Independence for Scotland

[oowee]

Just now, KB1 said:

I find all this talk of division quite depressing😢  I'm "English" by birth, but Scotland has played a much bigger part in my life than our Capital and surrounding areas have……..

Working together works quite well if there is a will to do so.

I hope its a view shared by a majority of the Scotts. 

[grrclark]

23 minutes ago, oowee said:

I am with this but add the caveat of geography and integration with the uk systems. With brexit uncertainty its not clear if an independent scotland would have an open border with the uk. Add the question of currency. Adopting sterling might on the face of it work but the uk could well devalue the currency and Scotland by default end up breaking EU rules. The uk position is precarious enough? 

If the UK leaving the EU is an act of faith, Scotland opting for independence at the same time is an act of ... i dont have the words. 

The added complications of the UK not being in the EU will have huge implications in any future debate for Scottish independence, i have no doubt about that at all.

My gut feeling is that Sturgeon is agitating for the right to have a referendum only because she needs to be seen to do that.  In any other situation the next Scottish election would see the SNP significantly diminsihed if it were not for the fact of the underlying independence narrative that still appeals to a big percentage of the Scottish electorate.

There are still some huge questions the SNP need to answer on independence and currency is right at the top of that list ad as you suggest that questions just got a whole lot harder to answer as well.

 

[Perazzishot]

Graham, I do to think Scotland could survive and prosper being Independent just not under SNP governance.

I feel by the time they were found out in government it would be too late for anyone to resurrect our fortunes and the long term damage would be felt longer than my generation and my childrens.

[grrclark]

7 minutes ago, KB1 said:

I find all this talk of division quite depressing😢  I'm "English" by birth, but Scotland has played a much bigger part in my life than our Capital and surrounding areas have……..

Working together works quite well if there is a will to do so.

Agreed, the division is so sad to witness.  There is an underlying rhetoric in the indy movement and it is one of hate, whether it is the thankfully small minority of English hate or the much larger element of hatred of Tories, the message is unhealthy and divisive.

A quarter of the Scottish electorate are currently conservative voters, yet our national government peddles a message in every single political statement that encourages hatred towards that community.

Same as the rhetoric of the remain/leave campaigns and I very much hope that BoJo leads the Brexit community in dropping all the pejorative commentary against those that favoured remain, otherwise it will continue to foment divide.

1 minute ago, Perazzishot said:

Graham, I do to think Scotland could survive and prosper being Independent just not under SNP governance.

I feel by the time they were found out in government it would be too late for anyone to resurrect our fortunes and the long term damage would be felt longer than my generation and my childrens.

Agreed Andy.  The only way that Scotland could get to a position of independent success in relative quickness is by changing the narrative of what independence means now and that's simply not going to happen.

[oowee]

Boris had a strong no indy ref statement for his campaign. To agree to a ref lets down those voters supporting the tories north of the border. To resist it adds fiel to the fire of independence. Is his only way out to agree it with a delayed time table? 

[Newbie to this]

Maybe they just need to have it explained to them what a once in a generation referendum is!!!

Maybe they should explain it to everyone who seems to have no understanding of it 

[oowee]

3 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

Maybe they just need to have it explained to them what a once in a generation referendum is!!!

Maybe they should explain it to everyone who seems to have no understanding of it 

🤣since when did we live in a dictatorship? 

[grrclark]

33 minutes ago, oowee said:

Boris had a strong no indy ref statement for his campaign. To agree to a ref lets down those voters supporting the tories north of the border. To resist it adds fiel to the fire of independence. Is his only way out to agree it with a delayed time table? 

I think so, needs to be post substantive Brexit progress and after the 2021 Scottish elections, maybe even 2026

[wymberley]

2 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

No if about it now!

Out of context.

[Newbie to this]

42 minutes ago, oowee said:

🤣since when did we live in a dictatorship? 

[villaman]

Let us in England have the vote, I would vote to get rid of them and let’s see how the get on then 

[bigmcg]

In an independent Scotland we will construct a pipeline to sell water to England, import sunshine from England to boost tourism and Nessie has guaranteed to put in an appearance. It’s all sorted 😂

[Konor]

1 hour ago, villaman said:

Let us in England have the vote, I would vote to get rid of them and let’s see how the get on then 

You wouldn’t be getting rid of them you would be voting to give them independence and the right to run their own country. The tone of this  thread mimics the very attitude that anti independence voters complain about from some pro independence voters. I’d like to see Scotland successfully run its own country ,that would not diminish its strong links with England. It’s a pro independence vote not an anti English vote.

[panoma1]

I hope the constant anti English and acerbic anti Union rhetoric from the Scottish Nationalists, doesn’t cause a rift in the relationship between ordinary Scots and English people?..........However, in response to the continual England bashing criticism by the SNP, I fear it might? Lately I am hearing more and more comments, from ordinary English people, like “**** em! Let em go if they want to”..........It’s all well and good ordinary Scots insisting the majority of them want to stay in the Union, but at the same time by constantly voting for the Nationalists, they are sending out a contrary message!

[TRINITY]

12 minutes ago, Konor said:

You wouldn’t be getting rid of them you would be voting to give them independence and the right to run their own country. The tone of this  thread mimics the very attitude that anti independence voters complain about from some pro independence voters. I’d like to see Scotland successfully run its own country ,that would not diminish its strong links with England. It’s a pro independence vote not an anti English vote.

Serious question

Where would you draw the border ?

My limited understanding is that a majority of people in southern Scotland in the border area, all voted Tory and do not want to leave UK.  I suppose they could be taken out of the UK against their will just like the Scots are claiming the same about Brexit. 

[johnphilip]

10 minutes ago, TRINITY said:

Serious question

Where would you draw the border ?

My limited understanding is that a majority of people in southern Scotland in the border area, all voted Tory and do not want to leave UK.  I suppose they could be taken out of the UK against their will just like the Scots are claiming the same about Brexit. 

Well said here in dumfries and Galloway , we were once part of Northumberland. 

[Konor]

It’s for the people of Scotland to vote on independence if that should arise so obviously all Scots would have the vote as would all those living in Scotland. Just because a person votes for a unionist party does not necessarily mean they would not vote for independence, and just because a person votes SNP does not necessarily mean they will vote for independence. We would vote as a country.

 

[Konor]

7 minutes ago, johnphilip said:

Well said here in dumfries and Galloway , we were once part of Northumberland. 

I don’t think many Gallovidians would identify as English

[panoma1]

Scotland has already voted!........To stay in the Union.  
The Union (UK) had a referendum, and voted to leave the EU!.......The EU remainers wanted another referendum because the Union (UK) didn’t vote to stay in the EU....quite rightly, they didn’t get it!
The Scots Nationalists want another vote, because Scotland voted to remain in the Union!.....quite rightly they shouldn’t get one! This is democracy!.....Calling for multiple votes, until they get the result they want, isn’t!

 

[Konor]

If circumstances change so that the majority of Scots would vote to leave the union then they should have the opportunity to vote. They vote completely differently to England nationally and should have the right to run their own affairs to reflect that . That does not necessarily mean that independence is the goal just that Scots should have as much say as possible in the running of their own country. I would have no problem with England being run independently to reflect the wishes of those that live in England

[mudpatten]

That may well come to pass, but I suspect that the wishes of the English might be a lot less charitable towards the Scots than is currently the case.

 

[TRINITY]

I honestly don't really care one way or another what they, it's up to them after all.

On the plus side if they do leave, it may save England a few quid via monies handed over in the barnet formula.

However I think the main benefit to England would be this. Before the rise of the SNP ,labour were always able to guarantee  40 or 50 seats in a general election . At the moment they have lost that advantage, however SNP may fall into decline if they loose another referendum and all those seats could once more return yo labour. However should Scotland leave then those seats have gone forever and in my opinion would make it extremely difficult for labour to win a parliamentary majority ever again.

[Gordon R]

Perhaps Boris should set a date - 25 years forward from the last one.

We are all UK members. What next - independence for Northern Ireland, Wales, England or even London?

Circumstances might change, but just because the SNP won many seats, it doesn't give them the right to overrule the whole of the UK.

[Mice!]

18 hours ago, Perazzishot said:

Sturgeon is working on a 45% of the electorate yesterday to demand Indyref2 where she asked for her supporters to send a clear message to Westminster that Scotland deserves the right to a 2nd referendum. The people of Scotland have just done that 55% of the electorate voted to remain was part of the UK the same as last time.

54% of the UK electorate voted for 2 Brexit parties!

Almost the same as the Leave vote, oh look a common theme has developed.

But the Brexit party got 25.8% of the vote, just behind the Tories at 28.5%, suggesting the Conservative landslide would have been even greater had Farage given Boris Johnson a clear run in all seats.

It would be nice to hear a voice from the 54%, your post and grrclark's make a lot of sense, but we only hear from NS and Ian what's his face? Blackford? They just spout that Scotland wants Independence.

Googled him to check his name  snp threat, Blackforf promises to unleash CHAOS if Boris blocks Scots referendum demands??

How? I hope your right about delaying another vote, its obviously not universally wanted.

I'm hoping Boris says get your country in order and then we'll talk, stop shouting for Independence stop blaming London and make Scotland great again. 

Also everyone in England gets sick of hearing about London,  it might as well be a separate country.

[panoma1]

1 minute ago, Gordon R said:

Perhaps Boris should set a date - 25 years forward from the last one.

We are all UK members. What next - independence for Northern Ireland, Wales, England or even London?

Circumstances might change, but just because the SNP won many seats, it doesn't give them the right to overrule the whole of the UK.

Good point Gordon! The London boroughs, if taken in isolation, voted to remain in the EU! Should they have the right to remain in the EU while the rest of the UK leave!......because that is exactly the argument the SNP are using, as the reason Scotland should hold a new independence vote!