Brexit - merged threads

[old man]

As an aside Spain/EU. Looking for Gibraltar back? 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

2 minutes ago, old man said:

As an aside Spain/EU. Looking for Gibraltar back? 

Well at least it's closer than going all the way to South Atlantic.

[old man]

12 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Well at least it's closer than going all the way to South Atlantic.

Yep, true. They haven't given up either?

[JohnfromUK]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Ireland, do you not see how the EU made conundrum is going to make either capitulation on our part, or collapse of the talks inevitable?

There will need to be 'a border' if we wish (as we do) to control immigration in a tighter way than the EU ........ because otherwise migrants will make their way from wherever through the EU to Ireland and cross into the UK.  That was always inevitable and would be as long as we have the type of benefits system that attracts free loaders.

Should the EU wish to impose duties and controls on UK (and good from, but not necessarily 'made in' the UK) goods entering the EU, then the EU will have to have customs posts on the Irish side of the border.

Should we wish to impose duties and controls on EU goods entering the UK, (and I don't believe we do) then the we will have to have customs posts on the UK side of the border, but I don't think that is what we want at all.

[Rewulf]

9 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

There will need to be 'a border' if we wish (as we do) to control immigration in a tighter way than the EU ........ because otherwise migrants will make their way from wherever through the EU to Ireland and cross into the UK.  That was always inevitable and would be as long as we have the type of benefits system that attracts free loaders.

 

Do you mean like when a migrant from outside the EU travels through several EU and non EU countries unchallenged to then reside in a camp within an EU country, and makes repeated illegal attempts to cross into a secure area, to gain access to their preferred destination?
Do you mean those sort of borders?

Or do you mean EU migrants crossing into a soon to be non EU country to work ?
Who, to work must have some kind of visa/ green card to be legally employed, and could simply do that from the channel, or airports like they do now ?

This conversation has been done before, to get to the NI border, hard or soft, they first have to get to Ireland (S) 
If they do their immigration work correctly, then that shouldnt be a problem, unless they will behave like France does and just wave them through, but then they have to tackle an Irish sea crossing or a plane trip out of Belfast, or they can join the black market economy in NI, and see how that works out for them.

20 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

 

Should the EU wish to impose duties and controls on UK (and good from, but not necessarily 'made in' the UK) goods entering the EU, then the EU will have to have customs posts on the Irish side of the border.

Should we wish to impose duties and controls on EU goods entering the UK, (and I don't believe we do) then the we will have to have customs posts on the UK side of the border, but I don't think that is what we want at all.

Is that how it works with all the other countries in Europe that arent in the EU ?
Does the EU want to man every road on the entire border 24/7 ?
Check every car, disrupt day to day Irish life ? We dont..
How do we say it , is it Irexit ?

[JohnfromUK]

5 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Do you mean like when a migrant from outside the EU travels through several EU and non EU countries unchallenged to then reside in a camp within an EU country, and makes repeated illegal attempts to cross into a secure area, to gain access to their preferred destination?
Do you mean those sort of borders?

Yes, exactly those sort of borders, just as there is at Calais now (I presume) which is why they have the big camps there.

 

3 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

If they do their immigration work correctly, then that shouldnt be a problem

We know that they don't.  Indeed Merkel welcomes them in.

5 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Is that how it works with all the other countries in Europe that aren't in the EU ?

I don't know how they do it elsewhere.  If they wish to charge WTO level tariffs on UK goods entering the EU, that will be their problem to administer.  I don't believe we want to charge tariffs on EU goods entering the UK (do we??), so there is no problem to us on our side.  However if we wish tom impose 'tit for tat' tariffs (Trump style) - then we will also have to set up customs posts

It is the uncertainty in these areas that made me nervous about the whole 'leave' process (as I have previously stated, despite grave misgivings about the EU and the shambles it is, I voted remain, but I'm now supporting leave because that is how the vote went).

[Retsdon]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

do you think Barnier has conducted a fair and balanced negotiation ?

Yes, I do. He's doing his job which is to defend the integrity of the single market.

 

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Ireland, do you not see how the EU made conundrum

How is it an EU made conundrum? After 45 years it's the UK that is leaving the EU, not the other way about. I don't know why this is even a matter of contention. The whole basis and foundation of the EU is that its internal borders are - certainly for the purposes of goods and services -  entirely porous. And so with the Republic in the EU, when the UK leaves, unless the UK stays in the EEA, the external border of the EU for goods and services - which is certainly not entirely porous -  will effectively be moved to the Lifford Bridge, etc unless some other arrangement can be made. But this is  not a problem of the EU's making. What is the EU supposed to do? Pretend that the UK isn't going to leave and do away with its external border? For historical reasons nobody wants border posts in Ireland. So the EU has proposed that N.I. be made a special case, and the external border of the EU be moved to the Irish Sea. But apparently, that's not acceptable. So what is acceptable?

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

So the EU has proposed that N.I. be made a special case, and the external border of the EU be moved to the Irish Sea. But apparently, that's not acceptable.

Of course that is not acceptable; that would amount to in internal border between different parts of the UK, which is totally unacceptable, just a border between England and Wales would be unacceptable.  They simply put that idea forward to stir up trouble.

[Retsdon]

1 minute ago, JohnfromUK said:

Of course that is not acceptable;

So what is it that you think should happen?

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, Retsdon said:

So what is it that you think should happen?

The EU needs to agree a 'free trade deal' much as we have now covering goods and services, but minus immigration and minus their legal court overriding our court.  We have basically offered them a £39 billion sweetener to do just that - and we have been quite clear all along that these were our 'red lines'.

[Retsdon]

7 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

The EU needs to agree a 'free trade deal' much as we have now covering goods and services, but minus immigration and minus their legal court overriding our court. 

What you're suggesting is that the EU compromise 'the four freedoms', and that is never ever going to happen. The four freedoms were the founding pillars of the Treaty of Rome.

[panoma1]

How many have stuck to their principles to the end, whilst slowly sinking with a stricken ship? These are politicians we are talking about ............they have no principles!

7 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

What you're suggesting is that the EU compromise 'the four freedoms', and that is never ever going to happen. The four freedoms were the founding pillars of the Treaty of Rome.

 

[JohnfromUK]

19 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

What you're suggesting is that the EU compromise 'the four freedoms', and that is never ever going to happen. The four freedoms were the founding pillars of the Treaty of Rome.

No I'm not.  The Four Pillars (or freedoms) are free movement of;

• goods,
• capital,
• services,
• labour

No problem with any of those where there is a suitable understanding that labour is freedom to work, not freedom to live here on our benefits system and not contribute.

What I am suggesting is that Barnier needs to understand the difference between 'negotiating' and 'dictating'.  Someting the EU has never really understood.

[Rewulf]

36 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

Yes, I do. He's doing his job which is to defend the integrity of the single market.

 

No, his job is to negotiate.
If the single market is the red line, and there can be no free trade deal without it, or without a customs union, then what are we negotiating about ?
Why is their a divorce bill ?
If that was the case from the start, why have we wasted all this time negotiating, when it could never be achieved ?
We could have gone for WTO rules and started preparing for that.
THEY have dangled the carrot in front of us for 2 years, knowing full well we could never have it.
So, in that respect Mr Barnier has done an excellent job !

41 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

 

How is it an EU made conundrum? After 45 years it's the UK that is leaving the EU, not the other way about. I don't know why this is even a matter of contention. The whole basis and foundation of the EU is that its internal borders are - certainly for the purposes of goods and services -  entirely porous. And so with the Republic in the EU, when the UK leaves, unless the UK stays in the EEA, the external border of the EU for goods and services - which is certainly not entirely porous -  will effectively be moved to the Lifford Bridge, etc unless some other arrangement can be made. But this is  not a problem of the EU's making. What is the EU supposed to do? Pretend that the UK isn't going to leave and do away with its external border? For historical reasons nobody wants border posts in Ireland. So the EU has proposed that N.I. be made a special case, and the external border of the EU be moved to the Irish Sea. But apparently, that's not acceptable. So what is acceptable?

So we are not allowed to leave  ?
Is the EU a one way ticket to wherever it chooses to take us?
The EU changed, so we are changing our mind about being a member, I could think of plenty of analogies about a club changing its rules, fees , constitution, then making you bleed because you no longer wish to be a member !
We are no longer going to put up with it, and them trying to steal part of our country shows just another reason why we are leaving, they care NOTHING for Ireland ,North or South, yet we must listen to how they are so 'concerned for the integrity' of the good Friday agreement, they make me sick !
When was it ever mentioned before ?! Never, until they saw a way to break Brexit, or break the UK.
If only our politicians has some balls, and brains to see through them.

9 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

No I'm not.  The Four Pillars (or freedoms) are free movement of;

• goods,
• capital,
• services,
• labour

No problem with any of those where there is a suitable understanding that labour is freedom to work, not freedom to live here on our benefits system and not contribute.

What I am suggesting is that Barnier needs to understand the difference between 'negotiating' and 'dictating'.  Someting the EU has never really understood.

Excellent reply ?

[Mice!]

8 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Im sure they do quote

see what i did, i quoted but only the part that suits my needs and how many people look beyond the headlines or really look into a story.

[old man]

To expect our politicians to do anything other than cave in and give it all away has become a dream?

If they were bright enough to turn the free money and benefits off immediately that would stem the flow?

Get the troops on the borders?

Sorry I just woke up. ?

Edited August 11, 2018 by old man
spelling

[Thunderbird]

It's a long-form article but I thought it was good: https://quillette.com/2018/08/03/britains-populist-revolt/

[Rewulf]

22 minutes ago, Thunderbird said:

It's a long-form article but I thought it was good: https://quillette.com/2018/08/03/britains-populist-revolt/

Very good article.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Just reading through it now, some very good points raised.

"The more English people felt the more likely they would support Brexit."

Edited August 10, 2018 by TIGHTCHOKE

[Gordon R]

Excellent article.

[hambone]

4 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Just reading through it now, some very good points raised.

"The more English people felt the more likely they would support Brexit."

I don't feel very English but supported Brexit....Confused as **** now, need a cwtch and a remainer to gang up on. ?

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Did you read the article in the link?

[hambone]

42 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Did you read the article in the link?

Yes fella, I was taking the **** ?

[old man]

Was simple for me, Democracy!

Not wishing to be governed by non elected politicos in la la land, no fiscal sense.

John Major is the one to blame for this mess, closer political union? My ***.

[12gauge82]

https://www-express-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1002606/Brexit-news-UK-EU-no-deal-hit-Brussels-harder-latest-Theresa-May/amp?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1#amp_tf=From %1%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.express.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fuk%2F1002606%2FBrexit-news-UK-EU-no-deal-hit-Brussels-harder-latest-Theresa-May

Reality starting to kick in for the EU?

I just hope the EU continue to be so unreasonable it forces a no deal, it would be far better than any "deal" Theresa the appeaser and the rest of her remainiac friends will come up with.