Demonstrations in london

[NoBodyImportant]

30 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

According to the charge sheet, he claimed to be a Water official and was wearing a dark uniform. Whatever he claimed to be, he gained entry by deception. As the poster said that Floyd was not involved in any sexual assault, it wouldn't appear on his charge sheet. Have you got the charge sheets for the rest of the gang?

You are correct,  I heard  impostering a government official charge on that was dropped on the news and assumed it was a police officer.  But the sexual assault was dropped against him as he wasn’t a direct perpetrator.  That’s how our system works.  The prosecutor charges you on many things and then you plea bargain down to get some of the charges off. 

5 hours ago, Mice! said:

I've no idea how armed robbery can be classed as petty in the first place.

 

That was a different time,  the pregnant woman robbery was a Aggravated Robbery.  Pretty larceny means he stole under $1000 and didn’t threaten anyone.

But again it’s not what you do it’s what you plea bargain down to. 

Edited June 9, 2020 by NoBodyImportant

[Retsdon]

2 minutes ago, NoBodyImportant said:

But the sexual assault was dropped against him as he wasn’t a direct perpetrator.

So how do you know all this if the charge never made it onto court prosecutors documents? And why was battery mentioned in the prosecutors document above, and yet there was no mention of any sexual assault by anyone? Everything else was mentioned. And were any of his accomplices charged with this sexual assault? And if not why not? Surely it's not something that could just be pleaded away?

[mudpatten]

My apologies if this has already been covered.

Slavery is as old as time itself. Many countries built empires on the back of it. Egyptian, Roman, Chinese, Indian, Viking, Islamic, German, American and British to name those empires that come most readily to my mind. Being a victim of slavery was never the exclusive privelidge of black people and more than a few of us white Anglo Saxons were carted off in chains by Viking slavers whose captives ended up spread around the then known world. That it happened some years ago makes it no less wrong.

Slavery was never right and it still goes on covertly, but it was Britain that led the world in it`s suppression and eventual abolition in the early 1800`s and it was once again Britain that led the world with the eventual defeat of slavery in Europe and Japan in 1945.

Our historical track record of confronting and defeating slavery is second to none but the protesters seem to have conveniently fogotten that.

I`d actually fogotten about those past injustices but apparently thats not a good idea if there is the potential for some form of personal advantage if you put your fingers in your ears, scream, stamp your feet and get over emotional about statues.

I`m off to deface and stone the Danish and Swedish embassies in London. "Oi! you **** you owe me compensation!"

 

[Yellow Bear]

27 minutes ago, mudpatten said:

I`m off to deface and stone the Danish and Swedish embassies in London. "Oi! you **** you owe me compensation!"

Don' forget the Italian one as well

[JohnfromUK]

9 minutes ago, mudpatten said:

My apologies if this has already been covered.

........

A good post and makes the point well. 

I would add that removing statues (or for that matter the other 'horrors' like the Nazi camps) does not change history, and indeed can 'distort' history by writing out inconvenient episodes.

[mudpatten]

 

[WalkedUp]

Labour councils are reviewing removal of all statues across its boroughs. Sad day for heritage. 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/labourlist.org/2020/06/labour-councils-pledge-to-review-all-statues-and-commemorations-in-their-areas/%3famp

I favour the addition of an optional bronze plaque to each controversial statue, building or institution with modern criticism and reflection upon the society and system of the time to give context to the slavery that paid for it. Banksy’s idea is also interesting for the Colston statue, but that should not be used to encourage any more vandalism. Removal of the statues is revisionism and hides an issue rather than using it as an opportunity to educate, inform and accept the past. Speaking to gentleman today who is involved in BLM I suggested it would be interesting to see similar plaques in the American or Caribbean plantations, then African ports (explaining the inter tribal nature of the capture of slaves) as a modern day retracing of the slave trade triangle. He would not accept that capture of spaces by fellow Africans had ever happened and thought it an outrageous suggestion. I didn’t have sources to hand, just vague memories from museums many years ago. A quick google confirms my thoughts and makes me worried that some of those so heavily involved in revising history haven’t even bothered to research it in the first place. 

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, WalkedUp said:

some of those so heavily involved in revising history haven’t even bothered to research it in the first place.

Why does that not come as a surprise?

Words like 'bandwagon' , 'jump' and 'on' keep running through my mind.

[WalkedUp]

The debate was impossible, I had to just change subject when disagreement was reached. My wife pointed out that for me (as a white person) the issue is purely academic and I see it with the cold rationalism of someone involved in the protection of our built heritage (architect). For my friend (a black person with young children) it could be a more emotive issue, that directly effects their experience of life and that of his children: how they see their interaction with society etc.  When he got upset we were looking at the issue from completely different perspectives and on completely different grounds so no common understanding was found. I am sure once tempers and some time has passed we will be able to discuss it more successfully. 

Edited June 9, 2020 by WalkedUp

[henry d]

1 hour ago, mudpatten said:

Slavery is as old as time itself.

Very true but also as different then as recently. ANE slavery was so different to anything we know of now, people sold themselves into slavery and were generally well treated, had legislation that was in their favour, and in some cases seen as part of the family, even if a lesser part. They could also be released **if they wanted to** and some even chose not to, a far cry from what we think slavery is.

[12gauge82]

From what I've witnessed of BLM, it's not far from being a terrorist organisation in my personal opinion.

They are causing fear and spreading hate, I feel if it where the looney right they'd be banned.

[WalkedUp]

I do not believe the core ethos of BLM is in any way terrorist. Participants on its marches have behaved criminally and the organisation bares responsibility, but it is not a terrorist organisation.

 

Unfortunately I believe that BLM are like Corbyn, so inept and radically far from the centre ground that they will only alienate those who may otherwise be sympathetic to their cause. Any movement will be in the opposite direction than that intended. More racial division rather than less. More prejudice. More violence. More social and economic oppression. I don’t think I’ve ever been more aware of race and difference than in the last few days, that may be a good thing or it may not. 

[henry d]

On 08/06/2020 at 17:23, NoBodyImportant said:

Well Arbery was killed by neighbors after he was caught breaking into a neighbors house.  He was shot when he attacked the guy who wanted to ask him questions about why he was in his neighbors house

Or gunned down by two vehicle loads of vigilantes, the McMichaels said they pursued the man because he resembled a suspect in a string of local burglaries, although according to the police there had been only one recent car burglary in the neighborhood. He died from 3 gunshot wounds and there were no signs of alcohol or drugs in his body. This was early afternoon, not late at night, or in a situation where it could be difficult to identify a perpetrator. The judicial circuit said that it was justifiable homicide... Let that sink in!

The reason why is "Arbery initiated the fight"; that Travis McMichael "was allowed to use deadly force to protect himself" when "Arbery grabbed the shotgun" or that they chased someone who had been in a house that was under construction in two vehicles, with guns rather than let the police deal with it. Arbery did nothing wrong, he stole nothing, he left of his own accord, but as an unarmed person was forced to defend himself from several armed individuals.

Two months later a video was released of the encounter by a defence attorney, and two days later arrests were made for felony murder and aggravated assault.

Now rather than drone on, go have a look at the fall out regarding the district attorneys and the local PD handling of not just this case but many more.

This is the root of the problem!

[12gauge82]

4 hours ago, Mice! said:

What do you class as a normal setting?

If you watch football sections of fans are happy to abuse an opponent's players based on colour despite their own team probably having players from the same country,.

All amateur sport has an amount of racism,  jokes will be made and everyone laughs.

Then you have the complaints that there aren't enough let's say coloured managers in top flight football, it gets brought up every year,  but it's a results based sport, they don't take chances they want results.

And I'm sure there are plenty more examples and cases where this gets taken to the extreme.

I'd have to say if you've never seen any form of racism then you mustn't mix with many races or you travel in much higher circles than I do.

Spot on. 

 

That depends on what you class as racism. Is a young child in a playground who takes the Mickey out of his ethnic friends physical characteristics and is it any worse than him taking the Mickey out of his ginger or lanky or skinny or fat ect, ect mates. 

I've seen extreme racism visiting prisons, hateful, horrendous, vile words said with real meaning from many different ethnicitys, sometimes said because they have genuine hate, other times because they know it'll get a reaction, it was always taken very seriously by the prisons however.

I don't go to football matches and hate the sport so can't comment there. I follow boxing closely and have never witnessed any incidents there although I'm sure there has been, without doubt in the past.

It's also easy to judge the past by today's standards and if we do that, I suppose virtually every man woman and child was probably racist, but do you think that is fair and should we bother?

For me it comes down to the present and I think you'll find the overwhelming majority of British people would not treat anyone different based on there colour or ethnicity, much less wish harm or hate anyone. I certainly don't believe peoples employment in today's age would be adversely affected due to being from a ethnic minority and in some case it would be an advantage, they also have more protection under the law like others with protected characteristics, there is no one alive today that owns a slave in the UK, or at least not in the sense people used to, why are they holding anyone white accountable, that is a bit racist in itself and is akin to blaming a murderers great grandson for his great grandfathers criminal acts, on the whole, I really don't understand what they're so angry about

[ditchman]

anyone seen the website that lists the statues they will protest and want removed..........including oliver cromwell ....sir francis drake....queen victoria statues...sir robert peel....

this needs to be stopped...and quickly....its gaining dare i say it more and more MOMENTUM.............its close to defacing my country....im not pleased and i dont give a toss what people on here think.........

[Retsdon]

1 hour ago, WalkedUp said:

He would not accept that capture of spaces by fellow Africans had ever happened and thought it an outrageous suggestion.

Tell him to read Mungo Park's book 'Travels To The Interior Districts of Africa'. There's plenty on the slave trade in there. Although to be fair it was probably the  Moors who were the main internal traders where Park travelled. The black Dahomey traders and raiders were further south.

Park's book is an interesting read for anyone actually, and it's downloadable free on Kindle. He was a very remarkable man and he writes well too.

[Yellow Bear]

I suspect this will create exactly what they seek " division", but  by causing an awful lot of angry people I think it will massively back fire on them.

[WalkedUp]

5 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

Tell him to read Mungo Park's book 'Travels To The Interior Districts of Africa'. There's plenty on the slave trade in there. Although to be fair it was probably the  Moors who were the main internal traders where Park travelled. The black Dahomey traders and raiders were further south.

Park's book is an interesting read for anyone actually, and it's downloadable free on Kindle. He was a very remarkable man and he writes well too.

Interesting, will have a look. 

[Gordon R]

Quote

Wrong.

I said he purported to be a Water official, he was in uniform and said he was from the Water Department. Just which bit is wrong? Any chance of the charge sheets for the rest of the gang?

[Retsdon]

1 minute ago, Gordon R said:

I said he purported to be a Water official

It was his oppo. George was driving the car and came in later only after the 'water official' had gained entry. I know, a minor distinction - but a distinction nonetheless. 

Anyway, water board impersonator or not  his death seems to have stirred up an awful lot of cack. I just saw a live stream from New York with people just left to run riot, looting and vandalizing. And in Chicago, there are apparently gangs roaming the streets with AK47s and the police nowhere to be seen.

It's a complete shambles and my instinct would be to turn out the military to put a stop to all this nonsense right now.The first duty of a government is to keep order.

[Mice!]

1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said:

That depends on what you class as racism. Is a young child in a playground who takes the Mickey out of his ethnic friends physical characteristics and is it any worse than him taking the Mickey out of his ginger or lanky or skinny or fat ect, ect mates. 

I've seen extreme racism visiting prisons, hateful, horrendous, vile words said with real meaning from many different ethnicitys, sometimes said because they have genuine hate, other times because they know it'll get a reaction, it was always taken very seriously by the prisons however.

I don't go to football matches and hate the sport so can't comment there. I follow boxing closely and have never witnessed any incidents there although I'm sure there has been, without doubt in the past.

It's also easy to judge the past by today's standards and if we do that, I suppose virtually every man woman and child was probably racist, but do you think that is fair and should we bother?

For me it comes down to the present and I think you'll find the overwhelming majority of British people would not treat anyone different based on there colour or ethnicity, much less wish harm or hate anyone. I certainly don't believe peoples employment in today's age would be adversely affected due to being from a ethnic minority and in some case it would be an advantage, they also have more protection under the law like others with protected characteristics, there is no one alive today that owns a slave in the UK, or at least not in the sense people used to, why are they holding anyone white accountable, that is a bit racist in itself and is akin to blaming a murderers great grandson for his great grandfathers criminal acts, on the whole, I really don't understand what they're so angry about

For me racism is hatred, I was sent something by my brother today, a forwarded msg, I'd probably get a slap for posting it,  but it basically says we are Great Britain, and its 2020 not the 1800s so people need to accept that,  this hole being appalled by slavery thing is a joke, it's like they just found out about it??

47 minutes ago, ditchman said:

anyone seen the website that lists the statues they will protest and want removed..........including oliver cromwell ....sir francis drake....queen victoria statues...sir robert peel....

this needs to be stopped...and quickly....its gaining dare i say it more and more MOMENTUM.............its close to defacing my country....im not pleased and i dont give a toss what people on here think.........

Haven't seen it but its ludicrous, but as others have said, there trying to judge us by what happened 100s of years ago.

3 hours ago, mudpatten said:

My apologies if this has already been covered.

Slavery is as old as time itself. Many countries built empires on the back of it. Egyptian, Roman, Chinese, Indian, Viking, Islamic, German, American and British to name those empires that come most readily to my mind. Being a victim of slavery was never the exclusive privelidge of black people and more than a few of us white Anglo Saxons were carted off in chains by Viking slavers whose captives ended up spread around the then known world. That it happened some years ago makes it no less wrong.

Slavery was never right and it still goes on covertly, but it was Britain that led the world in it`s suppression and eventual abolition in the early 1800`s and it was once again Britain that led the world with the eventual defeat of slavery in Europe and Japan in 1945.

Our historical track record of confronting and defeating slavery is second to none but the protesters seem to have conveniently fogotten that.

I`d actually fogotten about those past injustices but apparently thats not a good idea if there is the potential for some form of personal advantage if you put your fingers in your ears, scream, stamp your feet and get over emotional about statues.

I`m off to deface and stone the Danish and Swedish embassies in London. "Oi! you **** you owe me compensation!"

 

Absolutely correct,  but no one wants to hear it wasn't simply white selling........... I'd best not.

[Vince Green]

On 08/06/2020 at 13:20, Lord v said:

I sincerely hope there are some on here who never buy a British made product. 

After all, the industrial revolution and imperialist expansion happened on the backs of slaves and child labour. Even those who were neither had terrible working conditions and discrimination. 

Or is that too reductionist? 

Most industrial and agricultural workers in Britain in the 1800s were no better than slaves.  

[Retsdon]

1 hour ago, henry d said:

Now rather than drone on, go have a look at the fall out regarding the district attorneys and the local PD handling of not just this case but many more.

This is the root of the problem!

William Zanzinger killed poor Hattie Carroll.....

Nothing much seems to have changed.

[Gordon R]

Quote

It was his oppo. George was driving the car and came in later only after the 'water official' had gained entry. I know, a minor distinction - but a distinction nonetheless. 

That is not what the Charge Sheet says. Do you know something the prosecutor doesn't?

[enfieldspares]

On 08/06/2020 at 22:43, Sciurus said:

I also believe that the very long  brick wall that encompasses the Knowsley Estate was built for Lord Derby by unemployed former Napoleonic soldiers. It stretches for miles.

I have heard the same said about some estates that did the wall all around in the 1920s.