Ukrainian gives citizens the right to bear arms.

[NoBodyImportant]

1 hour ago, Houseplant said:

I'm not sure how true, or at least widespread this is. I'm not saying it's not true, just hard to get the real facts as an outsider. The current Ukrainian president is a native Russian speaker. 

Look it’s up, I believe they banned Russian households from have more then 10 books in the Russian language also.  I don’t  know what all they did but it was pretty messed up.  You just don’t hear about it because Ukraines feed money to politicians through Its state ran gas companies, Biden’s son, mitt Romney’s son, Nancy peloskis son all work as avdvisers making millons a year. 

On December 30, 2016, President Petro Poroshenko of Ukraine signed into law a decree that restricts import of books into Ukraine from Russia.^[1]

According to the law, a person can bring at most 10 Russian books without a permit. Unauthorized distribution of books from Russia is under a penalty.^[1]

Ukrainians couldn’t kill them out right so they attacked their culture, outlawed the language, practices. Until they voted for independence then they started killing them outright. 

[NoBodyImportant]

The US was giving billions of dollars in aid.  The Ukrainian corruption ate most of it.  The little that trickled down to the poor had to be applied for in guess what language? Hint: not Russian 

[oowee]

10 hours ago, Houseplant said:

I'm not sure how true, or at least widespread this is. I'm not saying it's not true, just hard to get the real facts as an outsider. The current Ukrainian president is a native Russian speaker. 

Russian will have been taught in school prior to 1991. My wife has the language. 

[NoBodyImportant]

5 hours ago, oowee said:

Russian will have been taught in school prior to 1991. My wife has the language. 

According to the 1996 law, any ethnic minority with a population in the operating region of more then %10 the schools would offer classes in that language.  This is a carry over from the Soviet Empire.  But between 2014-2018 a series of laws were passed to change that.  This is all from a Russian guy I used to work with.  He walked away from his business and fled to the USA shortly round 2015 because he said he recognized a upcoming genocide when he sees it.  But it the past few days I have looked into the stuff he was saying and every bit of seems to be true.  

[bluesj]

4 hours ago, NoBodyImportant said:

According to the 1996 law, any ethnic minority with a population in the operating region of more then %10 the schools would offer classes in that language.  This is a carry over from the Soviet Empire.  But between 2014-2018 a series of laws were passed to change that.  This is all from a Russian guy I used to work with.  He walked away from his business and fled to the USA shortly round 2015 because he said he recognized a upcoming genocide when he sees it.  But it the past few days I have looked into the stuff he was saying and every bit of seems to be true.  

And if you go back in history a bit more you see that you find Russia remove/killed native Ukrainians  and replaced them with Russians, and i'm sure if you go further back it could be the other way round.

 

[ordnance]

2 hours ago, bluesj said:

And if you go back in history a bit more you see that you find Russia remove/killed native Ukrainians  and replaced them with Russians, and i'm sure if you go further back it could be the other way round.

 

+ 1 You don't have to go to far back. 

Quote ( 

During the twentieth century, colossal human tragedies occurred — among them the Holodomor, the Holocaust, the Srebernica Genocide, the Rwandan Genocide and the genocide of the Yazidis. Our focus here will be the study of a genocide known as “The Ho­lodomor,” a word that in the Ukrainian language means “death inflicted by starvation”.

Millions of men, women and children were slowly starved to death in the early 1930s through the imple­mentation of a policy to take away the food from the largest segment of the Ukrainian nation, the farmers. The term “Holodomor” is often used to encompass the starvation of the farmers as well as a broader assault on the Ukrainian nation, which included an attack on the cultural, religious and political leadership of Ukraine, most of which was at that time under Soviet rule. Thus, the largest non-Russian ethnic group with­in the Soviet Union, the Ukrainians, were decimated, putting an end to their aspirations for autonomy and independence for decades.

 

Quote

This is all from a Russian guy I used to work with.  He walked away from his business and fled to the USA shortly round 2015 because he said he recognized a upcoming genocide when he sees it. 

There is a big jump from a book limit to genocide, if you seriously think Putin cares about the Russians in Ukraine and that's what this is all about 

 

Edited February 28, 2022 by ordnance

[Agriv8]

A large number of Ukrainians still believe they are Russian. 
 

a huge problem is that Ukrainian has switched to an open democracy but a percentage of its population does not understand or want it ! 
 

the other 1/2 do and voted for a guy to deliver it and the only way he could do that was to get into bed with nato. 
 

I don’t see this ending amicably and fear for loss of life on both sides. But I guess Ukrainians feel that they have something worth fighting for.

Fingers crossed for diplomatic solution!

Agriv8

[Mice!]

35 minutes ago, ordnance said:

Millions of men, women and children were slowly starved to death in the early 1930s through the imple­mentation of a policy to take away the food from the largest segment of the Ukrainian nation, the farmers

And yet I'd never heard of it, I doubt many my age have, 40s, we've all heard of the Holocaust but that's clearly just as bad.

[oowee]

35 minutes ago, Agriv8 said:

A large number of Ukrainians still believe they are Russian. 
 

a huge problem is that Ukrainian has switched to an open democracy but a percentage of its population does not understand or want it ! 
 

the other 1/2 do and voted for a guy to deliver it and the only way he could do that was to get into bed with nato. 
 

I don’t see this ending amicably and fear for loss of life on both sides. But I guess Ukrainians feel that they have something worth fighting for.

Fingers crossed for diplomatic solution!

Agriv8

So says Putin. Also, huge numbers of Slovak speakers, Greeks, et al. 

There are far more that believe they are Ukrainian even if born Russian.

We should look to see how else we can help them starting with a human policy on refugees.

Edited February 28, 2022 by oowee

[NoBodyImportant]

3 hours ago, bluesj said:

And if you go back in history a bit more you see that you find Russia remove/killed native Ukrainians  and replaced them with Russians, and i'm sure if you go further back it could be the other way round.

 

 

1 hour ago, ordnance said:

+ 1 You don't have to go to far back. 

Quote ( 

During the twentieth century, colossal human tragedies occurred — among them the Holodomor, the Holocaust, the Srebernica Genocide, the Rwandan Genocide and the genocide of the Yazidis. Our focus here will be the study of a genocide known as “The Ho­lodomor,” a word that in the Ukrainian language means “death inflicted by starvation”.

Millions of men, women and children were slowly starved to death in the early 1930s through the imple­mentation of a policy to take away the food from the largest segment of the Ukrainian nation, the farmers. The term “Holodomor” is often used to encompass the starvation of the farmers as well as a broader assault on the Ukrainian nation, which included an attack on the cultural, religious and political leadership of Ukraine, most of which was at that time under Soviet rule. Thus, the largest non-Russian ethnic group with­in the Soviet Union, the Ukrainians, were decimated, putting an end to their aspirations for autonomy and independence for decades.

 

There is a big jump from a book limit to genocide, if you seriously think Putin cares about the Russians in Ukraine and that's what this is all about 

 

I am by no means taking Putins side.  In fact I hope Ukrainians win.  But the modern Ukrainian government isn’t 100% right.  All I’m saying.  

3 hours ago, bluesj said:

And if you go back in history a bit more you see that you find Russia remove/killed native Ukrainians  and replaced them with Russians, and i'm sure if you go further back it could be the other way round.

 

 

1 hour ago, ordnance said:

+ 1 You don't have to go to far back. 

Quote ( 

During the twentieth century, colossal human tragedies occurred — among them the Holodomor, the Holocaust, the Srebernica Genocide, the Rwandan Genocide and the genocide of the Yazidis. Our focus here will be the study of a genocide known as “The Ho­lodomor,” a word that in the Ukrainian language means “death inflicted by starvation”.

Millions of men, women and children were slowly starved to death in the early 1930s through the imple­mentation of a policy to take away the food from the largest segment of the Ukrainian nation, the farmers. The term “Holodomor” is often used to encompass the starvation of the farmers as well as a broader assault on the Ukrainian nation, which included an attack on the cultural, religious and political leadership of Ukraine, most of which was at that time under Soviet rule. Thus, the largest non-Russian ethnic group with­in the Soviet Union, the Ukrainians, were decimated, putting an end to their aspirations for autonomy and independence for decades.

 

There is a big jump from a book limit to genocide, if you seriously think Putin cares about the Russians in Ukraine and that's what this is all about 

 

I am by no means taking Putins side.  In fact I hope Ukrainians win.  But the modern Ukrainian government isn’t 100% right.  All I’m saying.  But if you have 75% of the population of Donetsk and Luhansk that wants independence the I think that is a right they have.    It may be the American spirit in me but the preamble of our Declaration of Independence sums my thoughts up perfectly. 

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

 

Edited February 28, 2022 by NoBodyImportant

[steve1066]

41 minutes ago, NoBodyImportant said:

 

I am by no means taking Putins side.  In fact I hope Ukrainians win.  But the modern Ukrainian government isn’t 100% right.  All I’m saying.  

 

I am by no means taking Putins side.  In fact I hope Ukrainians win.  But the modern Ukrainian government isn’t 100% right.  All I’m saying.  But if you have 75% of the population of Donetsk and Luhansk that wants independence the I think that is a right they have.    It may be the American spirit in me but the preamble of our Declaration of Independence sums my thoughts up perfectly. 

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

 

I can’t wait for the comments on this one 😂😂😂

[oowee]

1 hour ago, Agriv8 said:

A large number of Ukrainians still believe they are Russian. 
 

a huge problem is that Ukrainian has switched to an open democracy but a percentage of its population does not understand or want it ! 
 

the other 1/2 do and voted for a guy to deliver it and the only way he could do that was to get into bed with nato. 
 

I don’t see this ending amicably and fear for loss of life on both sides. But I guess Ukrainians feel that they have something worth fighting for.

Fingers crossed for diplomatic solution!

Agriv8

So says Putin. Also, huge numbers of Slovak speakers, Greeks, et al. 

There are far more that believe they are Ukrainian even if born Russian.

Just read this 

“We had to make and use Molotov cocktails then,” he said, vowing to do “everything we can to help win this war.”

One of the brewery’s favorite brews is called “Putin khuylo” — which roughly translates to “Putin is a d–khead.”

[Mice!]

13 minutes ago, steve1066 said:

I can’t wait for the comments on this one 😂😂😂

Everyone is making popcorn,  or re reading it, all I could think reading it was what about the American Indians?

[MirokuMK70]

9 minutes ago, Mice! said:

Everyone is making popcorn,  or re reading it, all I could think reading it was what about the American Indians?

Or the slaves that most signatories of the constitution owned...

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Good to see the Ukrainian Police turning back males trying to run away from their obligation to defend their country.

[Newbie to this]

3 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Good to see the Ukrainian Police turning back males trying to run away from their obligation to defend their country.

hear, hear

[oldypigeonpopper]

Hello, all the AK 47s and other weapons give to Ukraine will not not stop missile bombs coming from Russia and destroying cities  killing men woman and children , 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

5 minutes ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, all the AK 47s and other weapons give to Ukraine will not not stop missile bombs coming from Russia and destroying cities  killing men woman and children

Are the Ukrainians wrong to defend their country?

[oldypigeonpopper]

Just now, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Are the Ukrainians wrong to defend their country?

Hello, no but what arms Ukraine have will not stop Putin's attack with Air and ground missiles, 

[Scully]

On 28/02/2022 at 21:29, NoBodyImportant said:

 

I am by no means taking Putins side.  In fact I hope Ukrainians win.  But the modern Ukrainian government isn’t 100% right.  All I’m saying.  

 

I am by no means taking Putins side.  In fact I hope Ukrainians win.  But the modern Ukrainian government isn’t 100% right.  All I’m saying.  But if you have 75% of the population of Donetsk and Luhansk that wants independence the I think that is a right they have.    It may be the American spirit in me but the preamble of our Declaration of Independence sums my thoughts up perfectly. 

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

 

And how does any of that equate to the treatment of the indigenous American tribes? 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

10 minutes ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, no but what arms Ukraine have will not stop Putin's attack with Air and ground missiles, 

So should they just capitulate or seek extra weapons to fight on?

[Walker570]

On 27/02/2022 at 21:05, NoBodyImportant said:

 

True, but the Ukrainian government was in the wrong also.
Playing Devils Advocate Here:  

They undermined their own constitution  to discriminate against ethnic Russians.  They went as far as banning Russian language in government and schools even against the 1996 constitution.  From 2014-2018 schools above 5grade were banned from speaking Russian, courtrooms, even driving test were administered in Ukrainian.  The Ukrainian made life so miserable for the ethnic Russians they voted to leave.   Then the Ukrainian government attacked them and bomb their cities.  You have to remember that these Russians aren’t immigrates. How would you feel if England was giving to France in the break up of the EU.  And French was the new language.  Your school in your 99% English speaking town can only teach in French, the court in your English speaking town would be held in French, you had to take driving test in French. Then you vote to leave, so France starts bombing your towns?  That being said I really don’t like Putin so screw him.  

Agree, but the crazy Putin is now indscriminately killing every civilian in the area with cluster bombs etc regardless of their origins.  We are in a very dangerous place at the moment and I cannot honestly see a way out.

[oldypigeonpopper]

Hello, well it is Ukraine so that should be the first language 

[Bobba]

On 28/02/2022 at 22:27, Mice! said:

Everyone is making popcorn,  or re reading it, all I could think reading it was what about the American Indians?

 

31 minutes ago, Scully said:

And how does any of that equate to the treatment of the indigenous American tribes? 

“Bury my heart at wounded knee” by Dee Brown. An interesting read. This book expresses details of the history of American expansionism. 

[oldypigeonpopper]

35 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

So should they just capitulate or seek extra weapons to fight on?

Hello, no I think every country that can should stand up against Putin , just because Ukraine is not in NATO or the EU so we sit back a let Russia take over another country again and murder innocent men, women and children, Ukraine did not want a War, Estonia has an estimated 350,000 Russian citizens will Putin invade them 

Edited March 2, 2022 by oldypigeonpopper