New Eley Maximum cartridge

[rbrowning2]

Oh dear, you do have to question the logic of this, a lead shot cartridge targeted at the game shooters, at a time when we are voluntarily supposed to be moving away from lead shot for live quarry shooting.
If at the end of the five year voluntary transition away from lead shot the compliance is low the calls for a legal ban on lead shoot will be loud and frequent.

 

[Westley]

12 hours ago, London Best said:

Nothing to do with his money, just an RS hole.

Yes, but it does seem to be connected with something called 'New Money'  ?

[wymberley]

42 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Oh dear, you do have to question the logic of this, a lead shot cartridge targeted at the game shooters, at a time when we are voluntarily supposed to be moving away from lead shot for live quarry shooting.
If at the end of the five year voluntary transition away from lead shot the compliance is low the calls for a legal ban on lead shoot will be loud and frequent.

 

Well. that's the old school motto  - Facto Non Verba - out of the window and 'Do as I say not as I do' in through the front door. Another blasted Spanish Armada to contend with it seems.

[Fellside]

A previous contributor on this thread (sorry can’t quite remember who it was) made a valid point re silly big cartridges - it’s down to experience . . . or the lack of it.
 

I’m lucky enough to shoot regularly where pheasants are driven off high sided valleys with tall trees. Some birds - nearly always the first few in the drive - are exceptional. It’s hard to estimate a precise height, but 60 plus yards wouldn’t be exaggerating. For all I know they could be 70 or more. As the beating team descend further down slope towards the guns, the birds get progressively lower, but still very good. I can absolutely confirm that 30 grams of true English number 5 lead (2.8mm) with enough choke and a tested quality pattern, will kill these birds stone dead in the air. The old adage’ “when your on them - your on them” comes in to play here. The 5s penetrate perfectly well, even way after the pattern has gone. Pattern quality seems to be the key, not massive shot in excessive loads. By the way we average 75 head per day (8 guns) and are more focused on quality than quantity. 

[rbrowning2]

2 hours ago, Fellside said:

A previous contributor on this thread (sorry can’t quite remember who it was) made a valid point re silly big cartridges - it’s down to experience . . . or the lack of it.
 

I’m lucky enough to shoot regularly where pheasants are driven off high sided valleys with tall trees. Some birds - nearly always the first few in the drive - are exceptional. It’s hard to estimate a precise height, but 60 plus yards wouldn’t be exaggerating. For all I know they could be 70 or more. As the beating team descend further down slope towards the guns, the birds get progressively lower, but still very good. I can absolutely confirm that 30 grams of true English number 5 lead (2.8mm) with enough choke and a tested quality pattern, will kill these birds stone dead in the air. The old adage’ “when your on them - your on them” comes in to play here. The 5s penetrate perfectly well, even way after the pattern has gone. Pattern quality seems to be the key, not massive shot in excessive loads. By the way we average 75 head per day (8 guns) and are more focused on quality than quantity. 

So Fellside how do you feel about using steel shot for the next game season? As clearly if we are to achieve the shooting organisations voluntary ban of lead shot and avoid a legal ban then all must move to non toxic and not keep using lead shot.

 

 

 

[Pushandpull]

Eley Maximum were originally a heavy load in a 21/2" case : originally 11/4oz, later 13/16". Following the company's tradition, this "new" brand might be designated Hymax or Alphamax (longer brass). However Eley today can not even produce paper case Grand Prix in orange any more.

[wymberley]

12 minutes ago, Pushandpull said:

Eley Maximum were originally a heavy load in a 21/2" case : originally 11/4oz, later 13/16". Following the company's tradition, this "new" brand might be designated Hymax or Alphamax (longer brass). However Eley today can not even produce paper case Grand Prix in orange any more.

That's because ever since the ladies Of Exmouth paraded along the cliff tops (known as  The Beacon) in their finery - some with their delicates on show - in orange and red dress in order to convince the invaders that our soldiers were waiting for them, the Spanish simply haven't been the same.

[Fellside]

21 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

So Fellside how do you feel about using steel shot for the next game season? As clearly if we are to achieve the shooting organisations voluntary ban of lead shot and avoid a legal ban then all must move to non toxic and not keep using lead shot.

 

 

 

As I have not seen robust data on the health impacts of human ingested shot (non currently exists) and evidence is scant for terrestrial avian impacts, I will continue using lead and removing pellets from meat/ birds I consume. 
 

However, I am more than happy to follow the evidence if it leans  towards a non-lead direction. I think clearly we need some good research on terrestrial lead shot use and this is desperately lacking. Currently the drive to reduce or ban lead shot appears to be centred around unproven presumptions. 
Looking towards the American experience though - I am quietly encouraged by their successes with steel. We shall have to see what the future holds. Who knows where we will end up. My crystal ball is a little hazy.....?!

[enfieldspares]

Whatever else they'd make good fox medicine when the combines are out cutting. Number 3 is a good compromise for pattern and penetration. I remember shooting a old sheep carcass that was by then just the bones and English #3 would penetrate straight through the rib bones.

[Scully]

4 hours ago, Fellside said:

A previous contributor on this thread (sorry can’t quite remember who it was) made a valid point re silly big cartridges - it’s down to experience . . . or the lack of it.
 

I’m lucky enough to shoot regularly where pheasants are driven off high sided valleys with tall trees. Some birds - nearly always the first few in the drive - are exceptional. It’s hard to estimate a precise height, but 60 plus yards wouldn’t be exaggerating. For all I know they could be 70 or more. As the beating team descend further down slope towards the guns, the birds get progressively lower, but still very good. I can absolutely confirm that 30 grams of true English number 5 lead (2.8mm) with enough choke and a tested quality pattern, will kill these birds stone dead in the air. The old adage’ “when your on them - your on them” comes in to play here. The 5s penetrate perfectly well, even way after the pattern has gone. Pattern quality seems to be the key, not massive shot in excessive loads. By the way we average 75 head per day (8 guns) and are more focused on quality than quantity. 

I use 32grm 5’s for all my driven shooting, and they fold up birds in the air as long as I do my bit. 

[Fellside]

27 minutes ago, Scully said:

I use 32grm 5’s for all my driven shooting, and they fold up birds in the air as long as I do my bit. 

Yes they’re great. I used those for about 10 years. One day the gun shop supplied me with a thousand 30 gram 5s in error, instead of the 32 grams I’d asked for. By the time I got home and realised,  it was too late to change them. I thought it was a disaster as I had to use them the following day. However, I found that there was no difference in lethality (as you say if I did my bit). I did notice though that they were a little more pleasant - i.e. softer shooting. Also slightly cheaper. Anyway I’ve bought them ever since. As an after thought to my cartridge ramble, I hope we all get to use more of our favourite cartridges this year, whatever our magic formula might be.....?!

[enfieldspares]

3 hours ago, Scully said:

I use 32grm 5’s for all my driven shooting, and they fold up birds in the air as long as I do my bit. 

My late father's go to load for when he shot at Woburn and kedleston until he switched to a 20 Bore were Sellier & Bellot "Mark II" 1 1/8 #5 in their orange paper cases.

I tried a couple of years ago at Stapleford park then then new Hull loading of 1 ounce English #4 in a gun choked half choke in both barrels. All four birds shot on the first drive came down but not killed.

For the subsequent drives I went back to 1 1/16 of English #6. Hull had touted this 1 ounce #4 as a "high bird" load in tightly choked guns. Hmm! There wasn't a bird of the four I shot over twenty-five yards.

[motty]

On 25/02/2021 at 17:59, grahamch said:

Personally a day of 100 is enough but the sport is overly commercialised and they apparently have to have big bags. 

So if 8 guns have 6 drives in a day, you think an average of 2 birds per gun per drive will leave everyone satisfied?

23 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

The old Maximum was 1 3/16 ounces in a case for 2 1/2" chambered guns. So this is a horse of a very different colour. Not at all what the old Maximum was. 

Thank you for posting that. I saw a video the other day of someone using 36 grams of steel on pheasants. I assume therefore that these birds must (many of them) be unsaleable as the bruising will be horrendous. Black, blue and bloodshot.

A 36gm steel load would be an ideal load for most pheasants. Why would you suggest it isn't?

[motty]

22 hours ago, London Best said:

I have seen people that think they need 36 gram 4’s to shoot partridge coming over hedges. I put it down to lack of experience/actually knowing what they are doing.

Back to the new Maximum: what happens when someone who used to use the old Maximum as an occasional heavy load in a 2 1/2 inch gun picks some up and doesn’t realise they are so different. Makers should not be allowed to make changes like that and use the same name.

I can't agree with that. No one should be stupid enough to use cartridges that are unsuitable for their gun. If a gun owner can't read, then perhaps they should not own a gun.

 

 

Edited February 26, 2021 by motty

[London Best]

15 minutes ago, motty said:

No one should be stupid enough to use cartridges that are unsuitable for their gun. If a gun owner can't read, then perhaps they should not own a gun.

 

 

I agree with that bit. But the World is full of stupid people, and for 70 years the Maximum has been sold as suitable for 2 1/2 inch chambers.

[wymberley]

20 minutes ago, London Best said:

I agree with that bit. But the World is full of stupid people, and for 70 years the Maximum has been sold as suitable for 2 1/2 inch chambers.

And besides let's face it, no one is ever going to be so misguided as to drop a 20b cartridge into a 12b chamber - just simply is never going to happen, is it?

[London Best]

Just now, wymberley said:

And besides let's face it, no one is ever going to be so misguided as to drop a 20b cartridge into a 12b chamber - just simply is never going to happen, is it?

Doing that is actually a possible cure for stupid!

[matone]

7 hours ago, Pushandpull said:

Eley Maximum were originally a heavy load in a 21/2" case : originally 11/4oz, later 13/16". Following the company's tradition, this "new" brand might be designated Hymax or Alphamax (longer brass). However Eley today can not even produce paper case Grand Prix in orange any more.

Yes ,Alphamax would have been far more appropriate although I do wonder at the need of this development ...........

[steve s×s]

On 25/02/2021 at 17:43, grahamch said:

Have just seen an ad for the reincarnated Eley Maximum cartridge, a load of 38g of no3 lead shot.

On the face of it a useful inland goose load for inland Scotland, however this is being pushed as a high/extreme pheasant load.

The continued pushing of boundaries with excess range shooting with stupidly large loads will be our undoing by a selfish minority who indulge in this distasteful aspect of our sport.

High time we reverted to smaller bags of memorable but not extreme birds. 

At my current shoot 2 guns use 36g no4s for birds that can be killed with an ounce of 6s. All it achieves is spoiled birds.  

All I have to say is you do not have to buy or use these cartridges but for me they would have a place ( iam happy using lead, always will) 😁

[Guest cookoff013]

nothing wrong with those shells. 

i used to use big shells on groundgame. 

the bumpf says its 1250fps so in the right realm of speed for good shooting. that is really interesting. indeed. are we moving away from 1500fps?

i`d say theyve done some marketing and development right, one cartridge, that will sell poorly but be adequate for its intended, big solid hitter. 

if the demand for a high bird shell, then this is it. 

[Sweet11-87]

Bit of a head scratcher this one for me. With everyone trying to encourage us to prepare for the transition to none toxic cartridges, the way steel drops off energy faster than lead and thats even allot of shooters are now on the fency about its ethics, i thought it was a given that it was also time to transition away from super high birds aswell.

Just seems a bit like a waste of R&D on eleys part bringing out a cartridge aimed at a very small minority of shooters in a world thats got 4 uninterupted covid free seasons  if were lucky, 1 or 2 if were not left before its made obsolete by the ban.  Top that off with a payload thats pretty much going to obliterate any game shot that isnt a super hight bird, at 425 for 1K  i cant see it being a massive hit. 

 

Would of been time and money better spent figuring out how to get steel into a fiber cup and keeping it under £300 for pigeon shooters

[rbrowning2]

On 26/02/2021 at 18:58, wymberley said:

And besides let's face it, no one is ever going to be so misguided as to drop a 20b cartridge into a 12b chamber - just simply is never going to happen, is it?

If my memory is correct a member on PW did exactly that a couple of season back with gun busting consequences.

No it was not me.

 

[sandy22]

On 26/02/2021 at 07:41, Stonepark said:

It it just me or is the Pattern Control Disc, just look like an Over Powder Card under the crimp?

 

No it isn't just you.  Mind you, I think you may mean an Over Shot Card.  Someone was probably paid a lot of money to think up that (unnecessary) new name.

Still, they're High Fibre, so they must be good for you.

 

 

[Smokersmith]

The "Pattern Control Disc" seems like quite a good way of marketing what will essentially have been put in there at more cost to improve the performance of the cartridge. I guess it's a very low %age of their target market who roll their own.

Also worth noting that the shot size of these will be the same as the competing offerings from Gamebore and Hull marked up as 4's.

[wymberley]

36 minutes ago, Smokersmith said:

The "Pattern Control Disc" seems like quite a good way of marketing what will essentially have been put in there at more cost to improve the performance of the cartridge. I guess it's a very low %age of their target market who roll their own.

Also worth noting that the shot size of these will be the same as the competing offerings from Gamebore and Hull marked up as 4's.

Don't pretend to understand it, but as Eley - along with the other loaders - went at great lengths to extol the virtues of the crimp closure (as also the mono-wad) when it was introduced because unlike previously where the over shot card/ rolled turnover closure could be detrimental to the pattern, are they thinking that we've forgotten that or have they discovered that that is not the case after all? Or was it simply because the crimp was cheaper to produce?