Independence for Scotland

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Marvelous!

[AULD YIN]

  

Edited December 17, 2019 by AULD YIN

[TIGHTCHOKE]

If one looks at the Scottish situation objectively,  staying within the United Kingdom would be far more attractive than leaving and trying to join the European Union  in order to get some financial support.

[oowee]

12 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

If one looks at the Scottish situation objectively,  staying within the United Kingdom would be far more attractive than leaving and trying to join the European Union  in order to get some financial support.

I can hear the sound of the Brexit pipes all over again. It's not about the money 

[Walker570]

On 14/12/2019 at 10:47, grrclark said:

Perhaps a controversial statement for some of the southern contributors on this thread I believe Scotland could do perfectly well if it seceded from the UK, however it would require a significant period of adjustment and a fundamental change to our current economic model.  This adjustment would be painful for a generation or two.

Scotland is much like the rest of the UK in that it is blessed with some fantastic talent and capabilities and necessity would drive change and innovation.  We are not just about whisky and oil, Scotland is at the forefront of a huge amount of innovation in ultra high tech, pharmacology, life sciences, creative digital, engineering, agri-tech, software development, renewables and financial services.  What we don't have enough of is self sustaining manufacture and we have far too much of an imbalance towards public sector employment.

The major barrier to a successful independent Scotland just now is the national narrative where people talk of fairness, rights and equalities which when you really examine what that noble language means, in this context, is a sense of entitlement by far too many.  That language has been used by the SNP to bring who were the traditional Labour voters on board and increase vote share, but the language is wrong if genuinely wanting the country to secede and succeed.  It would need to be language of entrepreneurialism, of hard work and endeavour, shorter term concessions for longer term gains, etc, but much like a lot of the Brexit language it is short term gain and getting something for nothing, all of which is bogus in both cases.

Brexit will also take a period of adjustment for the UK and that is also going to be painful for many people for a while, but just like Scotland I have a huge amount of faith in our ability as a nation (albeit little faith in much of our current political leaders) to capitalise on the opportunities that will present and again necessity will drive innovation and invention.

Scotland would do perfectly well, in time, but would have to once again learn to be hungry and lean, embrace free market capitalism and not apologise for it, to be bold and not promote policy of appeasement, but of ambition and competitiveness.  Exactly like Great Britain is going to have to do and do it quickly.

Less the Barnett Formula.  I assume you will not want the present back handers from Westminster then.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

41 minutes ago, oowee said:

I can hear the sound of the Brexit pipes all over again. It's not about the money 

So then, how will an independent Scotland survive?

[johnphilip]

34 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

So then, how will an independent Scotland survive?

To them , the SNP . It's about power , and not liking the English , or been ruled by them , I believe.  I hate everything they stand for . Also the way they are deviding  the country as others have said . I moved here to Southwest Scotland  15 years ago . Before that I have come to Scotland every year . Since I past my driving test in 1971 . I love it here . The people are amazing . One of the first things I noticed was the people in the shops gave you the time of day . They did not want your money , and have you gone .

I rent my cottage of a farmer , and his wife says , oh here's  our john coming The thought of independence  , does scare me to be honest , I feel I am to old now to move away .

I hope Borris , is hard on them , they way they treat him when he was pushing for Brexit . 

How this will all fan out , I have no idea , 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Well the original independence was accepted as a "ONCE IN A GENERATION" vote. I accept life expectancy north of the border is considerably shorter, but this is extreme.

I too love provincial Scotland and its people.

[wymberley]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

 It's not about the money 

The only time it isn't is when you have more than you know what to do with.

[wymberley]

20 hours ago, oowee said:

This sums it up for me. 

I have been fortunate to travel much of the world and my favorite place of all is Scotland. Every year for 20 years kayaking the rivers staying at Loch Awe in the West and Strathdon in the East. The rivers Orchy, Spean, Feshie, Findhorn, are truly magical. My uncle living in Dalbeattie in Ayreshire where where I stayed for many summers. Watching the rugby in the Tight lines pub at Loch Awe and in Tomintoul. Sailing the islands around the west coast from Oban. Its a fabulous place and its population welcoming and international. It is for me as much if not more a part of the UK as any of the nations. I don't care which way the funds flow we are so much more together why some are so keen to erect artificial barriers and hurdles between  people of one nation are beyond me.

I can relate to this as I thoroughly enjoyed my time up there and have been back several times. As you're just up the road, you'll understand the expression, but to a degree I think you're looking at things through the eyes of a grockle. The places that you mention were/are distinctly "touristy" so how well paid are the locals, is the work seasonal, etc, etc? It's not so different to down here and particularly further west.

[Bigbob]

So it would seem that we the Scottish people will be deemed to be getting another once in a lifetime vote ?. And it that doesnt get the SNP wishes dare i suggest another one and yet another one till they get the result they want 

Its smacks of the playground bully to me its my ball and your no getting to play 

But how much do these Independence elections   cost £3/5 million  money that could be used better off in Scotland the health service etc as they are repeatedly not hitting time targets

But its just tax payers money so why would that matter the amount the SNP squander after all we voted them in ?. 

[Gordon R]

I have visited Scotland many, many times on business and on holiday. The rhetoric that comes out of the SNP bears no resemblance to the friends I have or the people I have met. Sharp minds, good sense of humour, friendly and hospitable.

Whilst I accept that the SNP are the dominant party - at the moment - I genuinely hope that they do not reflect the views of the whole of Scotland.

[Thunderbird]

3 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

So then, how will an independent Scotland survive?

I would genuinely like to know the practical answer to this. If an independent Scotland wouldn't qualify to join the EU, what then? Indeed, will the EU be the power it now is once we (and maybe others, who knows?) are gone? 

[Mice!]

2 hours ago, Bigbob said:

So it would seem that we the Scottish people will be deemed to be getting another once in a lifetime vote ?. And it that doesnt get the SNP wishes dare i suggest another one and yet another one till they get the result they want 

Its smacks of the playground bully to me its my ball and your no getting to play 

But how much do these Independence elections   cost £3/5 million  money that could be used better off in Scotland the health service etc as they are repeatedly not hitting time targets

But its just tax payers money so why would that matter the amount the SNP squander after all we voted them in ?. 

I hope there are lots of others who think like you.

[tonker]

49 minutes ago, Thunderbird said:

I would genuinely like to know the practical answer to this. If an independent Scotland wouldn't qualify to join the EU, what then? Indeed, will the EU be the power it now is once we (and maybe others, who knows?) are gone? 

And that in a nutshell is why I started this thread. I can't see where their capital is going to come from if none from the EU, and none from Westminster. Have they really done their financial homework? Perhaps they got the Abbot to do it🥴

[TIGHTCHOKE]

3 minutes ago, tonker said:

And that in a nutshell is why I started this thread. I can't see where their capital is going to come from if none from the EU, and none from Westminster. Have they really done their financial homework? Perhaps they got the Abbot to do it🥴

Perhaps that is where she was during the General Election campaign, thought she had been locked in a cupboard.

[Rewulf]

In other news, police are investigating a 'disgusting ' race hate crime in Perth.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-50821872?fbclid=IwAR0alAMaoXY5SpqB7joXiMfB_kxRaRvKnikbMqVTWj9VMqKfNf7xtONcjjc

"It's sickening and disgusting to know that people think like this."

[WestonSalop]

5 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

In other news, police are investigating a 'disgusting ' race hate crime in Perth.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-50821872?fbclid=IwAR0alAMaoXY5SpqB7joXiMfB_kxRaRvKnikbMqVTWj9VMqKfNf7xtONcjjc

"It's sickening and disgusting to know that people think like this."

I was having an OK day until I saw this and especially the BBC report. So its NOT all right to be white then? I'm bloody livid.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Blimey!

[grrclark]

5 hours ago, Walker570 said:

Less the Barnett Formula.  I assume you will not want the present back handers from Westminster then.

Did you not read my post? Especially the bit about how it would mean a fundamental change to our current economic model.

If you understand Barnett and how central government funds are distributed then you will appreciate that every single region of the UK, except London, benefits from Westminster “back handers”

Yes Scotland, per capita, benefits from a slightly higher spend than England and there is good reason for that within Barnett.

 

[Mice!]

3 minutes ago, grrclark said:

Did you not read my post? Especially the bit about how it would mean a fundamental change to our current economic model.

If you understand Barnett and how central government funds are distributed then you will appreciate that every single region of the UK, except London, benefits from Westminster “back handers”

Yes Scotland, per capita, benefits from a slightly higher spend than England and there is good reason for that within Barnett.

 

So what is the good reason?

I'm expecting lots of back handers for the Midlands and the North as thank yous for the votes.

And I cant see the general population in Scotland ever being hungry and lean enough to except going without, that somehow reads wrong but I'm sure you know what I mean.

[tonker]

15 minutes ago, grrclark said:

Did you not read my post? Especially the bit about how it would mean a fundamental change to our current economic model.

If you understand Barnett and how central government funds are distributed then you will appreciate that every single region of the UK, except London, benefits from Westminster “back handers”

Yes Scotland, per capita, benefits from a slightly higher spend than England and there is good reason for that within Barnett.

 

I was told by my mate from Mull, that the  your slightly higher spend per each man woman and child in Scotland is £1500. Is this not correct? that adds up to a goodish bit.

Edited December 17, 2019 by tonker

[grrclark]

Just now, Mice! said:

So what is the good reason?

I'm expecting lots of back handers for the Midlands and the North as thank yous for the votes.

And I cant see the general population in Scotland ever being hungry and lean enough to except going without, that somehow reads wrong but I'm sure you know what I mean.

The good reason is simple geography and low population density spread across a relatively large land mass with a limited transport infrastructure in the remoter places, think highlands and islands.  Quite simply it costs more to deliver services into those places and that is all there is to it.

The midlands and especially the north should indeed see lots of infrastructure spending and it is needed too.

Your last point is why the narrative promoted by the SNP to try and garner enough vote share was skewed towards getting something for nothing, if they had promoted the reality they would not get anything like close to the vote share they have now.

Post Brexit Britain is going to have to learn that very same lesson now, there is not free money coming from a dividend of no EU contributions, Britain will succeed but it’s going to have to work very hard to get there and that is going to be a culture shock for everyone.

 

[Rewulf]

2 minutes ago, grrclark said:

and that is going to be a culture shock for everyone.

A much needed one ...

[Gordon R]

Quote

Post Brexit Britain is going to have to learn that very same lesson now, there is not free money coming from a dividend of no EU contributions, Britain will succeed but it’s going to have to work very hard to get there and that is going to be a culture shock for everyone.

The difference between the UK and Scotland is that the UK is / soon to be was - a net contributor to the EU. Whereas Scotland is a net beneficiary from the UK. I accept London subsidises the rest of the UK, as well as Scotland.

I just don't see where the replacement funds, brought about by the lack of Barnett subsidy, are coming from. It won't be the EU, as Scotland can't enter the EU, despite what the SNP claim.