced clown.

As you say, we probably won't get a "far-right" party in power just yet, but any Conservative party of years gone by would look like neo-Nazis compared to this wishy-washy version of Labour who have the cheek to call themselves Tories.

This latest escapade is either so she can share the blame with someone when it goes horribly wrong so both parties are equally unelectable, or she is hoping to get kicked out. There's been a few opportunities to get rid of her but no-one has taken them. Hopefully this is the final straw and even the most pathetic drips in her government will take action. 

Instead of all this muttering about coups and takeovers they should drag her out of No.10 by her scrawny neck and chuck her on the pavement followed by her bags and her weasel of a husband, then tell Corbyn to do one.  

The more cynical among us might think every last one of parliament were remainers and the talk of Brexiteers was just to keep the rabble quiet assuming someone was looking after their interests.

 

[wymberley]

41 minutes ago, walshie said:

Mogg believes what he says, yes, but what has he done about it? It's as if May is taunting everyone with her own righteousness and invincibility but even Mogg said he would vote for her stupid deal. It might be better than no Brexit, but it isn't better than the other options. Johnson is a two-faced clown.

As you say, we probably won't get a "far-right" party in power just yet, but any Conservative party of years gone by would look like neo-Nazis compared to this wishy-washy version of Labour who have the cheek to call themselves Tories.

This latest escapade is either so she can share the blame with someone when it goes horribly wrong so both parties are equally unelectable, or she is hoping to get kicked out. There's been a few opportunities to get rid of her but no-one has taken them. Hopefully this is the final straw and even the most pathetic drips in her government will take action. 

Instead of all this muttering about coups and takeovers they should drag her out of No.10 by her scrawny neck and chuck her on the pavement followed by her bags and her weasel of a husband, then tell Corbyn to do one.  

The more cynical among us might think every last one of parliament were remainers and the talk of Brexiteers was just to keep the rabble quiet assuming someone was looking after their interests.

 

The most sensible comment in 274 pages.

[Scully]

You can actually write to the PM herself. Of course she won’t see it, but one of her minions will reply with gushing platitudes of how she is doing her best for the country while delivering on the result of the referendum.

It won’t do any good or make a shred of difference of course, but I will feel much better letting head office know that as a devout remainder she has betrayed those who voted to leave the EU, and that neither my family nor I will ever vote Tory again. I think from now on my vote will be wasted; I’ve already returned my local ballot card explaining that it’s not needed. 

[hedge]

I don't even know how to put it into words any more.

Is it a conspiracy theory? It certainly looked like that when May did her `deal` (or did they just have per pants down?). 

The EU didn't want us to leave and neither did Parliamennt, so we'll just frustrate the whole thing for 3 years, revoke A.50 and live happily ever after.

The root cause of this for me is May getting a cr*p deal - whether intentional or not. I am just so annoyed with her arrogance and /or sense of denial. To lose MV1 and 2 and then say "the people have spoken and we have listened" - oh really? She was told way before that (she was on her 3rd Brexit secretary by then). Taking it to the wire like that was very arrogant (or stupid). Losing a massive majority by calling a snap election should have told us something about her ability to make good decisions.

Her deal might still go through, who knows but the Tory party's lack of cohension and backbone has really left a bad taste. Ultimately, they have been asked to deliver something that they don't really believe in. JRM, Boris et al, they only care about their careers. Both eying the PM prize. It's just a game to them.

It again boils down to asking career politicians to make tough `business` decisions when all they are interested in is job security and the Westminster gravy train. 

As for Corbyn - OMG. The Labour party should be all over this like a rash - the best opportunity ever to challenge for power and what have they done? Practically nothing. Corbyn is so undynamic, lack of personality. Labour need to ditch him to stand any chance.

I will vote at the next GE because that's the only way I can have a voice. I voted to Brexit and I feel that has (to date) been partly betrayed. Protesting in Westminster won't change anything. I just have no idea who to vote for. The Tories have really disappointed me and I can't vote for Corbyn, even though he and the Labour party should be in the ascendancy. 

With a choice of 2, you either vote for your usual, protest vote or don't vote. I'll see if any of the smaller parties offer anything that I feel is of interest but ultimately it could be a wasted vote.

Time for proportional representation? We'll have more hung Parliaments and coalitions. Just like a lot of Europe. Not sure if that's a good thing or not.

No deal Brexit should be the default position, even if it gets the EU back round the table to thrash out a better deal. 

[Raja Clavata]

2 hours ago, walshie said:

Mogg believes what he says, yes, but what has he done about it? It's as if May is taunting everyone with her own righteousness and invincibility but even Mogg said he would vote for her stupid deal. It might be better than no Brexit, but it isn't better than the other options. Johnson is a two-faced clown.

As you say, we probably won't get a "far-right" party in power just yet, but any Conservative party of years gone by would look like neo-Nazis compared to this wishy-washy version of Labour who have the cheek to call themselves Tories.

This latest escapade is either so she can share the blame with someone when it goes horribly wrong so both parties are equally unelectable, or she is hoping to get kicked out. There's been a few opportunities to get rid of her but no-one has taken them. Hopefully this is the final straw and even the most pathetic drips in her government will take action. 

Instead of all this muttering about coups and takeovers they should drag her out of No.10 by her scrawny neck and chuck her on the pavement followed by her bags and her weasel of a husband, then tell Corbyn to do one.  

The more cynical among us might think every last one of parliament were remainers and the talk of Brexiteers was just to keep the rabble quiet assuming someone was looking after their interests.

 

Answer to the Mogg question, not much in truth and he changed his mind on the TM deal vote it seems.

Irrespective of views on Brexit, it's hard not to be cynical and start entertaining conspiracy theories but I reckon at least a handful of MPs are true to their word.

The issue with chucking May out is who or what replaces her, I've been conflicted between having empathy for her mission impossible task on Brexit and at times at a complete loss but realistically I don't know who is a better option.

The discussions with Corbyn are intriguing, by reaching out to him she risks implosion of her own party and for him to engage without holding firm on a customs union and a second referendum he risks the same within his own party. Maybe it's a suicide pact. The problem for the Tories is if it ends well then it kinda rubbishes their claim of Corbyn being a non entity and not fit for office.

49 minutes ago, hedge said:

I don't even know how to put it into words any more.

Is it a conspiracy theory? It certainly looked like that when May did her `deal` (or did they just have per pants down?). 

The EU didn't want us to leave and neither did Parliamennt, so we'll just frustrate the whole thing for 3 years, revoke A.50 and live happily ever after.

The root cause of this for me is May getting a cr*p deal - whether intentional or not. I am just so annoyed with her arrogance and /or sense of denial. To lose MV1 and 2 and then say "the people have spoken and we have listened" - oh really? She was told way before that (she was on her 3rd Brexit secretary by then). Taking it to the wire like that was very arrogant (or stupid). Losing a massive majority by calling a snap election should have told us something about her ability to make good decisions.

Her deal might still go through, who knows but the Tory party's lack of cohension and backbone has really left a bad taste. Ultimately, they have been asked to deliver something that they don't really believe in. JRM, Boris et al, they only care about their careers. Both eying the PM prize. It's just a game to them.

It again boils down to asking career politicians to make tough `business` decisions when all they are interested in is job security and the Westminster gravy train. 

As for Corbyn - OMG. The Labour party should be all over this like a rash - the best opportunity ever to challenge for power and what have they done? Practically nothing. Corbyn is so undynamic, lack of personality. Labour need to ditch him to stand any chance.

I will vote at the next GE because that's the only way I can have a voice. I voted to Brexit and I feel that has (to date) been partly betrayed. Protesting in Westminster won't change anything. I just have no idea who to vote for. The Tories have really disappointed me and I can't vote for Corbyn, even though he and the Labour party should be in the ascendancy. 

With a choice of 2, you either vote for your usual, protest vote or don't vote. I'll see if any of the smaller parties offer anything that I feel is of interest but ultimately it could be a wasted vote.

Time for proportional representation? We'll have more hung Parliaments and coalitions. Just like a lot of Europe. Not sure if that's a good thing or not.

No deal Brexit should be the default position, even if it gets the EU back round the table to thrash out a better deal. 

Good post and agree with all but the no deal bit, I agree as a bargaining tool but I think that boat already sailed.

Do you really think JRM is after the PM job?

[panoma1]

57 minutes ago, hedge said:

I don't even know how to put it into words any more.

Is it a conspiracy theory? It certainly looked like that when May did her `deal` (or did they just have per pants down?). 

The EU didn't want us to leave and neither did Parliamennt, so we'll just frustrate the whole thing for 3 years, revoke A.50 and live happily ever after.

The root cause of this for me is May getting a cr*p deal - whether intentional or not. I am just so annoyed with her arrogance and /or sense of denial. To lose MV1 and 2 and then say "the people have spoken and we have listened" - oh really? She was told way before that (she was on her 3rd Brexit secretary by then). Taking it to the wire like that was very arrogant (or stupid). Losing a massive majority by calling a snap election should have told us something about her ability to make good decisions.

Her deal might still go through, who knows but the Tory party's lack of cohension and backbone has really left a bad taste. Ultimately, they have been asked to deliver something that they don't really believe in. JRM, Boris et al, they only care about their careers. Both eying the PM prize. It's just a game to them.

It again boils down to asking career politicians to make tough `business` decisions when all they are interested in is job security and the Westminster gravy train. 

As for Corbyn - OMG. The Labour party should be all over this like a rash - the best opportunity ever to challenge for power and what have they done? Practically nothing. Corbyn is so undynamic, lack of personality. Labour need to ditch him to stand any chance.

I will vote at the next GE because that's the only way I can have a voice. I voted to Brexit and I feel that has (to date) been partly betrayed. Protesting in Westminster won't change anything. I just have no idea who to vote for. The Tories have really disappointed me and I can't vote for Corbyn, even though he and the Labour party should be in the ascendancy. 

With a choice of 2, you either vote for your usual, protest vote or don't vote. I'll see if any of the smaller parties offer anything that I feel is of interest but ultimately it could be a wasted vote.

Time for proportional representation? We'll have more hung Parliaments and coalitions. Just like a lot of Europe. Not sure if that's a good thing or not.

No deal Brexit should be the default position, even if it gets the EU back round the table to thrash out a better deal. 

The myth that politicians are more competent to run this country than joe public is finally bust!......they are just in politics for personal gain........with little if any accountability, and let's face it's better and more lucrative than working for a living!

I haven't decided what I personally will do now, but I will not put my vote to give power to these parasites again....protest vote? Possibly.

[Rewulf]

Some excellent stuff in the last page.

Ill say this , dont waste your vote.
The only reason we got a referendum was the 4 million UKIP votes that scared the bejesus out of the tories in 2015

UK vote share after 650 of 650 seats

Party	%
CON	36.9
LAB	30.4
UKIP	12.6
LD	7.9
SNP	4.7
GRN	3.8

The only reason you know the name of Nigel Farage, is because people keep voting him in to the EU parliament.

Let May do her thing with Corbyn, the man doesnt have the wit to see the trap shes laid for him.
But get ready for a GE , because its surely coming.

 

 

[ditchman]

as Panoma says ............................2 words.............PROTEST VOTE..............if people are that wound up and do a protest vote...it will remind the "govt" what democrasy really is

[hedge]

32 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Do you really think JRM is after the PM job?

To be honest Raja, i don't know any more! 6 months ago I would have said he'd be a prime candidate as he seemed to have a lot of support. My father in law thought he was the best thing since sliced bread. Personally, I thought he came across as  slightly arrogant/pompous public school boy who acted like he knew everything (standard Tory attitude?).

Since his MV3 u-turn ("I'm in if the DUP are in - oh they're not - ok, I'm out") I think he's shown his true colours and lost some credibility (even my FIL isn't sure if he's the man he thought he was...)

I always assume that these sorts of people want the top job,  but maybe not. He's happy sitting in  the sidelines, sticking the knife in and then waiting for the fallout. I think a lot of MP's are happier not in the top job as it's a bit of a poison chalice. They'd rather be out of the firing line but still stick their oar in when it suits them. 

Boris is just as bad, if not worse. I think the guy is a public school baffoon. He was there in '16 supporting Brexit just to get at Cameron and get an angle on the PM job. He never expected it to suceeed. He subsequently distanced himself from it and now that TM's house of cards is falling down, he's come out of the woodwork. I think he's only managed a couple of U-turns in the last week. He's meant to be front runner for the PM's job as well.

29 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

The myth that politicians are more competent to run this country than joe public is finally bust!......they are just in politics for personal gain........with little if any accountability, and let's face it's better and more lucrative than working for a living!

I haven't decided what I personally will do now, but I will not put my vote to give power to these parasites again....protest vote? Possibly.

I remember being told when I studied Politics that the MP's are only the window dessing in Parliament. They change every 4/5 years (not completely but they come and go, elections get held etc). Behind those MP's are the civil service, the Whitehall Mandarins who arguably `run` Whitehall and serve whoever the governing party are. They don't change when the Govt does.

My Dad used to watch Yes Minister when I was a child. I never understood it, but now I find it (sadly) hilariously accurate, and it ages really well. We need a modern version of it:

Theresa May - Are you sure this is a good deal?

Mandarin - Yes Prime Minister - after all, you are delivering Brexit

TM - Do you think we're giving the EU too much?

M - Oh no Prime Minister - it's what the people wanted

TM - Oh Ok - do you think history will remember me for this?

M - Oh, Yes Minister......

Even if we kick out the current Govt, the back office function will remain and maybe that's part of the problem. Too much history, `tradition`, bureaucracy and secret handshakes.

Whether there is a political/electoral revolution, I don't know. I think very little will change. The peasants revolt, we have a GE, new people promise to `review` stuff and in 2 or 3 years time sod all has been done about it and all is forgotten. Government is about appeasing the electorate whilst furthering their own position. Or as my Dad used to say, "spending a lot of time, effort and money achieving very little".

I think that once Brexit (or not) is finally resolved, we'll get a better view of the future political landscape, whatever that may be.

Edited April 3, 2019 by hedge

[Mice!]

Surely the only way a protest vote works is if there is a party to vote for? 

Didn't ukip get 14 million votes and only 1MP at the last election?

[TIGHTCHOKE]

34 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

The myth that politicians are more competent to run this country than joe public is finally bust!......they are just in politics for personal gain........with little if any accountability, and let's face it's better and more lucrative than working for a living!

I haven't decided what I personally will do now, but I will not put my vote to give power to these parasites again....protest vote? Possibly.

That "myth" was busted years ago and still they continue to ignore the will of the people and carry on feeding from the trough

Edited April 3, 2019 by TIGHTCHOKE
SYNTAX!

[Rewulf]

11 minutes ago, Mice! said:

Surely the only way a protest vote works is if there is a party to vote for? 

Didn't ukip get 14 million votes and only 1MP at the last election?

No , they got 4 million in 2015, which made them the 3rd largest party by popular vote.

By a cruel twist, it gave them 1 MP , who was a tory defector anyway.
14 million would have put them into power.

[walshie]

Theresa May held the poison chalice as soon as she was made PM. An unenviable job I admit, but she's had plenty of chances to step down when she knew she wasn't up to the task. it's only her own arrogance and belief she's right and everyone else is wrong that has kept her where she is. (Along with her husband's EU interests obvs).

Nothing would please me more than a no deal Brexit, but second on the list would be to see that witch ousted. I hope there's plenty of footage of the tears of outrage when she finally realises she's nothing but a puppet for the EU and everyone bar her can see though it. Fingers crossed it won't be long. Anyone could make a better fist of this dog's breakfast than that stupid woman. 

[Mice!]

7 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

No , they got 4 million in 2015, which made them the 3rd largest party by popular vote.

By a cruel twist, it gave them 1 MP , who was a tory defector anyway.
14 million would have put them into power.

That makes more sense 🤐🤐

[Brixsmaid]

14 minutes ago, walshie said:

"Anyone could make a better fist of this dog's breakfast than that stupid woman." 

I'm not sure there is anyone left!

 

Edited April 3, 2019 by Brixsmaid
typo