Semi auto prejudice,

[Oly]

For me you can shoot and wear whatever you want on driven days or clays so long as you're safe and legal. 

I find tweed trousers odd and clay shooting vests weird, much more so than my camo semi auto, jeans or mole skins, but I don't hold it against folk. Life's too short to worry about small minds. 

[Listy]

On 03/11/2021 at 22:23, redial said:

Just semi retired and would like to return to clays.

I like the idea of a semi but don't want to be frowned upon by fellow shooters.

 I remember them not being too welcome on DTL lines. 

Sporting and skeet not a problem if you collect your spent cartridges. I would of course use a flag and slip.

This was back in the 80's 90's.

 Thanks.

No problem with a semi automatic for skeet, in fact I used to shoot one myself. As far as trap’s concerned, for anything informal and providing those around you don’t mind they’re fine. For very obvious reasons please don’t shoot competitive events with one though.

It worth noting that, whilst they’re a rare sight on a trap line in the UK, when it comes to registered competition many grounds will squad semi automatic shooters together or ask them to shoot alone.

 

 

[HantsRob]

14 hours ago, Windswept said:

I don't think they are legal for game shooting. PSG, clays and pest controll only as far as I know.

Interesting, I wonder why....

6 hours ago, Scully said:

Not to mention illegal also. It is illegal to shoot game with a S1 shotgun. 

Again, on the why question.... Why?! It's a shotgun with higher cartridge capacity, but why?

14 hours ago, London Best said:

Oddly enough, it is likely that a ‘practical shotgun’ would not be, err, practical.

Less reloading for multiple birds seems practical. 2 shots a bird, 8 cartridges, that's 4 less re-loading. 

Also, if you miss a bird with 7 and hit on the eighth, why would that be so bad? 

7 hours ago, Old farrier said:

Possibly more practical to have two barrels and two different amounts of choke giving the user a better choice for the try of birds presented 

im pretty sure you would need to get it on your fac to shoot game birds with any thing more than 3 shots and pretty sure your not allowed more than 3 shots for wildfowling 

Now the choke thing really makes sense! Same as above though with the "why" for wildfowling, if it saves on having to reload?

3 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Now that would be an interesting chat with your FEO.

 

Well I want to shoot 9 shots at driven pheasant.

 

Really, why do you need to do that?

 

End of conversation!

TC, I hear you. Yet my final "why" has been asked above. Why? To save me reloading 4 times as birds fly over. 9 shots doesn't mean 9 at the same bird, but it could. What part makes it illegal or in bad taste? If the gun is handled correctly, you could either save 4 reloads or if you miss three times, you get a fourth shot.

Apart from sounding overkill, genuinely I am questioning why an FEO would think not having to reload as often would be such a terrible chat?

 

 

For all above, genuinely loving the chat and trying to learn. There's tradition, and maybe peg etiquette, but I don't get why an FEC shotgun couldn't shoot birds to save the amount of reloading, or to allow a more humane dispatch of a bird if say shot 3 only maimed a bird?
This is maybe my favourite chat so far on this forum, what great contributions

[Windswept]

7 hours ago, HantsRob said:

Again, on the why question.... Why?! It's a shotgun with higher cartridge capacity, but why?

It's a matter of need. When the laws tightened up PSG people argued the need a high capacity shotgun and so did some pest controllers. But there must havve been little or no demand for game shooting.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

7 hours ago, HantsRob said:

TC, I hear you. Yet my final "why" has been asked above. Why? To save me reloading 4 times as birds fly over. 9 shots doesn't mean 9 at the same bird, but it could. What part makes it illegal or in bad taste? If the gun is handled correctly, you could either save 4 reloads or if you miss three times, you get a fourth shot.

Apart from sounding overkill, genuinely I am questioning why an FEO would think not having to reload as often would be such a terrible chat?

HR have you ever carried a semi auto loaded with 10 rounds?

I have, great for PSG but absolutely a complete balls ache for anything else.

Lifting the nose heavy gun for driven pheasant would be tiring at least.

It would give the Anti's even more ammunition against shooting.

Let it go, it is not needed and very few shooters would want to anyway.

[London Best]

39 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

HR have you ever carried a semi auto loaded with 10 rounds?

I have, great for PSG but absolutely a complete balls ache for anything else.

Lifting the nose heavy gun for driven pheasant would be tiring at least.

It would give the Anti's even more ammunition against shooting.

Let it go, it is not needed and very few shooters would want to anyway.

It is certainly something I would never want to do and I do not possess a semi auto and never will, but I can’t think which act makes it illegal.

[Old farrier]

8 hours ago, HantsRob said:

Interesting, I wonder why....

Again, on the why question.... Why?! It's a shotgun with higher cartridge capacity, but why?

Less reloading for multiple birds seems practical. 2 shots a bird, 8 cartridges, that's 4 less re-loading. 

Also, if you miss a bird with 7 and hit on the eighth, why would that be so bad? 

Now the choke thing really makes sense! Same as above though with the "why" for wildfowling, if it saves on having to reload?

TC, I hear you. Yet my final "why" has been asked above. Why? To save me reloading 4 times as birds fly over. 9 shots doesn't mean 9 at the same bird, but it could. What part makes it illegal or in bad taste? If the gun is handled correctly, you could either save 4 reloads or if you miss three times, you get a fourth shot.

Apart from sounding overkill, genuinely I am questioning why an FEO would think not having to reload as often would be such a terrible chat?

 

 

For all above, genuinely loving the chat and trying to learn. There's tradition, and maybe peg etiquette, but I don't get why an FEC shotgun couldn't shoot birds to save the amount of reloading, or to allow a more humane dispatch of a bird if say shot 3 only maimed a bird?
This is maybe my favourite chat so far on this forum, what great contributions

First barrel is to shoot the bird second is the follow up shot on a wounded bird 

any birds  that carry on pricked or though to be wounded are taken by the back guns there stood behind the line to take care of anything wounded not to add to the bag 

The keeper and his team of beaters drive the birds in a way that you should have time to reload if you keep a cool head if not the birds will fly by 

[Scully]

19 hours ago, HantsRob said:

 

Again, on the why question.... Why?! It's a shotgun with higher cartridge capacity, but why?

 

You would have to ask the legislators that question. 

[DUNKS]

Why mess about with semi auto, why not go fully auto for game?  Come up behind game, pull trigger, swing through till well ahead. Ten shots. No more pricked birds. Cant see who could complain!😈😜

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Just now, DUNKS said:

Why mess about with semi auto, why not go fully auto for game?  Come up behind game, pull trigger, swing through till well ahead. Ten shots. No more pricked birds. Cant see who could complain!😈😜

Certainly not the cartridge manufacturers!   

[HantsRob]

15 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

HR have you ever carried a semi auto loaded with 10 rounds?

I have, great for PSG but absolutely a complete balls ache for anything else.

Lifting the nose heavy gun for driven pheasant would be tiring at least.

It would give the Anti's even more ammunition against shooting.

Let it go, it is not needed and very few shooters would want to anyway.

Nothing to let go of. Just all academic learning!

To answer, no I haven't. That's a really good reason why it would be impractical, thankyou!

14 hours ago, Old farrier said:

First barrel is to shoot the bird second is the follow up shot on a wounded bird 

any birds  that carry on pricked or though to be wounded are taken by the back guns there stood behind the line to take care of anything wounded not to add to the bag 

The keeper and his team of beaters drive the birds in a way that you should have time to reload if you keep a cool head if not the birds will fly by 

That's possibly the best reply I've read, thankyou so much!

3 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Certainly not the cartridge manufacturers!   

New semi auto-bird cartridge.... but only made in red?.....

How many spare carts do you stockpile at any one time anyway?...... 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

HR it is frowned upon to keep more than 10000.   

[London Best]

2 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

HR it is frowned upon to keep more than 10000.   

Oops!

[HantsRob]

14 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

HR it is frowned upon to keep more than 10000.   

ok how many do you have that are red?

[TIGHTCHOKE]

11 hours ago, HantsRob said:

ok how many do you have that are red?

Quite a few, all sitting nice and dry in the gun room.

[theshootist]

On 07/11/2021 at 08:33, London Best said:

It is certainly something I would never want to do and I do not possess a semi auto and never will, but I can’t think which act makes it illegal.

https://www.gov.uk/hunting/Birds

The legislation is Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1981/69

So its relatively recent and the Charles Lancaster Spencer pump action that is show in my profile procure was marketed over here for game shooting. They hold 5 12 bore black powder cartridges in the magazine. In one of my books (maybe Gough I can't recall) it is described as an ideal gun for a "hot corner". 

Although I am careful only to load 2 cartridges in my vintage pump gun if I ever use it on my shoot (which nobody bats an eyelid at), I would think a well practiced team with a pair, or trio of ejector guns would have a much greater rate of fire than I could achieve! 

People often take an interest in an old pump or auto when I'm clay shooting. Although I put the majority of shells through the over and under, I always have a few stands with a pump or old auto at the end - they are just fun to use.  

Edited November 9, 2021 by theshootist

[London Best]

1 hour ago, theshootist said:

https://www.gov.uk/hunting/Birds

The legislation is Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1981/69

So its relatively recent and the Charles Lancaster Spencer pump action that is show in my profile procure was marketed over here for game shooting. They hold 5 12 bore black powder cartridges in the magazine. In one of my books (maybe Gough I can't recall) it is described as an ideal gun for a "hot corner". 

Although I am careful only to load 2 cartridges in my vintage pump gun if I ever use it on my shoot (which nobody bats an eyelid at), I would think a well practiced team with a pair, or trio of ejector guns would have a much greater rate of fire than I could achieve! 

People often take an interest in an old pump or auto when I'm clay shooting. Although I put the majority of shells through the over and under, I always have a few stands with a pump or old auto at the end - they are just fun to use.  

Thanks for that.

But (as far as I could see) the legislation says you cannot use a S1 shotgun to take birds. But we all know people who have S1 shotguns conditioned for pest species, so, IF you could get conditioned for game it would not be illegal, just unlikely to happen. Or am I still missing something?

I had never noticed the Spencer in your picture. Very unusual. Do you know what year it was made? I have to say that in over 60 years of all types of shooting I have never seen anyone using a pump action anywhere for anything, let alone a Spencer! I have had a few shots with a couple of different semi-autos and have nothing against them for those who want them. The gun I really dislike is the o/u, but each to their own.

[Scully]

15 minutes ago, London Best said:

Thanks for that.

But (as far as I could see) the legislation says you cannot use a S1 shotgun to take birds. But we all know people who have S1 shotguns conditioned for pest species, so, IF you could get conditioned for game it would not be illegal, just unlikely to happen. Or am I still missing something?

I had never noticed the Spencer in your picture. Very unusual. Do you know what year it was made? I have to say that in over 60 years of all types of shooting I have never seen anyone using a pump action anywhere for anything, let alone a Spencer! I have had a few shots with a couple of different semi-autos and have nothing against them for those who want them. The gun I really dislike is the o/u, but each to their own.

You can have your S1 shotgun conditioned to shoot birds under the provisions of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1988, but you cannot shoot game with a S1 shotgun. 
A S1 shotgun of any action is still a S1 shotgun irrespective of how many rounds it is loaded with. 

[theshootist]

43 minutes ago, London Best said:

Thanks for that.

But (as far as I could see) the legislation says you cannot use a S1 shotgun to take birds. But we all know people who have S1 shotguns conditioned for pest species, so, IF you could get conditioned for game it would not be illegal, just unlikely to happen. Or am I still missing something?

I had never noticed the Spencer in your picture. Very unusual. Do you know what year it was made? I have to say that in over 60 years of all types of shooting I have never seen anyone using a pump action anywhere for anything, let alone a Spencer! I have had a few shots with a couple of different semi-autos and have nothing against them for those who want them. The gun I really dislike is the o/u, but each to their own.

Yes that is correct. The act says you cannot use a gun which holds more than 2 shells in the magazine to shoot any wild bird. Its the terms of the general license that provide an exemption from the primary legislation for listed pest species. So if a species is not on the general license then you can't use a "high capacity" shotgun to shoot them. 

The conditions on your certificate are just the terms of use dictated by your issuing police force - they cannot overturn primary legislation. So if I managed to get "shooting of game birds" as one of the uses on my FAC it would be no defence should I use a 10 shot pump on a driven day!  All completely hypothetical of course!

The Spencer pump was produced from 1882 to 1889. Charles Lancaster purchased 80 actions in the white and fitted straight walnut stocks, damascus barrels and magazine tubes. I have seen 3 or 4 over the last 15+ years and purchased one, which sadly didn't work out. Most were lost or shot to bits when nitro cartridges arrived. The first really successful pump was the Winchester 1897, but that was designed by a genius! 

Edited November 9, 2021 by theshootist

[London Best]

Thank you for the reply.

Wow! Just 80. I wonder how many survive?

[theshootist]

15 minutes ago, London Best said:

Thank you for the reply.

Wow! Just 80. I wonder how many survive?

A handful? Having examined them, the damascus barrels are very thin. Some have been bodged to restrict them to two shots and all the ones that I have seen have been shot very loose. I have seen some fully made by Spencer too and imported from the states. The action is very different to a conventional pump with a sliding breach. Its more like a rotating block. 

 

Why do you hate the over and under so much? Surely you would appreciate a Browning B25, straight hand, roach belly stock, narrow game rib on 27" barrels, exquisite engraving and all hand made on a bench in Belgium? 

Edited November 9, 2021 by theshootist

[London Best]

1 hour ago, theshootist said:

A handful? Having examined them, the damascus barrels are very thin. Some have been bodged to restrict them to two shots and all the ones that I have seen have been shot very loose. I have seen some fully made by Spencer too and imported from the states. The action is very different to a conventional pump with a sliding breach. Its more like a rotating block. 

 

Why do you hate the over and under so much? Surely you would appreciate a Browning B25, straight hand, roach belly stock, narrow game rib on 27" barrels, exquisite engraving and all hand made on a bench in Belgium? 

I just have never liked them. I have a friend with exactly that gun. Despite some of it’s nice features it is still much too deep in the action to ever be considered beautiful in my eyes.

 

[WalkedUp]

In my own opinion engraving on a semi auto is lipstick on a pig, and I say that as someone who loves semi autos. The more functional and worn with time the more beautiful in my eyes. I have an original Beretta A300, older than me and perfect in every way. 

[London Best]

34 minutes ago, WalkedUp said:

In my own opinion engraving on a semi auto is lipstick on a pig, and I say that as someone who loves semi autos. The more functional and worn with time the more beautiful in my eyes. I have an original Beretta A300, older than me and perfect in every way. 

I have to agree with that.

[Gas seal]

Hi theshootist my friend often told me that his friend owned a Charles Lancaster/ Spencer pump action shot gun . He was amazed at the Damascus barrel on the gun. He thinks it was some time after the second word war.  This is a photo ,1957,of Herman who owned the gun, and he gave me a book with an article on the gun. He has a book about the test that was done in the field on the gun he will have a look for it.