Lead ban & BASC

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Just now, markm said:

Tell you what I’d like to see. 
 

BASC (+all others) & Cartridge boss’ (particularly lylevale and gamebore) get together and have an online debate so we can all decide who’s telling ‘porkies’ 

Can’t be that hard to do? 

Good luck with that wish!

 

Have you ever tried to herd cats?

[clangerman]

1 minute ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Good luck with that wish!

 

Have you ever tried to herd cats?

no chance of that david’s reply to me just now he says basc did not lie so he’s obviously calling the cartridge makers liars 

[Newbie to this]

12 minutes ago, David BASC said:

keep sticking to this false fact

I'm confused.

Is it false?

Or

Is it fact?

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Whatever your viewpoint it must be accepted that the whole damned thing could have been done far better!

[clangerman]

6 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

I'm confused.

Is it false?

Or

Is it fact?

ask basc and the cartridge makers one of them IS lying and that takes us for mugs 

[lancer425]

9 minutes ago, clangerman said:

no chance of that david’s reply to me just now he says basc did not lie so he’s obviously calling the cartridge makers liars 

What if BASC talked to importers who knew what their overseas manufacturing base were already on this and it all could happen.

Why are we limiting this to the UK factories. ? What about fiochi Mirage Joker RC B&P. WINCHESTER what about them, or FEDERAL. we are opening up new trade deals now. The states are a real prospect.

[Smokersmith]

1 hour ago, David BASC said:

No envelopes under doors , but as I said, if you look at what's been going on re lead in Europe over the last few years, it will come as no surprise! But add to that the pressure for food sellers to remove heavy metals etc from foods, again that's been on the agenda for ages...and lets not forget single use plastics and the bad PR that have had...

I think it would greatly help to add some facts about the overall picture on lead in Europe. I may have missed it, and we know about Denmark … but if you could share say a map with where lead is and isn't allowed, that would potentially add some badly needed context.

[clangerman]

1 minute ago, lancer425 said:

What if BASC talked to importers who knew what their overseas manufacturing base were already on this and it all could happen.

Why are we limiting this to the UK factories. ? What about fiochi Mirage Joker RC B&P. WINCHESTER what about them, or FEDERAL. we are opening up new trade deals now. The states are a real prospect.

basc clearly said cartridge manufacturers all it takes is one of them to simply say my mistake and we can forget the whole thing but not while one of them won’t  own up 

[Newbie to this]

6 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

What if BASC talked to importers who knew what their overseas manufacturing base were already on this and it all could happen.

Why are we limiting this to the UK factories. ? What about fiochi Mirage Joker RC B&P. WINCHESTER what about them, or FEDERAL. we are opening up new trade deals now. The states are a real prospect.

What about those of us who like to buy British.

And are you suggesting that the biggest UK shooting organisation is purposely excluding UK cartridge manufacturers!

[lancer425]

Just now, clangerman said:

basc clearly said cartridge manufacturers all it takes is one of them to simply say my mistake and we can forget the whole thing but not while one of them won’t  own up 

But why just the UK ?  There are bases here for FIOCHI UK. they are based here make cartridges import them here whats the difference.

 Its all pointless anyway because the Uk makers are looking stupid already. In under a month Jokers in bio will be in the uk, my mate has just got off the phone from the suppliers. He said Joker are looking at 20s next and either 16s or 10ga. I have no reason to doubt my mate i have known him 40 years.

Its already happening now. I think it will be a different again in a few more months. Federal are doing bio and ESTATE> UPLAND GAME its a big thing over in the states. ammo makers have this under way, its just ours here dont want too it appears. .

4 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

What about those of us who like to buy British.

And are you suggesting that the biggest UK shooting organisation is purposely excluding UK cartridge manufacturers!

Buy British fine the uk firms will wake up eventually, but first up is best dressed. Its overseas where the action is has been for some time mow. The afore mentioned RC SIPE ammo its just way in front of Our stuff it must be said.

[wymberley]

19 minutes ago, David BASC said:

Clangerman, if you do not like what I post then simply don't bother reading it!  No one at BASC lied, but I guess you will keep sticking to this false fact because it fits with your argument.

Wymberley ete al, if you do not want to engage in the voluntary schemes endorsed by 9 organisations so be it, if you want to ignore the evidence about the impacts of lead, then so be it.  

Working together to find the best way forward will be the big win for shooting, failing to engage as failing to be open to evolving and changing will put shooting on the back foot - which one would you prefer?

Frankly, that is a bit of a worry. Not for me personally but perhaps the younger "et al". You are polite, even complimentary and ask a fair question and what happens? More often than not such a response is an indication that someone is either losing their temper or the debate or both. Heaven knows, David does take some flack so the former loss would be understandable, but until now has always been his usual unflappable self. I trust therefore that his response is not indicative of losing the debate and that also that the average Joe shooter with his trusty piece out shooting what he can when he can is not going to be the sacrificial lamb in the interests of "a big win for shooting" mainly on behalf of the 'elite' as it is now starting to appear. In a democracy, the duty of the majority is to protect the interests of the minority not ride rough shod over them.

Having said that, I have no doubt that our organisations will stand by their previously held view that - albeit now with the exception of game shot for the food chain -  in the absence of any other unproven scientific need for change -  they will continue to present the case for lead under certain conditions - unless of course there is a dramatic change in the science and a move to a blanket ban is deemed essential in which case they won't make the same mistake again and in view of the severity of the action, keep their members informed.

[rbrowning2]

Lancer425, if nothing else I admire your optimism and hope it all works out as you say.

but do consider the UK market is tiny compared to the USA, when their was a shortage of .22lr ammo a few years back in the UK all that was being made in the USA was being sold in the USA with manufactures reportedly saying why bother to go the trouble to export when we can sell it all at home. We have exited the EU which again may make importing more challenging from next year especially for dangerous goods.

But I will sit back and watch with interest how this all plays out over the next five years and will continue to use lead with fibre wads until such time as the government ban it or a suitable affordable non toxic biodegradable wad cartridge arrived in the shops.

the only knee jerk decision I see, has been the one made by the nine shooting organisations to save commercial game shooting.

David basc please publish the minutes from the meetings you had with the uk cartridge manufactures prior to the announcement and what forward notice did you give your trade members? Answer none.

 

[lancer425]

3 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Frankly, that is a bit of a worry. Not for me personally but perhaps the younger "et al". You are polite, even complimentary and ask a fair question and what happens? More often than not such a response is an indication that someone is either losing their temper or the debate or both. Heaven knows, David does take some flack so the former loss would be understandable, but until now has always been his usual unflappable self. I trust therefore that his response is not indicative of losing the debate and that also that the average Joe shooter with his trusty piece out shooting what he can when he can is not going to be the sacrificial lamb in the interests of "a big win for shooting" mainly on behalf of the 'elite' as it is now starting to appear. In a democracy, the duty of the majority is to protect the interests of the minority not ride rough shod over them.

Having said that, I have no doubt that our organisations will stand by their previously held view that - albeit now with the exception of game shot for the food chain -  in the absence of any other unproven scientific need for change -  they will continue to present the case for lead under certain conditions - unless of course there is a dramatic change in the science and a move to a blanket ban is deemed essential in which case they won't make the same mistake again and in view of the severity of the action, keep their members informed.

 

9 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Lancer425, if nothing else I admire your optimism and hope it all works out as you say.

but do consider the UK market is tiny compared to the USA, when their was a shortage of .22lr ammo a few years back in the UK all that was being made in the USA was being sold in the USA with manufactures reportedly saying why bother to go the trouble to export when we can sell it all at home. We have exited the EU which again may make importing more challenging from next year especially for dangerous goods.

But I will sit back and watch with interest how this all plays out over the next five years and will continue to use lead with fibre wads until such time as the government ban it or a suitable affordable non toxic biodegradable wad cartridge arrived in the shops.

the only knee jerk decision I see, has been the one made by the nine shooting organisations to save commercial game shooting.

David basc please publish the minutes from the meetings you had with the uk cartridge manufactures prior to the announcement and what forward notice did you give your trade members? Answer none.

 

No you got the .22LR bit "USA well wrong, reason they gor scares here was because the USA had OBAMA and were scared he was going to do something stupid with the gun/ ammo laws. The survivalist prepper thing over there. its breed into them, went into stock piling mode we are just vdoing it now this very moment only we need rooms full of toilet paper to live past CORONA VIRUS.

Twaz just that nothing more.

And whats all this UK CARTRIODGE MAKERS STUFF. ? We know they dont want to play ball come out with a load of old carp, could it just be the ORGS knew this and approached cartridge firms/ etc they knew were producing options and forward thinking.  By late spring THERE WILL BE BIO AMMO IN THE SHOPS> By the start of the season i am sure there will be more than a few option available in a variety of types from different manufacturers. And i imagine some of those could be British.

[David BASC]

My point is Wymberley, although I probably did not make it well, is that if people want to ignore what's going on and the fact that the environment we operate in, there is little I can do about it.

Does anyone honestly think that no one actively involved in shooting as a business, cartridge suppliers, firearm suppliers, other ammunition suppliers etc did not see the issues  re lead, single use plastics etc over the last several years?  Do you think everyone was totally ignorant of wats going on, but  was waiting for BASC or another organisation that they affiliate with to let them know? Has no one been reading what's been published by the originations over the years as especially the last 12 months?

We are in a changing environment, we change / evolve if we want to thrive.  I remember the same angst when lead was banned from fishing, I remember the same concerns when lead was banned from wildfowling, this time we have an opportunity to be on the front foot and work together and not sit back and wait for a ban! We have the opportunity to prove we care about the environment, that we are truly custodians of the countryside, lets take it!

[clangerman]

there’s nothing wrong with asking people to switch for steel but there’s everything wrong when people asking them to switch so they can make a few filthy pound notes 

[Penelope]

10 minutes ago, David BASC said:

My point is Wymberley, although I probably did not make it well, is that if people want to ignore what's going on and the fact that the environment we operate in, there is little I can do about it.

Does anyone honestly think that no one actively involved in shooting as a business, cartridge suppliers, firearm suppliers, other ammunition suppliers etc did not see the issues  re lead, single use plastics etc over the last several years?  Do you think everyone was totally ignorant of wats going on, but  was waiting for BASC or another organisation that they affiliate with to let them know? Has no one been reading what's been published by the originations over the years as especially the last 12 months?

We are in a changing environment, we change / evolve if we want to thrive.  I remember the same angst when lead was banned from fishing, I remember the same concerns when lead was banned from wildfowling, this time we have an opportunity to be on the front foot and work together and not sit back and wait for a ban! We have the opportunity to prove we care about the environment, that we are truly custodians of the countryside, lets take it!

David, direct question. Who is being very, very economical with the truth, The 9 or the manufacturers?

A simple answer, please, them or us (BASC, et al).

[andrewluke]

2 hours ago, Farmboy91 said:

I don't think any of us lot will know the actual ins and outs of what went on. 

As was said further back in the thread, if the EU decide they aren't going to be buying game from the UK, BASC and the other orgs have created a rather large mountain from a particularly small mole hill. 

Yes 100% get rid of single use plastic's, as for lead id imagine a large proportion of the game sold is to those who couldn't care less if it had been shot with lead because in reality its not something to worry about 🥱.

If a shoot wants to supple Waitrose for example and they insist on non toxic then by all means do so. 

We've all be stuck on one sinking ship and life raft places look pretty expensive to me.

ask lancer425 as he seems to know the ins & outs of BASC and the cartridge companies,i think he's an undercover agent

[8 shot]

11 minutes ago, David BASC said:

 

 

12 minutes ago, David BASC said:

My point is Wymberley, although I probably did not make it well, is that if people want to ignore what's going on and the fact that the environment we operate in, there is little I can do about it.

Does anyone honestly think that no one actively involved in shooting as a business, cartridge suppliers, firearm suppliers, other ammunition suppliers etc did not see the issues  re lead, single use plastics etc over the last several years?  Do you think everyone was totally ignorant of wats going on, but  was waiting for BASC or another organisation that they affiliate with to let them know? Has no one been reading what's been published by the originations over the years as especially the last 12 months?

We are in a changing environment, we change / evolve if we want to thrive.  I remember the same angst when lead was banned from fishing, I remember the same concerns when lead was banned from wildfowling, this time we have an opportunity to be on the front foot and work together and not sit back and wait for a ban! We have the opportunity to prove we care about the environment, that we are truly custodians of the countryside, lets take it!

It will cost me in excess of £2700 to convert my guns for steel just to  hold there value which is not to be sniffed at. My only steel proof gun is a semi auto, not suitable really for game shooting 

[wymberley]

11 minutes ago, David BASC said:

My point is Wymberley, although I probably did not make it well, is that if people want to ignore what's going on and the fact that the environment we operate in, there is little I can do about it.

Does anyone honestly think that no one actively involved in shooting as a business, cartridge suppliers, firearm suppliers, other ammunition suppliers etc did not see the issues  re lead, single use plastics etc over the last several years?  Do you think everyone was totally ignorant of wats going on, but  was waiting for BASC or another organisation that they affiliate with to let them know? Has no one been reading what's been published by the originations over the years as especially the last 12 months?

We are in a changing environment, we change / evolve if we want to thrive.  I remember the same angst when lead was banned from fishing, I remember the same concerns when lead was banned from wildfowling, this time we have an opportunity to be on the front foot and work together and not sit back and wait for a ban! We have the opportunity to prove we care about the environment, that we are truly custodians of the countryside, lets take it!

In all of this, David, the nine are missing the point. Yes, people will moan, that's what we do. They have no wish to ignore anything that will affect them and when they can see that something makes sense they'll still moan but will accept it and get on with it.

What will make them downright angry though has nothing to do with the actual topic itself, but the fact that in something so momentous as this is not only not to be consulted beforehand but even more so is that the about turn regarding the ongoing use of lead was totally unexpected. I don't mean  that we didn't know it was eventually going to come to a greater or lesser degree, but the announcement was completely out of the blue and the content contradicted everything that the associations had been telling us was their opinions on the matter. This was then compounded by making it a total (albeit voluntary) ban. To me and I suspect many others, this is indicative that the associations when the time comes will make no representations that in certain circumstances the use of lead could continue.

So what can be done to keep your people on side is to keep them informed - not for each small step as that's what the association councils are for, but just for the giant leaps of mankind.

The one positive - if not ideal - thing to come out of this is that when the time comes we now know that with the agreement of the associations the use of lead shot will be prohibited across the board.

I will allow myself a little sneaky smirk that for once I've timed it right - I'm usually the one moving in when the money is moving out.

[rbrowning2]

58 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

 

No you got the .22LR bit "USA well wrong, reason they gor scares here was because the USA had OBAMA and were scared he was going to do something stupid with the gun/ ammo laws. The survivalist prepper thing over there. its breed into them, went into stock piling mode we are just vdoing it now this very moment only we need rooms full of toilet paper to live past CORONA VIRUS.

Twaz just that nothing more.

And whats all this UK CARTRIODGE MAKERS STUFF. ? We know they dont want to play ball come out with a load of old carp, could it just be the ORGS knew this and approached cartridge firms/ etc they knew were producing options and forward thinking.  By late spring THERE WILL BE BIO AMMO IN THE SHOPS> By the start of the season i am sure there will be more than a few option available in a variety of types from different manufacturers. And i imagine some of those could be British.

I never said what the cause of the .22lr ammo was just the consequence of it, that they did not need to export when they could sell all they could make much quicker and easily at home.

[wymberley]

1 hour ago, 8 shot said:

 

It will cost me in excess of £2700 to convert my guns for steel just to  hold there value which is not to be sniffed at. My only steel proof gun is a semi auto, not suitable really for game shooting 

It will be. They'll be de rigueur. How else are the number of birds which are going to be needed by the supermarkets going to be shot?

[rbrowning2]

1 hour ago, lancer425 said:

 

No you got the .22LR bit "USA well wrong, reason they gor scares here was because the USA had OBAMA and were scared he was going to do something stupid with the gun/ ammo laws. The survivalist prepper thing over there. its breed into them, went into stock piling mode we are just vdoing it now this very moment only we need rooms full of toilet paper to live past CORONA VIRUS.

Twaz just that nothing more.

And whats all this UK CARTRIODGE MAKERS STUFF. ? We know they dont want to play ball come out with a load of old carp, could it just be the ORGS knew this and approached cartridge firms/ etc they knew were producing options and forward thinking.  By late spring THERE WILL BE BIO AMMO IN THE SHOPS> By the start of the season i am sure there will be more than a few option available in a variety of types from different manufacturers. And i imagine some of those could be British.

I never said what the cause of the .22lr ammo was just the consequence of it, that they did not need to export when they could sell all they could make much quicker and easily at home.

[rbrowning2]

55 minutes ago, David BASC said:

My point is Wymberley, although I probably did not make it well, is that if people want to ignore what's going on and the fact that the environment we operate in, there is little I can do about it.

Does anyone honestly think that no one actively involved in shooting as a business, cartridge suppliers, firearm suppliers, other ammunition suppliers etc did not see the issues  re lead, single use plastics etc over the last several years?  Do you think everyone was totally ignorant of wats going on, but  was waiting for BASC or another organisation that they affiliate with to let them know? Has no one been reading what's been published by the originations over the years as especially the last 12 months?

We are in a changing environment, we change / evolve if we want to thrive.  I remember the same angst when lead was banned from fishing, I remember the same concerns when lead was banned from wildfowling, this time we have an opportunity to be on the front foot and work together and not sit back and wait for a ban! We have the opportunity to prove we care about the environment, that we are truly custodians of the countryside, lets take it!

David it was much simpler for the fishing industry, you just attach a tiny weight to the line, your family heirloom or much loved fishing rod was still able to be used and did not become potentially a wall hanger and whilst the weights may have doubled in price is was still only a few pounds not a few hundreds of pounds, not all of us earn basc salaries.

You have made a massive u turn without consulting anybody especially the trade if you have then publish the minutes of the meeting and the contents of the emails you sent to the trade prior to the announcement, how hard can that be?

 

Edited March 9, 2020 by rbrowning2

[Old farrier]

45 minutes ago, David BASC said:

My point is Wymberley, although I probably did not make it well, is that if people want to ignore what's going on and the fact that the environment we operate in, there is little I can do about it.

Does anyone honestly think that no one actively involved in shooting as a business, cartridge suppliers, firearm suppliers, other ammunition suppliers etc did not see the issues  re lead, single use plastics etc over the last several years?  Do you think everyone was totally ignorant of wats going on, but  was waiting for BASC or another organisation that they affiliate with to let them know? Has no one been reading what's been published by the originations over the years as especially the last 12 months?

We are in a changing environment, we change / evolve if we want to thrive.  I remember the same angst when lead was banned from fishing, I remember the same concerns when lead was banned from wildfowling, this time we have an opportunity to be on the front foot and work together and not sit back and wait for a ban! We have the opportunity to prove we care about the environment, that we are truly custodians of the countryside, lets take it!

Thank you for your input 

im well aware of the problem with lead and single use plastic 

I fully intend to go with the voluntary ban through the transition period for my game shooting 

however for myself and others the cartridge choices are limited and or non existent could you please try to explain the way I and others can both comply with the voluntary ban  and continue shooting games with our English game guns and smaller bores 

I have along with others no real interest in shooting partridge with a heavy wildfowl gun or load 

I look forward to your reply 

[JohnfromUK]

6 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

im well aware of the problem with lead and single use plastic 

I fully intend to go with the voluntary ban through the transition period for my game shooting 

however for myself and others the cartridge choices are limited and or non existent could you please try to explain the way I and others can both comply with the voluntary ban  and continue shooting games with our English game guns and smaller bores 

I have along with others no real interest in shooting partridge with a heavy wildfowl gun or load 

I fully intend to go with the voluntary ban through the transition period for my game shooting - So do I subject to the availability of a suitable cartridge to suit 2 1/2" chambers (12 bore).

however for myself and others the cartridge choices are limited and or non existent could you please try to explain the way I and others can both comply with the voluntary ban  and continue shooting games with our English game guns and smaller bores - There are a lot of us in that boat.

I have along with others no real interest in shooting partridge with a heavy wildfowl gun or load -Agreed I do currently own a 'heavy' weight gun but even that is only 2 3/4" and not steel proofed, so is quite limited in suitability for steel as currently available and has proved itself unsuited to the shooting I do (too heavy) in part because I have had no use for one, but mainly because a light gun is best suited to what I do and how I do it.