BREXIT

[Yellow Bear]

2 hours ago, SpringDon said:

It could be a symptom of a transition from an oligarchy to a ochlocracy.

I would suggest that parts of London have completed the transit already.

[Stonepark]

3 hours ago, Mice! said:

The way the Snp are going there will be barbed wire on Hadrian's wall soon anyway, if they get their way.

Major Shipping Canal from solway to newcastle as a short cut into main EU ports....... 😜

[Newbie to this]

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

Nobody is contesting what the will of the people was over 40 months ago!

I will,

Since when did the referendum result have a time limit.

Oh wait, it did didn't it. Yes that's right once in a lifetime. 40 months seems rather short for a lifetime!

If you are suggesting that after X amount of time then the result should be null and void, then that should have been the date that we left regardless of whether any deal had been secured. Thus honouring the referendum and promises made.

[Raja Clavata]

25 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

I will,

Since when did the referendum result have a time limit.

Oh wait, it did didn't it. Yes that's right once in a lifetime. 40 months seems rather short for a lifetime!

If you are suggesting that after X amount of time then the result should be null and void, then that should have been the date that we left regardless of whether any deal had been secured. Thus honouring the referendum and promises made.

In what appears to over-bearing desire or need to be at odds with what I stated you appear to be losing the plot somewhat.

I was suggesting nothing of the sort but I do however suggest there is a 'fair' chance that there will be a further public vote on Brexit before it actually happens.

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Ahh, the old, you don't know what you're voting for slur. 

Followed by. 

An opinion, masquerading as fact. 

Why don't you move to the next step, and confirm to yourself that Brexit is 'impossible' 

Go on, you know you want to 😋

Given your extensive research when do you predict the UK will conclude negotiations on it's future trading relationship with the EU?

There is of course a lot more to Brexit than just trade with the EU but it's a good one for starters.

[Newbie to this]

5 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I was suggesting nothing of the sort but I do however suggest there is a 'fair' chance that there will be a further public vote on Brexit before it actually happens.

That may well be the case, but it will be a sad day if it does happen and effectively it will be the end of our democracy, in so far as, what would be the point in voting, if they are just going to get you to vote, until they get their desired outcome.  

As I have stated before this course of action is wholly anti-democratic and so is anybody advocating it!

[Raja Clavata]

6 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

That may well be the case, but it will be a sad day if it does happen and effectively it will be the end of our democracy, in so far as, what would be the point in voting, if they are just going to get you to vote, until they get their desired outcome.  

As I have stated before this course of action is wholly anti-democratic and so is anybody advocating it!

You are of course entitled to your opinion and to express it freely. Mine is that a second vote is not anti-democratic or the end of democracy; if you really believe that it would come about for cynical purposes then I'd suggest you really would need to vote in it. I genuinely don't see it as having n attempts at getting the desired outcome but a refinement of the details based on choices.

Anyway it will be a moot point if Boris gets his deal through Parliament tomorrow.

[das]

4 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

You are of course entitled to your opinion and to express it freely. Mine is that a second vote is not anti-democratic or the end of democracy; if you really believe that it would come about for cynical purposes then I'd suggest you really would need to vote in it. I genuinely don't see it as having n attempts at getting the desired outcome but a refinement of the details based on choices.

Anyway it will be a moot point if Boris gets his deal through Parliament tomorrow.

Best of 3 + toss of a coin. Would that suit our remoaners?  Probably not.

[Newbie to this]

8 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Anyway it will be a moot point if Boris gets his deal through Parliament tomorrow.

Which isn't very likely.

And on the second referendum point, it will make our democratic decision in 2016 void, so effectively if the vote gets overturned then those of us that voted leave would have had democracy snatched from us. So yes democracy would be dead as far as I'm concerned. 

Edit to add - if there is to be a confirmatory referendum, then the options should only be leave options.  Somthing like Boris' deal vs WTO Brexit

Edited October 18, 2019 by Newbie to this

[Raja Clavata]

7 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

Which isn't very likely.

And on the second referendum point, it will make our democratic decision in 2016 void, so effectively if the vote gets overturned then those of us that voted leave would have had democracy snatched from us. So yes democracy would be dead as far as I'm concerned. 

Edit to add - if there is to be a confirmatory referendum, then the options should only be leave options.  Somthing like Boris' deal vs WTO Brexit

So we can only have a second undemocratic vote if the choices themselves are undemocratic? I am certainly not suggesting that a second vote is ideal but have felt for a while that it might possibly be the only way forward. As I have said before, I believe a second vote for leaving under specific terms would nail it for the majority of pro-remainers, it certainly would for me.

[Rewulf]

39 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Given your extensive research when do you predict the UK will conclude negotiations on it's future trading relationship with the EU?

December 2020, as stated in the WA, I would imagine? 

13 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

Edit to add - if there is to be a confirmatory referendum, then the options should only be leave options.  Somthing like Boris' deal vs WTO Brexit

The bolt on condition of a confirmatory ref, mooted as being part of tomorrows vote, has now been ruled out. 

It's said there isn't enough parliamentary support for it, so it won't happen. 

 

[Newbie to this]

8 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

if the choices themselves are undemocratic?

How so? We have already had a IN, OUT referendum.

Why should the losers get a second go? This is effectively what you and others advocating a second referendum want right, a second go at getting a remain result. That is wholly undemocratic.

Let's put all the leave options on it then, just no remain option, that has been decided already.

Edited October 18, 2019 by Newbie to this

[Cosmicblue]

Back in 2016 when our evidently superficial politicians offered the country the chance to vote on EU membership it's clear that there was a nary a thought as to how the objective would be achieved if Leave was the majority vote.  So now we have a democracy that's been promised something that's nigh on impossible to delivery without ******* of one half of the electorate or the other.   Second vote or not a sizeable chunk of the population are going to be fed up with the result - it's just a total mess.

[Retsdon]

1 hour ago, SpringDon said:

When you concentrate on the prejudices of your audience, it does not reflect an increase in the general prejudices. It is just subset of the audience.

I see what you mean. Bu I think in the end it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy and prejudice does increase - and that's not the fault of the audience either. Take Mark Carney and his 'prediction' of economic damage from a No result in the Brexit poll. He's widely vilified for scare-mongering because what he actually said was totally misrepresented. He said 'there might be a possibility ' of a no vote having a negative economic impact. That's nothing like the same thing as a prediction, and yet that's how it was spun - by both sides. How can the audience decide anything at all properly when they're deliberately being misinformed and manipulated in this kind of way all the time? 

Anyway, we'll see what happens with Johnson's deal. From what I can make out he got his agreement so quickly by simply caving in to every EU demand. The Irish Sea border was the EU's preferred position at the outset, and as long as two years ago they were throwing the UK the bone of 'an FTA 'anytime'. And what they mean by that is that you can go out and the door will lock behind you.Then we'll see what you're prepared to give up to get a foot back inside again. (don't start building fishing boats anytime soon)

So it would seem that Johnson and his coterie have either been trussed up like chickens or else they've deliberately sacrificed the country's future welfare on the alter of their own ambition. As the whole lot are both shallow and mendacious it's difficult to know which to choose. Probably an even split.

[Newbie to this]

42 minutes ago, Cosmicblue said:

without ******* of one half of the electorate or the other.

Doesn't this more or less happen after every election?

Only the losers accept the vote. Something that a lot of remainers have been unable/unwilling to do! 

[Gordon R]

Quote

 

An opinion, masquerading as fact. 

Why don't you move to the next step, and confirm to yourself that Brexit is 'impossible' 

Go on, you know you want to 😋

 

Referee - stop the fight. He's had enough punishment.😉

[Raja Clavata]

35 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

December 2020, as stated in the WA, I would imagine? 

Does the Dec 2020 date take into account the latest delay to 31st October?

26 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

Doesn't this more or less happen after every election?

With the opportunity to reverse the decision at least every 5 years, not once a lifetime.

 

Apologies for the weird reply merges.

[Newbie to this]

10 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Apologies for the weird reply merges.

For starters no need to apologise.

10 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

With the opportunity to reverse the decision at least every 5 years, not once a lifetime.

The main difference being that the result of a General Election is implemented with almost immediate effect. Not dither for years and then undemocratically try to overturn it before it is enacted.

[Rewulf]

20 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Does the Dec 2020 date take into account the latest delay to 31st October

So they said, 14 months to iron out the trade deal rather than 22, but here's the weird bit, they say they will begin these talks in June? 

I suspect much of the groundwork was already done? Well, let's hope so, otherwise the last 2 years has been one big stalling exercise 

Letwin Amendment
Letwin has tabled an amendment tomorrow which, if passed, would force Boris to seek an A50 Extension until 31 January even if MPs approve his deal.   
It is supported, among others, by Revoker Jo Swinson, giving lie to the suggestion that the purpose thereof is to prevent No Deal.
If it is selected and does pass, that means that 'Super Saturday' would in fact be no such thing. 
They really are beneath contempt.
 

[Rewulf]

'Whatever it is, its going to be bad' 😂

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/iain-dale/iain-dale-is-forced-to-correct-lib-dem-brexit/

[JohnfromUK]

21 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

'Whatever it is, its going to be bad' 😂

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/iain-dale/iain-dale-is-forced-to-correct-lib-dem-brexit/

I think she has been taking lessons ........ from Diane Abbott

[Rewulf]

14 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

I think she has been taking lessons ........ from Diane Abbott

Seems to be the way with the opposition, don't bother researching what it is, or what it implies, just oppose it! 

Meanwhile, freedom and rights group Liberty has a go at subverting democracy 😂 and fails. 

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-brexit-court-rejects-bid-20647863

Must be the last chance saloon for the remainders? 

I'm half expecting a naked Miller or soubry to chain themselves to the door of the commons in the morning 😱 they've already got someone climbing up big Ben 🤣

[Raja Clavata]

2 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I'm half expecting a naked Miller or soubry to chain themselves to the door of the commons in the morning 😱 they've already got someone climbing up big Ben 🤣

If there's a vote on which one, then Miller please 🙂 I'll say no more because it got me in trouble before 😛 

To be fair I thought the Big Ben arborealist is an ER nut job.

[Rewulf]

2 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

To be fair I thought the Big Ben arborealist is an ER nut job

Don't ruin it! 😋

He's dressed as BJ apparently. 

[bluesj]

So now that BJ has managed to work out a deal someone wants it amended so they can have more time to stop it later

[Retsdon]

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/The-economic-impact-of-Boris-Johnsons-Brexit-proposals.pdf

"As with all forecasts, the findings of this report should be used with caution. We have set out explicitly our assumptions and highlighted the many uncertainties involved in producing forecasts of long-term economic performance. The forecasts give an indication of the scale of the impact of Mr Johnson’s proposals. Our main insight is that his proposals sit somewhere in between Mrs May’s deal and a WTO scenario in terms of negative economic impact. The impact on income per capita is negative in all scenarios, but Mr Johnson’s proposals would be more damaging than Mrs May’s deal."

Make of it what you will. 

And just what the country needs on top of this - https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/13302

Edited October 18, 2019 by Retsdon