Legality of random stops

[toontastic]

7 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

That's because for the vast majority of the law abiding population, there isn't a problem.

Those that have a problem need to open their eyes and see that not everyone in the community is honest and well intentioned - or they have something that they are worried about 'getting caught' doing.

Several weeks ago (pre lockdown) I was out shooting rats with a few friends, at about 1.30 two of them got stopped pulling out of a storage area about half a mile from the main farm.

The police spotted them, stopped them and asked what they were doing as they didn't recognize their car as one belonging to the farm. They told the officer what they were up to, the officer then phoned the farmer to verify and apologize for calling so late. Farmer was over the moon that the police were operating in the area and under the circumstances I can't see the problem in the police acting how they did 

[Lloyd90]

36 minutes ago, Mice! said:

So if an area is being targeted by burglaries you don't think the police should be stopping cars at random? When people report their quad or dogs have gone during the night then the police in a rural area are highly unlikely to catch them in the act. Same with targeted poaching. 

I used to get stopped on a regular basis working shifts at a pub, or being in areas my old car didn't fit, never more than a quick chat or breathalyser test and away you go.

So what have you been stopped for is the question?,

 

 

I haven't been stopped for anything.

But several colleagues have, whilst out and about, doing work that involved supporting the Police detaining people. 

 

They got stopped whilst on their way to Police stations etc, asking why they were out and about. They weren't best pleased. No reason to stop them, other than to pry into their business. 

24 minutes ago, toontastic said:

As I mentioned earlier there have been a number of police/game keeper/farmer operations. The one in my area was after a spate of thefts of quads, dogs, farm equipment. The keepers/farmers would report unfamiliar vehicles in the area and the police would check them out. I really don't see the problem.

If your dog was stolen and the police found him while doing a random check on a car, would you be grateful or would you just bitch about them abusing their powers.

 

No problem. 

As part of my job when in action I legally have the powers of a Police constable. I'll be round your house whenever I like, I'll be quizzing you what your doing, going through all your stuff and causing you bother. The fact that you have done nothing what so ever to warrant this treatment is totally irrelevant, and don't you dare start bitching about me abusing my power ... if you complain about it you clearly must have something to hide. 

[Lloyd90]

22 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

That's because for the vast majority of the law abiding population, there isn't a problem.

Those that have a problem need to open their eyes and see that not everyone in the community is honest and well intentioned - or they have something that they are worried about 'getting caught' doing.

If the vast majority didn't have an problem with the Police doing whatver they wanted, then the wouldn't have all the rules and regulations that they have would they?!

Instead they have a big amount of rules and regulations, to stop massive abuse of powers and protect you.

 

Perhaps you need to open your own eyes... and see that not everyone in any community (including the Police) is honest and well intentioned. If you think Police should have power to do whatever you've lost your mind. 

[clangerman]

so you can buy hard drugs in every town in the country within mins but it’s ok for the police to be pulling everyone over rather than tackling more important matters seriously? 

[stumfelter]

16 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

 

I haven't been stopped for anything.

But several colleagues have, whilst out and about, doing work that involved supporting the Police detaining people. 

 

They got stopped whilst on their way to Police stations etc, asking why they were out and about. They weren't best pleased. No reason to stop them, other than to pry into their business. 

 

No problem. 

As part of my job when in action I legally have the powers of a Police constable. I'll be round your house whenever I like, I'll be quizzing you what your doing, going through all your stuff and causing you bother. The fact that you have done nothing what so ever to warrant this treatment is totally irrelevant, and don't you dare start bitching about me abusing my power ... if you complain about it you clearly must have something to hide. 

You live in a dream world....

[toontastic]

5 minutes ago, clangerman said:

so you can buy hard drugs in every town in the country within mins but it’s ok for the police to be pulling everyone over rather than tackling more important matters seriously? 

There's been a number of burglaries in your area, you are on holiday. A car with 4 males is parked outside your house at 02.30 the police stop and ask them what they are up to. What's the problem.

[GingerCat]

3 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

They can request to see your driving licence, MOT certificate and insurance certificate. 
 

You don’t have to produce them on the spot and can produce them within 7 days at any Police station. 
 

Legally if your driving you need to carry your licence. The police can give you 7 days to produce it.  The power to stop and request it is 163 of the road traffic act 1988.  

Should you not have it and have been driving they will require you to prove your identity and address suitable for summons  (to issue the producer and incase you don't produce it) This will involve some form of Id.  Not having it or suitable Id (photographic is great, a bank card often suffices but not always) leaves you liable for arrest under suspicion of driving a motor vehicle on a public road without insurance and without a driving licence (the 2 go together, if you have insurance and no licence it's likely obtained - note I said likely and not certainly- by means of deception and that's another offence. 

Because you didn't have it and that's a moving traffic violation they can request a roadside breath test. Failure to provide will result in arrest and charge with likely disqualification regardless of what you blow (if you decide to) at the station. The offence is absolute. 

The corona legislation gives all sorts of powers that a far wider reaching given they are designed to combat a national pandemic, and hence those powers are reviewed every 3 months. 

I've heard a lot of bs about what the police are apparently up too lately a recent conversation was of lots of police turning up and finding lots of people on the spot. Given it would have been my officers and I firstly didn't have that many in totality that day to have accomplished it, that they were 25 miles away with me doing something else, and that people have to be warned twice a day before being fined I was able to dismiss it as the bs it was. 

[clangerman]

1 minute ago, toontastic said:

There's been a number of burglaries in your area, you are on holiday. A car with 4 males is parked outside your house at 02.30 the police stop and ask them what they are up to. What's the problem.

the problem IS they will say NOTHING but their names if arrested it goes NO comment get my brief they stick to not guilty the cps refuse to prosecute because they can’t get a conviction that’s if they even allow the police to charge you anything that’s why the police should stick to serious crime and i’m sure someone who is in the force will confirm that’s how it goes so that’s the PROBLEM 

[toontastic]

20 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

 

As part of my job when in action I legally have the powers of a Police constable. I'll be round your house whenever I like, I'll be quizzing you what your doing, going through all your stuff and causing you bother. The fact that you have done nothing what so ever to warrant this treatment is totally irrelevant, and don't you dare start bitching about me abusing my power ... if you complain about it you clearly must have something to hide. 

Now Now i hope that's not a threat that you are going to abuse your "powers". 

But seriously I'm talking about the police stopping a random car in the middle of the night driving up and down a country lane in an area where there has been a number of crimes and asking what they are up to. I really don't see the problem.

What I do have a problem with is that you compare it to kicking in someones door and trashing the property just because you feel like it. Maybe it would be a good idea if someone like you didn't have police powers.

8 minutes ago, GingerCat said:

Legally if your driving you need to carry your licence. The police can give you 7 days to produce it.  The power to stop and request it is 163 of the road traffic act 1988.  

Should you not have it and have been driving they will require you to prove your identity and address suitable for summons  (to issue the producer and incase you don't produce it) This will involve some form of Id.  Not having it or suitable Id (photographic is great, a bank card often suffices but not always) leaves you liable for arrest under suspicion of driving a motor vehicle on a public road without insurance and without a driving licence (the 2 go together, if you have insurance and no licence it's likely obtained - note I said likely and not certainly- by means of deception and that's another offence. 

Because you didn't have it and that's a moving traffic violation they can request a roadside breath test. Failure to provide will result in arrest and charge with likely disqualification regardless of what you blow (if you decide to) at the station. The offence is absolute. 

The corona legislation gives all sorts of powers that a far wider reaching given they are designed to combat a national pandemic, and hence those powers are reviewed every 3 months. 

I've heard a lot of bs about what the police are apparently up too lately a recent conversation was of lots of police turning up and finding lots of people on the spot. Given it would have been my officers and I firstly didn't have that many in totality that day to have accomplished it, that they were 25 miles away with me doing something else, and that people have to be warned twice a day before being fined I was able to dismiss it as the bs it was. 

Don't quote the law he has police powers.

6 minutes ago, clangerman said:

the problem IS they will say NOTHING but their names if arrested it goes NO comment get my brief they stick to not guilty the cps refuse to prosecute because they can’t get a conviction that’s if they even allow the police to charge you anything that’s why the police should stick to serious crime and i’m sure someone who is in the force will confirm that’s how it goes so that’s the PROBLEM 

But would you want the police to stop and see what they were up to, or just ignore it and drive by.

[Scully]

I’m not a great fan of the police at the best of times, though adult enough to realise they are necessary and have a job to do, and while they do it properly I have no complaints. 
Whilst we’ve been given carte Blanche to travel, I wouldn’t expect to be stopped, but if it’s Fair week and I’m out and about at 1am, then I’d expect to be. 

 

[TRINITY]

45 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

 

 

 

As part of my job when in action I legally have the powers of a Police constable. I'll be round your house whenever I like, I'll be quizzing you what your doing, going through all your stuff and causing you bother. 

That's interesting, are you saying you have the powers of a constable. You seem to be suggesting by the above comment that you can enter a dwelling and search it when ever you feel like it, is that correct ?

[Mice!]

43 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

They got stopped whilst on their way to Police stations etc, asking why they were out and about. They weren't best pleased. No reason to stop them, other than to pry into their business. 

That's it? Did they have the drug dog search the car? Did they make them get out and walk in a straight line then touch their nose? Did they search through the car?

If you had say been stopped every day last week then I could see reason for concern. 

Honestly I can't believe you have posted if that's it.

I travel at some strange hours for work, and I'm more concerned that I've not been stopped and asked where I'm going than I would be for getting stopped.

Which probably means I'll get pulled for speeding next week and end up with my car being searched while I stand in the rain .

He ho 🤷‍♂️

[Lloyd90]

 

17 minutes ago, toontastic said:

Now Now i hope that's not a threat that you are going to abuse your "powers". 

But seriously I'm talking about the police stopping a random car in the middle of the night driving up and down a country lane in an area where there has been a number of crimes and asking what they are up to. I really don't see the problem.

What I do have a problem with is that you compare it to kicking in someones door and trashing the property just because you feel like it. Maybe it would be a good idea if someone like you didn't have police powers.

 

 

It was hypothetical ... were you unable to get that point?  

Your example of a car in the middle of the night, driving repeatedly up and down  a lane, where there are number of crimes ... would very clearly give the Police good cause to stop and see what they are up to. 

The issue I raised, was with Police stopping any vehicle at any time to see what they are up to ... just because they felt like it. You seem to have an issue with someone searching a property just because they feel like it (in my hypothetical example), but not with them pulling you over and searching your car and questioning you for no other reason that they felt like it ... Do you have a problem with it or not? You seem to have confused yourself. 

 

[JohnfromUK]

42 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

If you think Police should have power to do whatever you've lost your mind. 

No, I've not lost my mind, and actually as has been pointed out - they already do have the powers to stop and ask.

I have no problem at all with being stopped and asked, but would expect there to be 'reasonable reasons' and also it to occur infrequently.  As far as I can remember I have been stopped 3 times in about 40 years.

[Lloyd90]

2 minutes ago, Mice! said:

That's it? Did they have the drug dog search the car? Did they make them get out and walk in a straight line then touch their nose? Did they search through the car?

If you had say been stopped every day last week then I could see reason for concern. 

Honestly I can't believe you have posted if that's it.

I travel at some strange hours for work, and I'm more concerned that I've not been stopped and asked where I'm going than I would be for getting stopped.

Which probably means I'll get pulled for speeding next week and end up with my car being searched while I stand in the rain .

He ho 🤷‍♂️

It's bigger than that one example ... can't you see that? 

They one person was stopped for no other reason than they felt like it, how many other cars were out there doing the same? How many other people did the Police stop and question with no reason to do so that day? or week? or the past 6+ weeks? 

3 minutes ago, TRINITY said:

That's interesting, are you saying you have the powers of a constable. You seem to be suggesting by the above comment that you can enter a dwelling and search it when ever you feel like it, is that correct ?

Can you not see the fact I was joking to make a point? 🙄

3 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

No, I've not lost my mind, and actually as has been pointed out - they already do have the powers to stop and ask.

I have no problem at all with being stopped and asked, but would expect there to be 'reasonable reasons' and also it to occur infrequently.  As far as I can remember I have been stopped 3 times in about 40 years.

Fair enough, as I am saying there should be reasonable reason. Not just they decided to pull you over just because they (think they) can. 

 

[Mice!]

4 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

It's bigger than that one example ... can't you see that? 

They one person was stopped for no other reason than they felt like it, how many other cars were out there doing the same? How many other people did the Police stop and question with no reason to do so that day? or week? or the past 6+ weeks? 

How can I see what you haven't explained?

Watch the news, over in Ireland/ northern Ireland not sure which, the police were stood in the road stopping every car, asking where they are going.

Have you heard of county lines drug pushers? 

So the police during a national crisis and with travel restrictions in place have been stopping people and asking where they are going, yes? I suggest you write a stern letter complaining that the police are doing what they get paid for. 

And everyone said they were going to Tesco. 

[Lloyd90]

3 minutes ago, Mice! said:

How can I see what you haven't explained?

Watch the news, over in Ireland/ northern Ireland not sure which, the police were stood in the road stopping every car, asking where they are going.

Have you heard of county lines drug pushers? 

So the police during a national crisis and with travel restrictions in place have been stopping people and asking where they are going, yes? I suggest you write a stern letter complaining that the police are doing what they get paid for. 

And everyone said they were going to Tesco. 

 

Apologises, I (wrongly) assumed you would be able to see that it's not just a one off and something happening across the board. 

 

Oh, it's a slippery slope. 

Say goodbye to your freedoms for once they are gone, you will never get them back. 

[enfieldspares]

6 hours ago, toontastic said:

Thank you, I know loads of travellers who find it quite annoying when they get stopped for just driving around the countryside. Your support of them being allowed to drive about unhindered at night without police questions and harassment is much appreciated.

Absolutely. For it's the old customary right of any and all to exercise his dog "just for a run about" in any convenient field within fifty miles of where he lives.

[AVB]

I do find that the older I become I get more ‘precious’ about defending our rights. When younger I couldn’t have been bothered if the police stopped cars, asked where people where going and if didn’t like the answer gave them a slap. Now I am like some third rate human rights lawyer. It must be the hormones. 

[Mungler]

It’s not the government you have now you worry about, it’s the government to come.

Once a civil liberty is gone, it never comes back. Drip drip drip and away those civil liberties flow.

[mudpatten]

I do not share many of this blokes ponts of view, however I am deeply concerned about police misuse of powers. I wonder what the next step will be in relation to the private ownership of firearms?

[clangerman]

12 minutes ago, mudpatten said:

I do not share many of this blokes ponts of view, however I am deeply concerned about police misuse of powers. I wonder what the next step will be in relation to the private ownership of firearms?

probably along the lines of private ownership of firearms? what’s that! 

[JohnfromUK]

4 minutes ago, mudpatten said:

I am deeply concerned about police misuse of powers.

I think all should be concerned about misuse of powers.  However, I believe that the power to stop and ask where there are reasonable grounds to suspect and offence has been/is about to be carried out, or topically, the 'lockdown principles' are being disobeyed is currently in place and generally not misused.

For example - if I am pulled over next time I am out going to the supermarket and asked where I am going ........... I would have no problem.  Where we have been told to restrict our movement, I don't have concerns about  the police 'policing' that and checking that I am acting within the lockdown guidance.

However - if after I have told them it is a supermarket visit they then asked to go through my shopping I would be concerned because the guidelines allow supermarket visits - and if I then get told off because I have bought say a bottle of Champagne I would be very concerned because there is no rule that you can only buy 'basic' goods.

Policing government set rules is OK, trying to police made up rules is misuse - and NOT OK

[12gauge82]

6 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

They can request to see your driving licence, MOT certificate and insurance certificate. 
 

You don’t have to produce them on the spot and can produce them within 7 days at any Police station. 
 

They don’t have the right to search you, your property or ask you any number of questions about what your doing or where your going. 
 

 

Using the law of being able to stop and check your driving legally, to question you without cause, just sounds like an abuse of power to me. If I have flagged up as not having insurance on the ANPR then fair enough 🤷‍♂️... 

Yes that's what I said, they can request your driving docs. But if you refused to provide your name ect then you could be liable for arrest.

There'd be nothing to stop them asking where you were going when stopped and if they believed you were braking lock down rules they could fine you.

I'm not saying I agree with that, just saying it as it is.

[Lloyd90]

46 minutes ago, Mungler said:

It’s not the government you have now you worry about, it’s the government to come.

Once a civil liberty is gone, it never comes back. Drip drip drip and away those civil liberties flow.

Much like our gun rights, drip drip drip ... it’s been proven that fun crime didn’t reduce when they banned legally owned Pistols... but we will never ever get them back... once gone they’re gone forever. 

 

Let’s see what happens when this lockdown is over. 
 

As in any job, practices will become routine and normalised. Let’s hope we don’t have Police stopping whenever whenever once this is all over. 
 

Police stopping and questioning people when they have reasonable suspicion that a crime may be committed will obviously always be supported.