Changes to gun licensing

[Lord v]

30 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

I look forward to reading it 😊👍

Once I get my 150k p/a consultancy job with government fixing this debacle I will be sorted. 😅

[Robden]

11 hours ago, Lord v said:

Once I get my 150k p/a consultancy job with government fixing this debacle I will be sorted. 😅

150k p/a?? Well, that looks like cheap labour to me.

[Old farrier]

1 hour ago, Robden said:

150k p/a?? Well, that looks like cheap labour to me.

Especially when it’s only going to take 1 person to slip through his new system and his heads on the chopping block 

[wymberley]

The NHS has reported that Davison had sought help from Livewell Southwest and was receiving care from them during lockdown.

[matone]

On 16/08/2021 at 22:34, phaedra1106 said:

I wish that one of the shooting organisations would stand up for once and say that this was not a result of poor or insufficient licensing/guidance.

Like the previous Horden shootings here in Durham it was a failure of the licensing department to enforce the current guidance correctly.

He should never have had his firearms returned, they were given plenty of evidence of his unsuitability, even his own family told them he was unfit and were ignored.

And that`s it in a nutshell,we`re going to be scapegoats for Police failings.

[wymberley]

38 minutes ago, matone said:

And that`s it in a nutshell,we`re going to be scapegoats for Police failings.

Straight up! 

I was just about to say something about the possible action of BASC et al. But first I had to sign in and while at it I noticed that I had a PM the nature of which has caused me to delete what I'd started to write and which rendered my intended words futile. 

[mossy835]

2 hours ago, matone said:

And that`s it in a nutshell,we`re going to be scapegoats for Police failings.

 

 

we all ways are,

[old man]

On 17/08/2021 at 09:38, wymberley said:

No, I don't believe that it is. The legislation is in place and is sufficiently robust. Somewhere along the line someone - possibly plural - failed to do what they should have done and all concerned have a let out clause known as 'guidelines'. Further restrictions? The buck passing has already started with one very senior retired officer explaining that it was all due to a lack of resources - ie, they want more dosh now, so how much more will they want to cover these extra restrictions?

Exactly so.from the bits of information being postulated now?

A robust, open investigation should highlight the situation, making those implicated as personally responsible for this dreadful failure as us individual licence holders are?

[Scully]

The thing is, even if it is found that the licensing system/police royally cocked up, I seriously doubt there will be little if any repercussions for those involved, either as individuals or departments. 
It isn’t good politics to allow anything to undermine the public’s faith in the Police, and therefore any rollicking will go on behind the scenes, someone may ‘resign’ and ‘lessons will be learned’. There will be no prosecutions; there can’t be, the system would collapse if there were. 
Then licensing guidance will be interpreted to make legally obtaining a firearm as difficult as possible, just as Durham did following their monumental cockup in returning guns to a bloke with a known ( his GP was aware ) drink problem after his OH withdrew allegations of assault. 
Lessons learned? 

[Fellside]

49 minutes ago, Scully said:

The thing is, even if it is found that the licensing system/police royally cocked up, I seriously doubt there will be little if any repercussions for those involved, either as individuals or departments. 
It isn’t good politics to allow anything to undermine the public’s faith in the Police, and therefore any rollicking will go on behind the scenes, someone may ‘resign’ and ‘lessons will be learned’. There will be no prosecutions; there can’t be, the system would collapse if there were. 
Then licensing guidance will be interpreted to make legally obtaining a firearm as difficult as possible, just as Durham did following their monumental cockup in returning guns to a bloke with a known ( his GP was aware ) drink problem after his OH withdrew allegations of assault. 
Lessons learned? 

There are obvious troubling parallels re Durham incident and the recent Plymouth one. Essentially monumental policing failures. 
 

I do hope the so called ‘powers that be’ realise that the shooting community will not be used as a scape goat. Such an attack on legit’ gun owners would create an unholy stink and extend the media attention span by weeks. I’m sure the police / home office wouldn’t want such a prolonged negative exposure re their failures. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

9 hours ago, Fellside said:

I do hope the so called ‘powers that be’ realise that the shooting community will not be used as a scape goat. Such an attack on legit’ gun owners would create an unholy stink and extend the media attention span by weeks. I’m sure the police / home office wouldn’t want such a prolonged negative exposure re their failures. 

Do you honestly expect the Police to accept any wrongdoing on their part?   I don't!

We will be painted as the wrongdoers because we wish to legally hold weapons and kill animals.

[Fellside]

1 hour ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Do you honestly expect the Police to accept any wrongdoing on their part?   I don't!

We will be painted as the wrongdoers because we wish to legally hold weapons and kill animals.

Morning Tight Choke. My straight honest answer to your question - is yes. 

I don’t buy in to the doom-mongering…… where done for etc. etc. 

The police failing here is starkly apparent for all to see, including the mass media, and would be immensely difficult to sweep under the carpet. 
 

Having said that, I do accept that  prediction is very difficult….especially about the future….as they say. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

14 minutes ago, Fellside said:

Morning Tight Choke. My straight honest answer to your question - is yes. 

I don’t buy in to the doom-mongering…… where done for etc. etc. 

The police failing here is starkly apparent for all to see, including the mass media, and would be immensely difficult to sweep under the carpet. 
 

Having said that, I do accept that  prediction is very difficult….especially about the future….as they say. 

I hope you are correct.

[wymberley]

22 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

I hope you are correct.

In all probability your pessimism is justified. There is to be an in depth investigation into the D&CC Firearms Department procedures. Now, when announced one would have thought that, perhaps, here is a chance for an independent body to get to the bottom of things and being independent its findings would carry weight and be considered credible. Consequently, in order to avoid this possibility, the organisation chosen to carry it out is better known as the former ACPO.

Edited August 19, 2021 by wymberley

[Fellside]

2 minutes ago, wymberley said:

In all probability your pessimism is justified. There is to be an in depth investigation into the D&CC Firearms Department procedures. Now, when announced one would have thought that, perhaps, here is a chance for an independent body to get to the bottom of things and being independent its findings would carry weight and be considered credible. Consequently, in order to avoid this, the organisation chosen to carry it out is better known as the former ACPO.

Yes - the police marking their own homework again…..?! 
However, I am encouraged by the fact that it is Devon and Cornwall being investigated (sort of), rather than a House of Commons review of firearms procedures etc. This would have whipped up the antis and ‘arm chair experts’ in to a social media frenzy for weeks… with who knows what kind of populist decisions being made…?!

The only thing I can say for certain……is that the outcome is uncertain. My crystal ball is a little hazy at the moment….🙂 

[old'un]

37 minutes ago, Fellside said:

Yes - the police marking their own homework again…..?! 
However, I am encouraged by the fact that it is Devon and Cornwall being investigated (sort of), rather than a House of Commons review of firearms procedures etc. This would have whipped up the antis and ‘arm chair experts’ in to a social media frenzy for weeks… with who knows what kind of populist decisions being made…?!

The only thing I can say for certain……is that the outcome is uncertain. My crystal ball is a little hazy at the moment….🙂 

The outcome of any inquiry will effect all police forces not just Devon and Cornwall.

[Fellside]

1 hour ago, old'un said:

The outcome of any inquiry will effect all police forces not just Devon and Cornwall.

Possibly…..? Possibly not….?

With any luck it will end up being focused on the clinical aspects - as this is where the key failings are starkly apparent. 
 

Only my two penneth of speculation though - adding to the growing heap of other speculation. Who really knows for sure?

[bottletopbill]

No private company should have anything to do with any licence. 

They employ any one who will work for a small fee and feel it will lead to information being given out for a fee.

 

Let the government run a national firearms department put the ball back to  them

[TIGHTCHOKE]

3 minutes ago, bottletopbill said:

Let the government run a national firearms department put the ball back to  them

I would hope it could be done with proper standards not just interpretation of Home Office guidance.

[bottletopbill]

We should all be pushing for a set standard now as it now shows how it was wrong in certain areas.

[old'un]

42 minutes ago, Fellside said:

Possibly…..? Possibly not….?

With any luck it will end up being focused on the clinical aspects - as this is where the key failings are starkly apparent. 
 

Only my two penneth of speculation though - adding to the growing heap of other speculation. Who really knows for sure?

I would think that any inquiry by its nature will be making recommendations on the current licencing system, just hope that common sense prevails and they are not over restrictive recommendations, but by the very meaning they will be just that, recommendations, just depends on how they are interpreted and implemented by the powers that be.

[Guest cookoff013]

I agree, no company should be used for licensing. 

ive recently gone through the licencing system on a renewal. What should be simple turned out to be frustrating not due to the police. Ive held a licence for decades. Most of my adult life. Essentially the GP refused to confirm im registered with a GP, and actually confirmed they have never ever heard of me, and im not registered with that practice and sent a letter telling the police. I asked for a copy. Incidently the past 15+ years ive been registered with the same GP surgery, as stated on previous licences. (I have copys of my applications).

The letter i was sent by the GP practice was not administrated right. It missed multiple items. Like my name, my address, my practice address. And was a stock / standard letter sent out justifying administration cost. (Nothing costs that much to administrate).

 

[Fellside]

2 hours ago, old'un said:

I would think that any inquiry by its nature will be making recommendations on the current licencing system, just hope that common sense prevails and they are not over restrictive recommendations, but by the very meaning they will be just that, recommendations, just depends on how they are interpreted and implemented by the powers that be.

I see what you mean Old’un. I suppose it depends what they focus on and if the result is a caning for D and C or a more Uk wide implication. I’m optimistic. I know that’s probably a first on PW……ha ha ha 😆. 

[HantsRob]

Dare I attempt to be pro-police here for a moment, and say that the usual multi-agencies may not have offered the Police the information that was required that would clearly give cause for concern? 

An FEO can make decisions only on the information presented on his available systems. If GP, NHS, MH teams etc didn't pass information on, it won't be on PNC or local Police database. 

I think we need to give the Police a bit more credit here, and whilst I stand to be corrected in an authorative review, that the Police may have little blame.

To me it sounds like better cross-agency information is shared, but the issue with data protection and GDPR etc, is exactly how much can/should be shared before it's against someones rights. Similarly to laws meaning Police can't keep fingerprints and DNA for more than 6 months unless you're successfully prosecuted, keeping everyones prints would mean more crimes solved, but it's against a persons rights.

If D&C implement changes and is seen as gold standard, other forces will follow. It is very much the case of Policing, that a county force will be seen as gold standard, and other forces will copy best practice.

[Fellside]

12 minutes ago, HantsRob said:

Dare I attempt to be pro-police here for a moment, and say that the usual multi-agencies may not have offered the Police the information that was required that would clearly give cause for concern? 

An FEO can make decisions only on the information presented on his available systems. If GP, NHS, MH teams etc didn't pass information on, it won't be on PNC or local Police database. 

I think we need to give the Police a bit more credit here, and whilst I stand to be corrected in an authorative review, that the Police may have little blame.

To me it sounds like better cross-agency information is shared, but the issue with data protection and GDPR etc, is exactly how much can/should be shared before it's against someones rights. Similarly to laws meaning Police can't keep fingerprints and DNA for more than 6 months unless you're successfully prosecuted, keeping everyones prints would mean more crimes solved, but it's against a persons rights.

If D&C implement changes and is seen as gold standard, other forces will follow. It is very much the case of Policing, that a county force will be seen as gold standard, and other forces will copy best practice.

All good point HantsRob. However, it is understood that the family alerted Devon and Cornwall re his mental health concerns. The opportunity to investigate was served on a silver platter. 
 

I think we will learn more as time goes on. The truth will out as they say.