Putin announces 'military operation' in Ukraine.

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

Bit of a ramble but it’s a subject which fascinates and scares the poop out of me in equal measures

Actually, I think you put it all very well. 

The suicide vest analogy is very good, the level of indoctrination/brainwashing, or simply wanting to 'belong', are powerful tools, used to get people to do things they would normally not want to. 

Take this to the level of historical warfare, where young men, walk across a battlefield toward a line of guns/sharp things, knowing there's every chance their internal organs might soon be decorating the ground. 

Because someone far away told them to. 

[oldypigeonpopper]

Hello, I see now Putin is allowing the Russian ooppss Ukraine grain to leave the port 🤔 , after he has bombed the home and killed a Ukraine grain merchant and his wife,

Edited August 1, 2022 by oldypigeonpopper

[discobob]

16 hours ago, oowee said:

This whole lizard people thing is cracking me up. 

15 hours ago, Mungler said:

And yet 12,000,000 Americans believe they exist. That’s a big number. We’re all doomed.

 

This is what they want you to believe 

15 hours ago, Scully said:

David Icke has made a very good living out of them! 😳

He is their leader - hiding in plain sight!!!

[Mungler]

31 minutes ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, I see now Putin is allowing the Russian ooppss Ukraine grain to leave the port 🤔 , after he has bombed the home and killed a Ukraine grain merchant and his wife,

 

And don't forget the signed treaty which was immediately followed by a Russian cruise missile strike on the port of Odesa.

There are of course those who will claim that any act of treachery or aggression on the part of the Russians must be a false flag operation or denied because no one would be as brazen or stupid to do such a thing, even when it's been admitted by the Kremlin and reported in the FT 🙂

 

[Rewulf]

6 minutes ago, Mungler said:

There are of course those who will claim that any act of treachery or aggression on the part of the Russians must be a false flag operation or denied because no one would be as brazen or stupid to do such a thing, even when it's been admitted by the Kremlin and reported in the FT

Well it didnt take long 😆

Surely invading someones country after indicating you wouldnt , is an act of treachery and aggression ?
Why act all surprised when such acts continue , and why would anyone deny that it is just that ?

There seems to be this pervading attitude now, that anyone who questions the narrative is some kind of traitorous 5th columnist , who needs to be rounded up and sent for re education, I thought that was a Russian thing ?
No one I know sits at home waving Russian flags with a photo of Putin on the wall, I also dont know anyone who rushed out to buy the special Zelensky edition of Vogue.
TBH its becoming a hard sell for the media to keep the western public interested in Ukraine, thats why there are constant attempts to create shock and awe news pieces, that are poorly researched, and often highly inaccurate.
Couple this with an inability of western viewers to fact check anything, and you have if anything, a captive audience, who are less bothered about babies dying, and more interested in what its going to do to there gas bill.

Like you say , the kremlin admitted it, so who is stupid enough to deny it happened ?
The facts of the matter are unclear, what did they actually hit? Well according to the Ukrainians , nothing really https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvXIVW0dS9U

The Russians claim to have hit a shipment of Harpoon missiles and other ordnance, but there is no evidence to support this.
But then, nothing the Russians say can be corroborated, as the means to do so dont exist, so we assume theyre lying.
What we forget, is that there is no way to corroborate what the Ukrainians say either, but we assume they are telling the truth ?

What is interesting is the death of the 'grain merchant' (and wife) who was killed elsewhere in 'shelling' 
He was heavily involved in the expected shipments going out of Odessa today, and had the title of 'hero' of Ukraine.
He was also worth $400 million....
Call me an old conspiracy theorist but , how convenient 

 

[Mungler]

22 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Call me an old conspiracy theorist but....

Well that didn't take long either 🙂

[Mice!]

So the question is

a, who is selling the grain?

B, who is buying the grain?

[Scully]

28 minutes ago, Mice! said:

So the question is

a, who is selling the grain?

B, who is buying the grain?

A: We get ours from a local farmer. 
B: Us. 

[mel b3]

49 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Well that didn't take long either 🙂

You gotta give him that one mung. That one smells like a kipper that's been sitting in the sun for a week 😁.

[Rewulf]

11 minutes ago, Mice! said:

So the question is

a, who is selling the grain?

B, who is buying the grain?

Good questions.
The way its portrayed, 'Ukraine' needs the money from these grain shipments for the war effort, those HIMARS systems dont come cheap !
But it doesnt belong to Ukraine, it belongs to private farmers, and eventually grain oligarchs like the one who met his unfortunate demise while he was asleep with his wife, on the err, front line of fighting.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/7/31/russia-pummels-ukraines-mykolaiv-killing-major-grain-exporter

Interestingly, they were the only people killed in this 'incessant' attack on the city...

The first shipment is headed for Lebanon apparently, the starving of Africa will have to wait, and the world wide famine that 'Russia have caused' seems to have been averted for now.
The outbound shipment will be inspected at Istanbul by a joint team, and I would assume the returning ships likewise.

[Stonepark]

Ukrainians now resorting to anti personnel mines delivered aerially into cities......

 

[JohnfromUK]

8 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

Ukrainians now resorting to anti personnel mines delivered aerially into cities......

Except that they are used by Russia and made in Russia (hence the Crylic script).  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PFM-1

 

[Rewulf]

58 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Except that they are used by Russia and made in Russia (hence the Crylic script). 

'In a November 2008 presentation, Ukraine indicated that it had destroyed 101,088 PFM-1 mines per the convention in 1999. In 2013, a framework programme in support of the EU-Ukraine agreements highlighted that Europe would provide support to Ukraine in the destruction of its PFM-1 stockpiles ^[10]. Ukraine stated that its stockpile of PFM-1 mines in 1999 was 6,000,000 units, which has been reduced to ~5,600,000 after the destruction of the mines in 1999 and the destruction of an additional 300,000 mines by the NATO Support and Procurement Agency – NSPA at the Pavlograd Chemical Plant.^[10]'

Its possible Ukraine still has millions of them.
Again , who do you believe , has Russia dropped them on territory it holds , endangering civilians , just to make Ukraine look bad ?
Or has Ukraine really shelled civilian areas with cluster mines, so it could blame Russia ?

Who is going to be believed ?

[Mungler]

2 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

'Who is going to be believed ?

Simple, if it came from the Kremlin it’s going to be a lie, and then work from there.

[JohnfromUK]

Just now, Rewulf said:

Again , who do you believe

Which is exactly my point.  You can find 'reports' on the internet saying both sides have used them.  I have no idea if any of it is true.  What is 'fact' is that they were made in Russia and have been used in the past by Russia (in Afghanistan for one).

You could also argue that Ukraine is unlikely to spread them in territory that it hopes to take back, but that Russia might well be happy leaving them in territory it may relinquish.

My point is simply that you can find material blaming either side equally easily.

Key facts remain;

Russia invaded Ukraine - and can probably solve the whole war simply by going back.

Russia made these munitions in vast quantities and has a track record of using them.

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, Mungler said:

Simple, if it came from the Kremlin it’s going to be a lie, and then work from there.

Which gives carte blanche to Ukraine to tell as many lies as it likes, knowing full well that they will always be believed over  Russia.

 

3 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

You could also argue that Ukraine is unlikely to spread them in territory that it hopes to take back, but that Russia might well be happy leaving them in territory it may relinquish.

Thats a big bag of assumptions, the fact is , the Russians are there now, surrounded by anti personnel mines, with civilians walking amongst them, are they just going to leave them there till the Ukrainians come back ?

 

5 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Russia invaded Ukraine - and can probably solve the whole war simply by going back.

Ukraine could have likely prevented the whole war from starting if it had adhered to the Minsk agreements.

 

6 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Russia made these munitions in vast quantities and has a track record of using them.

They are a soviet weapon, so were also used by Ukrainian troops doing soviet business.
The fact Ukraine hung onto so many 'illegal' weapons is also a bit embarrassing .
But not as embarrassing as the fact that the Russkies copied it off an American design they used in S E Asia.

Similar weapons[edit]

The PFM-1 is very similar to the BLU-43 landmine used by the US Army in Operation Igloo White in Laos during the Vietnam War.^[17][3] According to a U.S. military document, the Soviet military created PFM-1 after reverse-engineering BLU-43.^[18]

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Thats a big bag of assumptions, the fact is , the Russians are there now, surrounded by anti personnel mines, with civilians walking amongst them, are they just going to leave them there till the Ukrainians come back ?

All these things are 'assumptions' based on reports - which as I have said can be found in abundance from almost any viewpoint you care to take.  It is an 'assumption' that they are even there at all - The Russians may simply be showing a few from their own stores.  No one knows.

 

4 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

But not as embarrassing as the fact that the Russkies copied it off an American design

A very large amount of the worlds current weaponry has been copied - much of it from the Americans.

Russia is the aggressor and invader.  Russia needs to withdraw if peace is to be achieved.  Even IF the Russians occupied the whole of Ukraine - it will be just like Russia (and America and allies) in Afghanistan.  They will never be able to stop the ongoing resistance - and never be able to have a peaceful 'Russian satellite state' or whatever they want.  It will just be a vast ongoing drain on lives and resources.  Putin needs to see this for what it is - a failure by Russia.  How he saves face out of this is his problem - and one which to which I can't see any easy answer for him.

[Rewulf]

3 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

The Russians may simply be showing a few from their own stores.  No one knows.

Nothing is impossible, but I think youre beginning to understand the point of information warfare.
Once you have made the opposing force appear to never tell the truth, there is only one truth , one narrative, yours.

 

12 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Putin needs to see this for what it is - a failure by Russia.  How he saves face out of this is his problem - and one which to which I can't see any easy answer for him.

Agreed.
This isnt winnable for Russia , the only problem is they cant be seen to let Ukraine 'win' either.
Usually in this situation (attrition) an exit strategy is negotiated by both parties and often a third, but there is so much money being made, by so much meddling, its impossible.
As Ive said, there are too many powerful interests that want this to continue, and thats no conspiracy theory.

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, Rewulf said:

thats no conspiracy theory

No, it's utter rubbish

[Rewulf]

39 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

No, it's utter rubbish

Of course it is , the US have admitted its policy 😆

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/25/russia-weakedend-lloyd-austin-ukraine

Reiterated here too (its long but interesting)

https://www.state.gov/briefings-foreign-press-centers/us-policy-on-russia-ukraine-europe

[Mungler]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Which gives carte blanche to Ukraine to tell as many lies as it likes, knowing full well that they will always be believed over  Russia.

Ah but that doesn’t alter the fact that anything and everything ever issued by the Kremlin is a massive whopper.

Salisbury poisonings, Alexander Litvenenko, not amassing troops to invade Ukraine etc etc the list is endless.

Start with ‘if it came from the Kremlin, it’s a massive porky’ and you can’t go wrong or be disappointed. 

Oh and the ‘shoulda coulda woulda’ that Ukraine ought to have done to avoid being invaded by Russia is utterly and genuinely delusional.

.

 

Edited August 1, 2022 by Mungler

[Gordon R]

Quote

Believe it or not, I'm completely unbiased,

Rewulf, some of what you has has merit, but I disagree with about 95% of your posts. It's a free country. However, I think your quote above was a step way too far. it made me smile.

[JohnfromUK]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

that want this to continue, and thats no conspiracy theory.

The West wants to see peace as stated above - by Russia withdrawing from Ukraine.  That is NOT saying they want conflict to continue - they want peace - but on terms that take things back to pre the Feb 22 invasion (you may prefer to call it "special military operation" - to me it was an invasion).  Russia is (allegedly) already weakened (note that the Guardian can't even spell weakened correctly in the hyperlink!), but Russia will always be a nuclear power with a capability for "mutually assured destruction".  It's how the east west power balance works.

The gas /food/oil/iron and steel and all the other shortage crises that are due to the conflict in Ukraine is NOT what the West wants.  However - the reduction in dependency on Russian energy and particularly gas (as led largely by Germany) will be a bonus for the West

Edited August 1, 2022 by JohnfromUK

[Rewulf]

26 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Rewulf, some of what you has has merit, but I disagree with about 95% of your posts. It's a free country. However, I think your quote above was a step way too far. it made me smile.

If we all agreed with each other, no one would post in Off Topic 

When I say 'unbiased' , I mean it though , Ive no affinity with Russia, or Ukraine, they are both ex soviet bloc, with a culture and language so similar as to be virtually indistinguishable .
So why do we 'care' about one , and not the other, they were both once enemies, with hundreds of nukes pointing at us ~? 

The answer is simple , Ukraine has value to our leaders, as a tool to damage Russia, they care less about Ukraine and its people, than they do about the dirt on the bottom of their shoe.
So theyve made us love Ukraine , and continue the hate for Russia.
The only issue is , Russia still has those nukes pointing at us, if it didnt, Im pretty sure NATO would have been rolling in there years ago to bring them 'freedom'

41 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Start with ‘if it came from the Kremlin, it’s a massive porky’ and you can’t go wrong or be disappointed. 

This is what Im talking about, ignore Russia, they are liars thieves and brutes...with nukes.
How can there ever be peace, with that attitude ?

 

36 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

The West wants to see peace as stated above - by Russia withdrawing from Ukraine.  That is NOT saying they want conflict to continue - they want peace - but on terms that take things back to pre the Feb 22 invasion

Do they really ? 
So Zelensky and NATO want peace sooo badly, that theyve laid down the starting terms for any ceasefire or negotiation with the one demand they know Russia wont , or cant agree to ?

39 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

(you may prefer to call it "special military operation" - to me it was an invasion).

Why would you say that ?
You can go back to any point in this thread, and show me where Ive used that term for the invasion/war/conflict, and you will not find it, so leave it out with the insinuation that Im some kind of kremlin mouthpiece.
Its beneath you.

44 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

they want peace - but on terms that take things back to pre the Feb 22 invasion

Youll also find they want Crimea back as a term of ceasefire.

[Mungler]

12 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

This is what Im talking about, ignore Russia, they are liars thieves and brutes...with nukes.
How can there ever be peace, with that attitude ?

There can’t be peace until Russia withdraws, and so in the meantime…

Needless to say, if Russia pops the tanks in reverse and hops back over the border, well whatever outcome, things will get better for Russia much quicker than right now.