Demonstrations in london

[Scully]

29 minutes ago, Nuke said:

If it wasnt it was a very ignorant act.

/Markus

Yes. He got it wrong, and in doing so, one bloke lost his life and another has had his more than likely ruined. 

[12gauge82]

Just now, JohnfromUK said:

Strictly - nothing.  They are smashing London (and other places) up just as other demonstrators/protesters/mob/thugs have done on other issues.  The issue is the excuse to make an attack on a society they see as 'alien to their way of thinking'

 

The UK is tolerant.  British Police, Law and Order and society is very tolerant and not (in my view) fundamentally racist .......... but there will be a few rotten apples and the likes of Tommy Robinson are (again my view) rotten to the core.

There is an equally rotten 'core' behind these demonstrations, or at least the violence and destruction that springs around them, which is there to attack society as a whole.  It is the same basic group of thugs who are in the background at all 'protest' tyoe events like Animal Rights, anti Hunting, anti Capitalist, anti Poll Tax, Extinction Rebellion - and a whole host of other 'pressure groups'.  Many groups are founded by well intentioned but rather unworldly people ....... and infiltrated by those who will use the platform to achieve their aim (which is basically to harm society as we know it and convert it to society as they want it) by violence.

Completely agree, I am certainly not suggesting that racism doesn't exist, just that it's very rare to see it these days. The vast majority of British people couldn't give a darn what colour someone is.

[JohnfromUK]

4 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I am certainly not suggesting that racism doesn't exist, just that it's very rare to see it these days. The vast majority of British people couldn't give a darn what colour someone is.

In fact in some areas, a policy is operated which tries to 'encourage diversity' by selecting candidates for promotion in industry, standing for election, representing people etc. from minorities (black, female, age etc.).  Targets for a 'percentage' of female, ethnic minority etc are set - even to cabinet level possibly?  In fact we have the great Offices of State currently filled by very different ethnic group members in the Chancellor, the Home Secretary, the Foreign Secretary.  We have also had two female Prime Ministers, so we have and have had had a very diverse leadership team for a long time.

I have always maintained that people for positions should be selected on the basis of the best person for the role - and that alone.

[12gauge82]

12 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

In fact in some areas, a policy is operated which tries to 'encourage diversity' by selecting candidates for promotion in industry, standing for election, representing people etc. from minorities (black, female, age etc.).  Targets for a 'percentage' of female, ethnic minority etc are set - even to cabinet level possibly?  In fact we have the great Offices of State currently filled by very different ethnic group members in the Chancellor, the Home Secretary, the Foreign Secretary.  We have also had two female Prime Ministers, so we have and have had had a very diverse leadership team for a long time.

I have always maintained that people for positions should be selected on the basis of the best person for the role - and that alone.

That goes back to my reply a few posts back, so the only discrimination backed by government is actually happening against the majority, i.e white British men. Although that is obviously being conducted by the government and not the minority's themselves. The problem is, the more sensible will (rightly) blame the government, the idiots will blame the minority's the government is trying to advantage, thereby enabling racism to occur, luckily the overwhelming majority of the UK population is very tolerant. It goes back to what I said at the start, the whole situation is ridiculous, small minded people causing issues where there weren't or didn't need to be.

[Raja Clavata]

28 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I genuinely don't get what these people are going mad about, the only discrimination I see these days is called positive discretion where people get jobs over other suitability qualified people simply because they have a protected characteristics, I believe that is wrong and think it is just plain discrimination, nothing positive about it at all and only furthers driving wedges between people and highlighting difference based on colour, sexual orientation, gender ect, but even that's not all that widespread and doesn't really bother me.

Feel free to expand if you want to?

And don't worry, I'm sure we'll find some common ground eventually 😉

Well, I certainly think the race card is often pulled far too early and all too often but personal experience suggests it's very difficult to objectively judge racism unless you are yourself of ethnic minority background or accompanied by somebody that is. Racial discrimination, just like all forms of discriminating behaviour, can be very subtle and covert.

Again, the flip side of that is that often for people of ethnic background there is a tendency to hang pretty much any negative experience as an example of an act of racism. On several occasions I have found myself trying to explain that any such incident may well have been a function of cultural differences (an example being during a meal in a hotel in the UAE). If I ever sense something could be racially motivated I would tend to try to diffuse by suggesting the waiter ask the lady since "she is the Princess and I'm merely her body guard", or something along those lines.

Anyway, just trying to give a slightly different perspective, it's certainly a complex issue and not always easy to properly distinguish...

10 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

It goes back to what I said at the start, the whole situation is ridiculous, small minded people causing issues where there weren't or didn't need to be.

We agree 🙂 I have not even seen any evidence that the death of FG was in any way racially motivated.

[12gauge82]

4 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Well, I certainly think the race card is often pulled far too early and all too often but personal experience suggests it's very difficult to objectively judge racism unless you are yourself of ethnic minority background or accompanied by somebody that is. Racial discrimination, just like all forms of discriminating behaviour, can be very subtle and covert.

Again, the flip side of that is that often for people of ethnic background there is a tendency to hang pretty much any negative experience as an example of an act of racism. On several occasions I have found myself trying to explain that any such incident may well have been a function of cultural differences (an example being during a meal in a hotel in the UAE). If I ever sense something could be racially motivated I would tend to try to diffuse by suggesting the waiter ask the lady since "she is the Princess and I'm merely her body guard", or something along those lines.

Anyway, just trying to give a slightly different perspective, it's certainly a complex issue and not always easy to properly distinguish...

We agree 🙂 I have not even seen any evidence that the death of FG was in any way racially motivated.

I do get it is complex and could be hard to identify, which is why I am against positive discrimination due to the wedge it drives explained in my earlier post.

Glad we found some mutual ground and I would like to add something I hope everyone on here agrees on. Racism should be stamped out whenever and wherever it is uncovered, there should simply be no place for it in a modern forward thinking society.

[Lord v]

I saw an old(ish) video of a black South African comedian doing some stand up. Part of the routine was how he missed the 'top shelf' 'gold standard' racism of SA compared to the so subtle British racism that he often just completely missed. 

That really struck home to me that the racism we are fighting in this country is one of unconscious bias, not the systemic version of the 70's and 80's. Any intolerance and racism in this country is now so subtle and entwined in the psyche that 99.99% of the time its not obvious, even to the person perpetrating it. Of course a society is made up of individuals, so any unconscious bias does eventually become systemic to an extent. It is so tied up in the individual that to counter that kind of racism the change needs to be led by the individual, not the system. 

For example - a march or demonstration to give black people the vote is entirely appropriate to enact an change to the system. This will eventually lead to a change in individual perception to the point where not giving black people the vote seems entirely stupid. 

Where the marches and demonstrations seem so jarring now is that the 'system' is arguably fixed. What now needs to change is the unconscious bias of individuals in society - that is not achieved by standing and shouting in someones face. Protestss aren't just a sledgehammer to crack a walnut - they are a sledgehammer trying to piece together an Ikea wardrobe.  

Just my take on it.  

[Rewulf]

15 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I hope everyone on here agrees on. Racism should be stamped out whenever and wherever it is uncovered, there should simply be no place for it in a modern forward thinking society.

When you have elements within that society , often extremely influential ones, who are hell bent on making sure that THEIR version of 'forward thinking' includes dragging up past digressions / crimes of long dead people, then Im afraid we are on an uphill struggle.
GF s death, as nasty as it it was, has somehow 'triggered' a discussion on slavery, and inequalities ?

A mans death, whilst being arrested committing a crime , has caused many deaths of innocents, and a huge swathe of destruction...and ANGER , not just in those of minorities, but on the other side of the coin, people are disgusted at how monuments and property has been defaced and destroyed.
The media , rather than bringing us together, has used this to create a them and us scenario, for what ?

The common theme here, is attacking the governments of both the USA and UK , for its handling of these events, as attacking them for covid is not hitting the mark.
They need a new stick, and they seized the GF death as that.
The MSN and over here the BBC should most certainly be scrutinised over their impartiality , but I wont hold my breath.

Have a read of this.

https://conservativewoman.co.uk/deluded-bbcs-mission-to-mislead?fbclid=IwAR0qqUNjelhucR7SqCtjr-h7Jxr9Xe4s0ht3jc5E93-IFYpZuexj_wAz2hs

13 minutes ago, Lord v said:

I saw an old(ish) video of a black South African comedian doing some stand up. Part of the routine was how he missed the 'top shelf' 'gold standard' racism of SA compared to the so subtle British racism that he often just completely missed. 

That really struck home to me that the racism we are fighting in this country is one of unconscious bias, not the systemic version of the 70's and 80's. Any intolerance and racism in this country is now so subtle and entwined in the psyche that 99.99% of the time its not obvious, even to the person perpetrating it. Of course a society is made up of individuals, so any unconscious bias does eventually become systemic to an extent. It is so tied up in the individual that to counter that kind of racism the change needs to be led by the individual, not the system. 

For example - a march or demonstration to give black people the vote is entirely appropriate to enact an change to the system. This will eventually lead to a change in individual perception to the point where not giving black people the vote seems entirely stupid. 

Where the marches and demonstrations seem so jarring now is that the 'system' is arguably fixed. What now needs to change is the unconscious bias of individuals in society - that is not achieved by standing and shouting in someones face. Protestss aren't just a sledgehammer to crack a walnut - they are a sledgehammer trying to piece together an Ikea wardrobe.  

Just my take on it.  

Good post .

[Raja Clavata]

25 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I do get it is complex and could be hard to identify, which is why I am against positive discrimination due to the wedge it drives explained in my earlier post.

Glad we found some mutual ground and I would like to add something I hope everyone on here agrees on. Racism should be stamped out whenever and wherever it is uncovered, there should simply be no place for it in a modern forward thinking society.

Again, agreed, we's on a roll, bro 🙂 The trouble is enough people on all (I'll avoid saying both) need to really want to bring about that change.

I'd actually go further and restate the need to eradicate identity politics, the mental situation this has driven the media towards and ideally reverse the demise into the current post truth era where fact is something few seem particularly interested in. Too utopian probably, but we really do need to start somewhere...

12 minutes ago, Lord v said:

I saw an old(ish) video of a black South African comedian doing some stand up. Part of the routine was how he missed the 'top shelf' 'gold standard' racism of SA compared to the so subtle British racism that he often just completely missed. 

That really struck home to me that the racism we are fighting in this country is one of unconscious bias, not the systemic version of the 70's and 80's. Any intolerance and racism in this country is now so subtle and entwined in the psyche that 99.99% of the time its not obvious, even to the person perpetrating it. Of course a society is made up of individuals, so any unconscious bias does eventually become systemic to an extent. It is so tied up in the individual that to counter that kind of racism the change needs to be led by the individual, not the system. 

For example - a march or demonstration to give black people the vote is entirely appropriate to enact an change to the system. This will eventually lead to a change in individual perception to the point where not giving black people the vote seems entirely stupid. 

Where the marches and demonstrations seem so jarring now is that the 'system' is arguably fixed. What now needs to change is the unconscious bias of individuals in society - that is not achieved by standing and shouting in someones face. Protestss aren't just a sledgehammer to crack a walnut - they are a sledgehammer trying to piece together an Ikea wardrobe.  

Just my take on it.  

Well said.

[Gordon R]

 

Quote

personal experience suggests it's very difficult to objectively judge racism unless you are yourself of ethnic minority background or accompanied by somebody that is. Racial discrimination, just like all forms of discriminating behaviour, can be very subtle and covert.

I have been called white trash in Moss Side and had less than friendly welcomes in predominantly Asian areas of Oldham and Blackburn. It was overt and certainly not subtle. I have experienced racism first hand and am not of an ethnic minority background.

I regard racism as ignorance and a lack of intelligence. That said, I believe positive discrimination makes things worse. Right person for the job every time.

Many, many years ago the place where I worked was accused of not employing enough people from ethnic minorities. It came as a surprise, as we seemed to have a fair number - all were excellent at their job and were treated the same - as it should be. To counter the accusation, a swift look at the last couple of intakes of staff revealed a disproportionate number of ethnic minorities. From memory, the nearest  to a white English worker was someone who was half Scottish / half Polish. Despite this, some still believed racism was a factor in recruitment.

If you look hard enough, you will find it, even where it doesn't exist.

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, Gordon R said:

 

I have been called white trash in Moss Side and had less than friendly welcomes in predominantly Asian areas of Oldham and Blackburn. It was overt and certainly not subtle. I have experienced racism first hand and am not of an ethnic minority background.

I regard racism as ignorance and a lack of intelligence. That said, I believe positive discrimination makes things worse. Right person for the job every time.

Many, many years ago the place where I worked was accused of not employing enough people from ethnic minorities. It came as a surprise, as we seemed to have a fair number - all were excellent at their job and were treated the same - as it should be. To counter the accusation, a swift look at the last couple of intakes of staff revealed a disproportionate number of ethnic minorities. From memory, the nearest  to a white English worker was someone who was half Scottish / half Polish. Despite this, some still believed racism was a factor in recruitment.

If you look hard enough, you will find it, even where it doesn't exist.

I think you have it about right. And as I have said, people we'd normally consider of minority ethnic background can be the most racist people I have met / known.

[Lord v]

This was the chap

Is mildly amusing - some bad language - you have been warned. 

[Mice!]

3 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

think there are alot of misguided people out there who simply believe all this racism exists that doesn't. I can honestly say, in all my years, I haven't seen a single example of racism in a normal setting.

What do you class as a normal setting?

If you watch football sections of fans are happy to abuse an opponent's players based on colour despite their own team probably having players from the same country,.

All amateur sport has an amount of racism,  jokes will be made and everyone laughs.

Then you have the complaints that there aren't enough let's say coloured managers in top flight football, it gets brought up every year,  but it's a results based sport, they don't take chances they want results.

And I'm sure there are plenty more examples and cases where this gets taken to the extreme.

I'd have to say if you've never seen any form of racism then you mustn't mix with many races or you travel in much higher circles than I do.

1 hour ago, Gordon R said:

 

I have been called white trash in Moss Side and had less than friendly welcomes in predominantly Asian areas of Oldham and Blackburn. It was overt and certainly not subtle. I have experienced racism first hand and am not of an ethnic minority background.

I regard racism as ignorance and a lack of intelligence. That said, I believe positive discrimination makes things worse. Right person for the job every time.

Many, many years ago the place where I worked was accused of not employing enough people from ethnic minorities. It came as a surprise, as we seemed to have a fair number - all were excellent at their job and were treated the same - as it should be. To counter the accusation, a swift look at the last couple of intakes of staff revealed a disproportionate number of ethnic minorities. From memory, the nearest  to a white English worker was someone who was half Scottish / half Polish. Despite this, some still believed racism was a factor in recruitment.

If you look hard enough, you will find it, even where it doesn't exist.

Spot on. 

 

[ditchman]

they want the statue down of winston churchill now........and no doubt Nelson's column next....what after that.....all white men out of the country.......anyone one conected with slavery in the past must pay compensation.....................thats stuffed me....part of my family used to run slaves and spices out of the west coast of africa....into southern ireland....Ryan was the name

oh dear what a to do and its only tuesday..........

[Scully]

5 minutes ago, ditchman said:

they want the statue down of winston churchill now........and no doubt Nelson's column next....what after that.....all white men out of the country.......anyone one conected with slavery in the past must pay compensation.....................thats stuffed me....part of my family used to run slaves and spices out of the west coast of africa....into southern ireland....Ryan was the name

oh dear what a to do and its only tuesday..........

🙂 Quite. Where do we stop? There’s a huge church in a local village, and visitors have often asked the question ‘why?’ for such a small village. Profits from the opium trade is the answer. What to do? 🧐 

[ditchman]

15 minutes ago, Scully said:

🙂 Quite. Where do we stop? There’s a huge church in a local village, and visitors have often asked the question ‘why?’ for such a small village. Profits from the opium trade is the answer. What to do? 🧐 

and all the head stones in grave yards....will be smashed who had any connection with the slave trade...........i suppose if that is the coarse of events we will have to sue the danish and swedish for all the rape and pillage and enslavement they dealt out to us..................and then the gays people will start on us cause we made their life pure hell for them

 

i tell ee' boi...we are on a hiding to nuttin'................and its still tuesday..

 

oh.....i forgot to mention the feudal system...........what a bind that was

Edited June 9, 2020 by ditchman

[Mice!]

30 minutes ago, ditchman said:

they want the statue down of winston churchill now........and no doubt Nelson's column next....what after that.....all white men out of the country.......anyone one conected with slavery in the past must pay compensation.....................thats stuffed me....part of my family used to run slaves and spices out of the west coast of africa....into southern ireland....Ryan was the name

oh dear what a to do and its only tuesday..........

Nelson's column was on the news this morning because he didn't condemn slavery, absolute madness. 

Street names, buildings the list is endless. 

Someone,  a historian was on around dinner time, saying don't take things down just explain things properly.

I'm just glad Coronavirus has gone now.

[Rewulf]

4 minutes ago, Mice! said:

I'm just glad Coronavirus has gone now.

Coro..? what , is that like the flu ? 

[Retsdon]

6 hours ago, NoBodyImportant said:

He wore police uniform and got her to open the door.

 

Not on the charge sheet he didn't. And there was no mention of sexual assault on the part of any of them either. Or perhaps you know more than the Texas prosecutor?

Edited June 9, 2020 by Retsdon

[Mice!]

31 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Coro..? what , is that like the flu ? 

It was a big deal, but ended in May, now you can join thousands and rampage through the streets in total safety??

[ditchman]

4 minutes ago, Mice! said:

It was a big deal, but ended in May, now you can join thousands and rampage through the streets in total safety??

i so wanted to put in a africain american telephone joke ,...............but i dare'nt..................i will get zapped by zapp..............(it was to do with statues)

[Mice!]

2 minutes ago, ditchman said:

i so wanted to put in a africain american telephone joke ,...............but i dare'nt..................i will get zapped by zapp..............(it was to do with statues)

Yes you had best be on your bestest bestest behaviour 

[Gordon R]

Quote

Not on the charge sheet he didn't. And there was no mention of sexual assault on the part of any of them either. Or perhaps you know more than the Texas prosecutor?

According to the charge sheet, he claimed to be a Water official and was wearing a dark uniform. Whatever he claimed to be, he gained entry by deception. As the poster said that Floyd was not involved in any sexual assault, it wouldn't appear on his charge sheet. Have you got the charge sheets for the rest of the gang?

[old'un]

12 minutes ago, ditchman said:

i so wanted to put in a africain american telephone joke ,...............but i dare'nt..................i will get zapped by zapp..............(it was to do with statues)

You could always send it to Zapp for approval.

[Retsdon]

14 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

he claimed to be a Water official and was wearing a dark uniform

Wrong.

 

14 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

As the poster said that Floyd was not involved in any sexual assault, it wouldn't appear on his charge sheet

It mentions her being struck on the side of the side of the head by one of his accomplices when she screamed for help, so why wouldn't it mention a sexual assault.

But what's your point? My original objection was that NobodyImportant, for whatever reason, asserted that Floyd had held a gun to a pregnant woman while she was being raped. Why he would have asserted that, I don't know. Perhaps he was just badly informed.

Understand that I'm not defending Floyd. I couldn't care tuppence about him. What I'm doing is trying to defend the truth. I can appreciate that it would have been much better for the story if he'd been a serial rapist, but he wasn't. He was someone who - from reading the charges - would appear to have gone with his mates to rob a drug dealers house and got the wrong residence. A pack of clowns - they even left one of themselves behind. 

Edited June 9, 2020 by Retsdon