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Highway Code change!


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2 hours ago, Old Boggy said:

It was a `tongue in cheek` comment. I don`t actually do that, although sometimes feel like doing it when they are riding two or even three abreast knowing full well that a car is hoping to overtake them, given the right road clearance/conditions.

I appreciate that, but not everyone would.

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29 minutes ago, mel b3 said:

Well I can only speak from my own experience with this , but I've been giving way to pedestrians on junctions for around 35 years , and so far , nobody has rear ended me , so considering that I'm a hgv driver , that spends my whole working life on the road , then I drive backwards and forwards to work , then I drive to go fishing or shooting,  then I drive to my land in Wales,  I must just be very lucky , as I've managed to avoid the carnage that comes with giving way to pedestrians and cyclists.

People are getting bent out of shape over nothing at all . Any half decent driver , with any sense of right and wrong , already gives way when a pedestrian is in your way , or is about to cross a junction . Anyone that doesn't,  really shouldn’t be driving anything other than a toy tractor.

Many people get behind the wheel , and think that they own the road , and that everyone else has to get out of their way . The reality of driving is that its a team game , and everyone needs to play their part ( it's more important now than ever). I fully agree that their are plenty of idiot pedestrians,  just the same as their is many idiot drivers , but , it's up to every driver to do their best .

I'll also add that I'm by no means a perfect driver , and I make my share of mistakes , but whenever I'm behind the wheel , I'm always doing my best 👍

These are my thoughts and experiences almost exactly,,,, except for not being an HGV driver.

A point to note is,,,, all people are pedestrians, but not all pedestrians are drivers ! It's all about tolerance and being aware of your surroundings, and don't forget, this isn't all about pedestrians and cyclists,,,, it's for everyone 🤔

I'm an ex cyclist so am very road savvy. In 25 years of cycling (including going to work as an on-site bricklayer with my tools strapped to my bike, and lots of recreational cycling) not having a driving licence until I was 34, I didn't get knocked off my bike once. Close a couple of times, but never involved or caused any incidents.

I do get the impression that a lot of drivers (all vehicle types I hasten to add) get in their vehicles, close the door, start the engine and expect to be at their destination instantly ! Basically, no thoughts about anyone or anything except themselves 😏

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4 minutes ago, JKD said:

These are my thoughts and experiences almost exactly,,,, except for not being an HGV driver.

A point to note is,,,, all people are pedestrians, but not all pedestrians are drivers ! It's all about tolerance and being aware of your surroundings, and don't forget, this isn't all about pedestrians and cyclists,,,, it's for everyone 🤔

I'm an ex cyclist so am very road savvy. In 25 years of cycling (including going to work as an on-site bricklayer with my tools strapped to my bike, and lots of recreational cycling) not having a driving licence until I was 34, I didn't get knocked off my bike once. Close a couple of times, but never involved or caused any incidents.

I do get the impression that a lot of drivers (all vehicle types I hasten to add) get in their vehicles, close the door, start the engine and expect to be at their destination instantly ! Basically, no thoughts about anyone or anything except themselves 😏

Bang on the money 👍.

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35 minutes ago, mel b3 said:

Well I can only speak from my own experience with this , but I've been giving way to pedestrians on junctions for around 35 years , and so far , nobody has rear ended me , so considering that I'm a hgv driver , that spends my whole working life on the road , then I drive backwards and forwards to work , then I drive to go fishing or shooting,  then I drive to my land in Wales,  I must just be very lucky , as I've managed to avoid the carnage that comes with giving way to pedestrians and cyclists.

People are getting bent out of shape over nothing at all . Any half decent driver , with any sense of right and wrong , already gives way when a pedestrian is in your way , or is about to cross a junction . Anyone that doesn't,  really shouldn’t be driving anything other than a toy tractor.

Many people get behind the wheel , and think that they own the road , and that everyone else has to get out of their way . The reality of driving is that its a team game , and everyone needs to play their part ( it's more important now than ever). I fully agree that their are plenty of idiot pedestrians,  just the same as their is many idiot drivers , but , it's up to every driver to do their best .

I'll also add that I'm by no means a perfect driver , and I make my share of mistakes , but whenever I'm behind the wheel , I'm always doing my best 👍.

I should also add , that their is a school at each end of my street , so I'm more aware than most , what it's like to have , unthinking or self righteous pedestrians around , and other drivers that swing their car doors wide open without looking , or block junctions , or block your drive , or even park on your drive 😄.

I am sorry Mel but you appear to have missed the point I was trying to make. I have just retired from a 40+ year career as a class 1 lorry driver myself, I also have had no problems with pedestrians at junctions, by and large making common sense judgements to "give way" to a pedestrian, or not. On some occasions it has been better for the pedestrian to give way to the driver ie. when traffic lights just after a junction favour  the flow of traffic, common sense would mean that the pedestrian wait for the lights to change and then expect  a  driver to let him cross. 

Further more, with regard to the example above, again common sense would normally mean drivers behind the driver giving way will have realised the lights had changed and come to a stop themselves.

So I agree the point that for years, most good drivers with common sense and experience have had no problems thus far. However, these new rules have removed the need for the pedestrian to use common sense. In theory, a driver could be travelling at say 40mph on a main road but passing side roads, when all of a sudden a kid running down one of these side roads, (knowing he now has the right of way) decides to run straight out into the main road.

The driver, having no time to come safely to a stop has to take avoiding action and slam the brakes on, driver behind not expecting this on a main road because they did not see the kid, rear ends driver in front. Or worse, driver try's to stop in time but fails and hits the kid. kid was at fault but due to new rules driver gets blame. 

   

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17 minutes ago, Tonka54 said:

I am sorry Mel but you appear to have missed the point I was trying to make. I have just retired from a 40+ year career as a class 1 lorry driver myself, I also have had no problems with pedestrians at junctions, by and large making common sense judgements to "give way" to a pedestrian, or not. On some occasions it has been better for the pedestrian to give way to the driver ie. when traffic lights just after a junction favour  the flow of traffic, common sense would mean that the pedestrian wait for the lights to change and then expect  a  driver to let him cross. 

Further more, with regard to the example above, again common sense would normally mean drivers behind the driver giving way will have realised the lights had changed and come to a stop themselves.

So I agree the point that for years, most good drivers with common sense and experience have had no problems thus far. However, these new rules have removed the need for the pedestrian to use common sense. In theory, a driver could be travelling at say 40mph on a main road but passing side roads, when all of a sudden a kid running down one of these side roads, (knowing he now has the right of way) decides to run straight out into the main road.

The driver, having no time to come safely to a stop has to take avoiding action and slam the brakes on, driver behind not expecting this on a main road because they did not see the kid, rear ends driver in front. Or worse, driver try's to stop in time but fails and hits the kid. kid was at fault but due to new rules driver gets blame. 

   

I do get what your saying 👍 .  

Kids can't really be counted in it , as they just haven't learned roadcraft yet (a pet hate of mine , you should teach your kids roadcraft , swimming etc , as soon as possible) , and even with the new legislation,  no driver would be convicted for a totally unavoidable accident. 

You've been on the road longer than me , and will have done many more miles( I do very little distance work these days) , so you're probably even more aware than me just how quickly things are changing on the roads (especially the last five years or so) . Road manners and common sense seem to have vanished over night , and the government have to do something to try to make the roads safer for all of us .

As I said earlier,  I live on a small suburban road , with a school at either end ,and  at the bottom of my street is a small posh estate . The posh estate has several very well to do idiot drivers with very fast cars , that regularly pass my house at around 60mph . This type of driving just wouldn't have happened 30 years ago , but seems to be more and more acceptable these days , so something has to be done , in an attempt to make the roads safer .👍

 

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5 hours ago, Old Boggy said:

when they are riding two or even three abreast knowing full well that a car is hoping to overtake them, given the right road clearance/conditions

This is now covered in the code that they are to move to single file to allow passing - I won't hold my breath though.

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You must be able to stop in the distance visible or before the driver ahead. A HGV driver rear ending a driver ahead that stops abruptly should not be driving HGVs, that’s why so many end up in prison for doing so into queues of traffic on motorways. Several of my friends are HGV drivers, it is a hard job requiring constant concentration. 

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44 minutes ago, mel b3 said:

I do get what your saying 👍 .  

Kids can't really be counted in it , as they just haven't learned roadcraft yet (a pet hate of mine , you should teach your kids roadcraft , swimming etc , as soon as possible) , and even with the new legislation,  no driver would be convicted for a totally unavoidable accident. 

You've been on the road longer than me , and will have done many more miles( I do very little distance work these days) , so you're probably even more aware than me just how quickly things are changing on the roads (especially the last five years or so) . Road manners and common sense seem to have vanished over night , and the government have to do something to try to make the roads safer for all of us .

As I said earlier,  I live on a small suburban road , with a school at either end ,and  at the bottom of my street is a small posh estate . The posh estate has several very well to do idiot drivers with very fast cars , that regularly pass my house at around 60mph . This type of driving just wouldn't have happened 30 years ago , but seems to be more and more acceptable these days , so something has to be done , in an attempt to make the roads safer .👍

 

Yes point taken Mel, Kids was maybe a bad example for the reasons you have stated. But many will feel, myself included, that it is really unfair to put the onus of responsibility completely on the motorist for any incidents that happen between pedestrians/cyclists and horse riders.

I fully appreciate these groups are more vulnerable to the dangers of public roads, but I feel the answer is to make all road users equally responsible for their actions in the event of an RTA or traffic incident.

Sadly though my other point about the new rules on junctions being open to abuse by those that would seek to purposely cause chaos and disruption remains valid.      

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1 hour ago, Yellow Bear said:

This is now covered in the code that they are to move to single file to allow passing - I won't hold my breath though.

Rule 66

You should

  • be considerate of the needs of other road users when riding in groups.
  • You can ride two abreast and it can be safer to do so, particularly in larger groups or when accompanying children or less experienced riders.
  • Be aware of drivers behind you and allow them to overtake (for example, by moving into single file or stopping) when you feel it is safe to let them do so

 

This is advice, not law but the onus remains on the cyclist to decide when it is safe for drivers behind to pass, it is not up to the driver to determine that he can 'make it' and squeeze past.

 

Legally, any overtaking manouvere by a driver behind is at their insurance risk.

Other than single track roads, riding two abreast allows vehicles behind a quicker overtake, by using the opposite lane.

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35 minutes ago, WalkedUp said:

You must be able to stop in the distance visible or before the driver ahead. A HGV driver rear ending a driver ahead that stops abruptly should not be driving HGVs, that’s why so many end up in prison for doing so into queues of traffic on motorways. Several of my friends are HGV drivers, it is a hard job requiring constant concentration. 

Exactly, so why introduce new rules that are more likely to increase not decrease rear end RTA's. 

And yes I totally agree HGV drivers, or any driver for that matter, that runs into the back of a stationary traffic is guilty of lack of attention and concentration. However it's not so clear cut in an emergency situation, yes, in the eyes of the law if a vehicle stop dead in front of you and you cannot stop you are at fault.

But lets be realistic here, British roads, including the motorways were never designed to cope with the sheer amount of traffic that now uses them on a daily basis. if every motorist stuck rigidly to the recommended / not legal , stopping distances for dry roads at 40mph, highway code recommends 36metres, Brake research recommends a whopping 51metres, then there would not be enough road surface in Britain to accommodate todays traffic especially as these distances increase in bad conditions.

So on roads such as main roads or motorways where there is a steady traffic flow under normal conditions, with sudden stops possible but not expected, it's normally the case that these stopping gaps are closed up a good bit. This is one of the reasons why you get motorway pile-ups   

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54 minutes ago, Tonka54 said:

Yes point taken Mel, Kids was maybe a bad example for the reasons you have stated. But many will feel, myself included, that it is really unfair to put the onus of responsibility completely on the motorist for any incidents that happen between pedestrians/cyclists and horse riders.

I fully appreciate these groups are more vulnerable to the dangers of public roads, but I feel the answer is to make all road users equally responsible for their actions in the event of an RTA or traffic incident.

Sadly though my other point about the new rules on junctions being open to abuse by those that would seek to purposely cause chaos and disruption remains valid.      

The problem with making it equal , is that it isn't equal . The car driver is much more likely to kill the pedestrian,  so the pressure is completely placed with the driver to not hit the pedestrian. 

Your point about the new rules being open to abuse is right , but , the type of idiot that'll play face of with a car under the new rules , is the same idiot that would play face off with a car under the old rules .

At the end of the day , the problem isn't with normal , car drivers , pedestrians,  horse riders , bike riders , or , legislation.  The problem is with selfish,  unthinking , uncaring , idiots , with no respect for others.

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4 minutes ago, mel b3 said:

The problem with making it equal , is that it isn't equal . The car driver is much more likely to kill the pedestrian,  so the pressure is completely placed with the driver to not hit the pedestrian. 

Your point about the new rules being open to abuse is right , but , the type of idiot that'll play face of with a car under the new rules , is the same idiot that would play face off with a car under the old rules .

At the end of the day , the problem isn't with normal , car drivers , pedestrians,  horse riders , bike riders , or , legislation.  The problem is with selfish,  unthinking , uncaring , idiots , with no respect for others.

Totally agreed Mel, it's always been the case that the motorist has a duty of care to avoid all accidents especially those involving pedestrians if at all possible. The problem is non motorists can, and do cause accidents as well.

In the past, if such an accident was investigated and it was found to be caused by a non motorist, and that the said motorist had done all within his power to avoid the accident, then most likely, the motorist would have been exonerated.

Under the new rules, I am not so sure this would be the case. 

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4 minutes ago, Tonka54 said:

Totally agreed Mel, it's always been the case that the motorist has a duty of care to avoid all accidents especially those involving pedestrians if at all possible. The problem is non motorists can, and do cause accidents as well.

In the past, if such an accident was investigated and it was found to be caused by a non motorist, and that the said motorist had done all within his power to avoid the accident, then most likely, the motorist would have been exonerated.

Under the new rules, I am not so sure this would be the case. 

I know that the new law probably looks a bit like that , but the reality is  , that you cant be prosecuted for something that someone else did , and you couldn't possibly avoid .

I really hope that the new rules make the roads a safer place for everyone , but real life experience tells me that it'll make no difference whatsoever. 

 

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I haven't read every bit of this topic being honest, so this might have already been said.

Kids are going to have a field day messing about, people just standing talking are unwittingly going to cause mayhem. Most will not understand what they are doing wrong.

I can envisage rear end shunts galore, and A + E having more visitors. Some roads will be grid locked with traffic having to match the speed of a single cyclist. Insurance companies are petrified I bet.

Re - squirting cyclists, years ago, some yobs were driving the country lanes knowing there would be joggers out and giving them a volley with a paintball gun. Not much protection wearing only shorts and vest.

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9 minutes ago, 30-6 said:

I haven't read every bit of this topic being honest, so this might have already been said.

Kids are going to have a field day messing about, people just standing talking are unwittingly going to cause mayhem. Most will not understand what they are doing wrong.

I can envisage rear end shunts galore, and A + E having more visitors. Some roads will be grid locked with traffic having to match the speed of a single cyclist. Insurance companies are petrified I bet.

Re - squirting cyclists, years ago, some yobs were driving the country lanes knowing there would be joggers out and giving them a volley with a paintball gun. Not much protection wearing only shorts and vest.

Why do you do this?

You post without thinking and it is pointed out to you that a thread is already running in the correct section.

Than you can't be bothered to read through all the posts that came before you.

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6 hours ago, 30-6 said:

I haven't read every bit of this topic being honest, so this might have already been said.

Kids are going to have a field day messing about, people just standing talking are unwittingly going to cause mayhem. Most will not understand what they are doing wrong.

I can envisage rear end shunts galore, and A + E having more visitors. Some roads will be grid locked with traffic having to match the speed of a single cyclist. Insurance companies are petrified I bet.

Re - squirting cyclists, years ago, some yobs were driving the country lanes knowing there would be joggers out and giving them a volley with a paintball gun. Not much protection wearing only shorts and vest.

You should have a read through the thread , it's interesting to see the opinions and concerns of others , regarding the changes in the law.

My take on it all , is that the type of fools that play chicken with cars under the new rules , are the same fools that would have played chicken with cars under the old rules .   People standing around talking at the kerbside , might cause the odd issue for a driver , but they were already causing that same issue for drivers before the rule change ,and  identifying those that are just standing and chatting,  is just part of your responsibility as a driver .

Old Boggy was only joking when he mentioned squirting cyclists , Chris is an absolutely top bloke , as I'm sure most of pigeon watch will tell you.

On the subject of squirting pedestrians or cyclists,  if its a deliberate act , its an assault.  I would guess that shooting at joggers with a paintball gun , might get you a little bit of jail time these days.

Reading back through the posts , especially those by tonka 54 , it's made me realise that we might have a generation of children , growing up and thinking that they have no responsibility for their own actions and safety when at the kerbside , and that sole responsibility lies with the car drivers . Only time will tell how that one works out .

Looking forward , the government seems pretty determined to cut the amount of vehicles on the roads , so coupled with the fact that cars will soon be driving themselves,  and should be able to avoid collisions with pedestrians,  the roads should be getting safer ( why do I think that things will get worse before they get better). 

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21 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

IMG-20220130-WA0018.jpg.2871b0d789f4d1df91d64f8f9edbb0cd.jpg

😂 This is how I see it! Who’s going to come off worse if it goes wrong? 
The sales of head and dash cams are going to go through the roof, I’ll be getting the latter that’s for sure.

Any chance of cyclists being made to use a bell in this new legislation? 

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On 29/01/2022 at 21:29, mel b3 said:

I know that the new law probably looks a bit like that , but the reality is  , that you cant be prosecuted for something that someone else did , and you couldn't possibly avoid .

But you do get punished though - you stop, someone runs up your back end - your paying for it for years in elevated insurance - plus all the pain and hassle of having to get it all sorted.

Black Belt Barrister on YouTube has some interesting thoughts on this issue

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3 minutes ago, discobob said:

But you do get punished though - you stop, someone runs up your back end - your paying for it for years in elevated insurance - plus all the pain and hassle of having to get it all sorted.

Black Belt Barrister on YouTube has some interesting thoughts on this issue

The easiest way to settle this one is , count how many times you have to apply your brakes , the next time you go out in your car , then count how many times the driver behind runs into your back end . 👍

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9 minutes ago, mel b3 said:

The easiest way to settle this one is , count how many times you have to apply your brakes , the next time you go out in your car , then count how many times the driver behind runs into your back end . 👍

in the general course of things I do agree with you there - but now you go to turn - perhaps it is obstructed view as we have a lot round here - narrow paths and sharp corners with perhaps a vehicle parked just before the turn and maybe it is night and the lighting is poor - your indicating left, car behind you is fully away, but is also having to navigate the parked car with oncoming cars - and you see last second that there is a pedestrian that 'may' be wanting to cross and have to stop quickly to let them - meanwhile the guy behind (rightly or wrongly) is suddenly bearing down on you having misread your actions. It won't happen all the time but I bet there will be an increase of this type of scenario.

BBB has about the confusion and chaos that this will cause when you encounter a mexican standoff scenario

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7 minutes ago, discobob said:

in the general course of things I do agree with you there - but now you go to turn - perhaps it is obstructed view as we have a lot round here - narrow paths and sharp corners with perhaps a vehicle parked just before the turn and maybe it is night and the lighting is poor - your indicating left, car behind you is fully away, but is also having to navigate the parked car with oncoming cars - and you see last second that there is a pedestrian that 'may' be wanting to cross and have to stop quickly to let them - meanwhile the guy behind (rightly or wrongly) is suddenly bearing down on you having misread your actions. It won't happen all the time but I bet there will be an increase of this type of scenario.

BBB has about the confusion and chaos that this will cause when you encounter a mexican standoff scenario

Whilst I can understand the concerns that many have , I can only speak from my own experience. 

As the driver of the car that is about to turn the corner,  you should have been reducing your speed on your approach to the corner , your speed reduction , will ( should ) cause any following vehicles to also reduce their speed . They will have(should have ) seen your indicator,  and will(should ) be able to figure out what's going on , so if you do need to stop,  it will ( very much should) be a low speed stop , that wouldnt(shouldn't ) come as a surprise to the driver behind you .

I'm fully aware that the driver behind you may well be an idiot that couldn't drive sheep to market , and might rear end you , but , even without the new legislation,  he would have still been the same idiot , and would have still rear ended you .

The problem is poor ( and rapidly plummeting) driving standards , and I live your above scenario every day when I get home from work . A large busy main road , with parked cars both sides , and I turn left into a small side road , also with parked cars on both sides , and hundreds of kids ( many unnatended ) on pavements,  and in the road . I'll agree that it's not a great situation , but , it's a situation that any driver should be able to deal with . Full disclosure , my Mrs and my lad , both do a 1.5 mile detour to avoid it.

I drive a bin lorry these days , so most of my working day involves being in the Mexican standoff situation , but as yet , I've never been in a situation that couldn't be figured out within seconds . Being able to figure it out , is just basic roadcraft 👍.

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Scenario,,,, (as I know they are important to some on this thread)

A vehicle carefully moves out of a side road/parking space/driveway just into the corner of a side road, and its bumper is just protruding (but stationary) into the view of you in your oncoming vehicle. You brake firmly to avoid a potential collision and the vehicle behind you hits the rear of your vehicle. An accident, avoidable but an accident none the less. You possibly will think that the driver behind should be paying more attention.

Now,,,, replace the vehicle 'creeping out' with a pedestrian/cyclist/motorcycle. The pedestrian/cyclist/motorcycle has stopped, but obviously wants to cross the road/continue their journey. You brake firmly and come to a stop to allow the pedestrian/cyclist/motorcycle to cross/continue,,,, vehicle behind hits the rear of your vehicle. Same result,,,, the driver behind should have been paying more attention.

The only difference is what caused you to brake/stop suddenly.

Makes no difference as to why a vehicle stops/slows down suddenly (genuinely),,,, if that vehicle gets hit from behind, the driver of that vehicle is at fault.

Car/van/lorry drivers don't have total right of way 100% of the time.

I could write a book a week about the appalling driving I witness ! And no, I'm not a perfect driver,,,, just safe and aware of my surroundings.

BTW, I drive a LWB Renault Trafic with only side mirrors to see behind.

Being more aware and slowing down just a tad won't delay you enough to make any big difference to your journey time 👍

 

 

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