I was going to lie down on the runway to stop the Rwanda deportations...

[discobob]

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

make it just a tad difficult to collect your ID, keep your ID when you've either lost everything (there's a clue there) or left you home hurriedly.

They didn't lose their expensive trainers, iPhones etc... though??

[Rewulf]

7 minutes ago, discobob said:

They didn't lose their expensive trainers, iPhones etc... though??

Or leave their wallet at home , with enough money to pay traffickers .

I often wonder how they manage it, they have left 'war and persecution' yet seem to have little issue keeping their smartphone running , or parting with thousands of stolen hard earned cash to jump in the dinghy.

Interestingly , the UNCHR definition of asylum seeker leaves no provision for bogus asylum seeker, or illegal immigrant, they state quite clearly that these terms are not used or recognised.
There are failed asylum seekers, and there are migrants according to them.
So , by that definition, it doesnt matter how they enter the country , or what fraudulent means they use to pursue their asylum claim, they have done nothing illegal, and are not criminals.
This is the stick we are beaten with, and no its not just the UK, its a large part of Europe too.

https://www.unhcr.org/uk/asylum-in-the-uk.html#:~:text=The top nationalities of people,%2C and Turkish (13%2C845).

[discobob]

31 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I often wonder how they manage it, they have left 'war and persecution'

aye - you would have thought that their banks wouldn't have been accessible if it was so bad over there - or did they come across Europe carrying a plastic bag full of money???

[oowee]

40 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Or leave their wallet at home , with enough money to pay traffickers .

I often wonder how they manage it, they have left 'war and persecution' yet seem to have little issue keeping their smartphone running , or parting with thousands of stolen hard earned cash to jump in the dinghy.

Interestingly , the UNCHR definition of asylum seeker leaves no provision for bogus asylum seeker, or illegal immigrant, they state quite clearly that these terms are not used or recognised.
There are failed asylum seekers, and there are migrants according to them.
So , by that definition, it doesnt matter how they enter the country , or what fraudulent means they use to pursue their asylum claim, they have done nothing illegal, and are not criminals.
This is the stick we are beaten with, and no its not just the UK, its a large part of Europe too.

https://www.unhcr.org/uk/asylum-in-the-uk.html#:~:text=The top nationalities of people,%2C and Turkish (13%2C845).

I am surprised at the amount of cash that is involved and that so many have access to so much. 

7 minutes ago, discobob said:

aye - you would have thought that their banks wouldn't have been accessible if it was so bad over there - or did they come across Europe carrying a plastic bag full of money???

It's not going to be cash from Syria and the like I can only imagine pounds dollars or Euro. 

I was surprised to see see Turkey up there with 13845 applications for asylum to the EU (following the 2016 coup attempt?).  Turkey is the worlds number one recipient of migrants with 3.9m (mostly from Syria). Puts the paltry few thousand that have come here into perspective. 

Turkiye claims a deportation rate of 50% plus. We should send PP to have a look. 

Edited June 17, 2022 by oowee

[discobob]

@oowee No problem with genuine refugees- you saw some of them who got stuck in between the borders a few months ago on the telly - you could tell the ones - Families or Mums/Dads with their kids.... And I believe we don't see a lot of them because they are truly thankful for where they land if you get my drift.

Whereas a lot of what we do get via the channel are predominantly economic

There ones we don't see (like the ones in the back of the lorry a few years ago) are economic slaves - at least for a good number of years - to pay off the costs in the likes of nail bar etc....

 

Edit: Also, mightily impressed by what you are doing to help people from Ukraine 👍

Edited June 17, 2022 by discobob

[Gordon R]

Quote

Puts the paltry few thousand that have come here into perspective. 

Surely a typo. Don't you mean the 5 million plus?

[derbyduck]

is it just me or does anyone else think this march through Europe is being orchestrated by a bigger quest than just getting to these Sceptred Isles ? how can a hoard of young men cross through several countries feed and clothe themselves and arrive on our shores after paying £1000s without being robbed,  unless they are being backed by a very wealthy instituation or Religion 

[London Best]

1 hour ago, derbyduck said:

is it just me or does anyone else think this march through Europe is being orchestrated by a bigger quest than just getting to these Sceptred Isles ? how can a hoard of young men cross through several countries feed and clothe themselves and arrive on our shores after paying £1000s without being robbed,  unless they are being backed by a very wealthy instituation or Religion 

Exactly! It has long been my belief that this is all funded by a certain religion to take over this country by the back door.

[johnphilip]

22 minutes ago, London Best said:

Exactly! It has long been my belief that this is all funded by a certain religion to take over this country by the back door.

Yes I belive there rubber dinghies are infact  Trojan Horses. a masterplan to take over 

 

[12gauge82]

On 16/06/2022 at 18:42, oowee said:

These people? Who are 'these people'? I am sure there may be some migrants claiming refugee status that would want to dispose of documentation that might prove otherwise but what does it say about us to label all refugees the same? 

Are you asking about all refugees? Surely what ID a person has depends upon their circumstances? 

Unfortunately it's using language such as 'these people' that starts the process of demonising and plays directly into the hands of the extremist. 

 

Be honest Oowee, who are these extremists you speak of, I genuinely have never met one, obviously they are out there, but it's a tiny minority, virtually non exsitant votes for extremist right wing partys proves that. 

The overwhelming majority of uk citizens are extremely tolerant decent people, just look how many stepped forwards to offer complete strangers to stay in their own homes, with their own families just like you have (which by the way is an awesome thing to do, you have my respect for that). 

But we cannot continue to take these economic migrants without continuing to seriously affect our society, we all know many of the issues it has caused already and we only need to look at parts of Sweden or even some of the countries these people have come from to have a view of the issues that will occur and what areas of the UK will become like if we allow it to continue. 

[Vince Green]

17 hours ago, discobob said:

They didn't lose their expensive trainers, iPhones etc... though??

Plus the money to pay the people smugglers

[oowee]

1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said:

Be honest Oowee, who are these extremists you speak of, I genuinely have never met one, obviously they are out there, but it's a tiny minority, virtually non exsitant votes for extremist right wing partys proves that. 

The overwhelming majority of uk citizens are extremely tolerant decent people, just look how many stepped forwards to offer complete strangers to stay in their own homes, with their own families just like you have (which by the way is an awesome thing to do, you have my respect for that). 

But we cannot continue to take these economic migrants without continuing to seriously affect our society, we all know many of the issues it has caused already and we only need to look at parts of Sweden or even some of the countries these people have come from to have a view of the issues that will occur and what areas of the UK will become like if we allow it to continue. 

The extremists disguised as the voice of the people like Farage that deliberately whip up unobjective dislike and mistrust of migrants. The vote for Brexit was often driven by an anti migration motive that was simply not based on reality.  Unfortunately our current government thrives off the back of an anti immigration sentiment. A sentiment that does not allow them to tackle the problem as many voters would see it as 'going soft. A hard line attitude is easier to translate into votes. Even a blind man can see the nonsense of Rwanda as a solution, but it wins votes and deflects from reality.

I fully accept that the majority would not want to support extremist views but often the consensus view of the 'problem' is not based on fact. 

The numbers are infinitesimally small compared to our population. You cannot dilute an ocean with a tea spoon.

The issues and problems caused by a few are reflected on the many.

Settlement could be vastly improved by having a policy of settlement and integration with additional resources targeted to ease the process. 

Some decent resources targeted to properly process applicants would pay dividends. 

We are desperately short of workers if we want to maintain growth based on low skills.

[chesterse]

What we are talking about is illegal immigrants.

We are only a small island and basically we have too many people already.

The roads are jammed up with traffic. The NHS is being overrun. There is a massive shortage of housing. Social services are really struggling especially with the elderly and mentally ill.

We need to get the people who are already here to fill the job vacancies.

Controlled legal immigration is fair enough but illegal immigration is not.

 

[enfieldspares]

The "no passport" game. I've got the t-shirt, as it were, not me personally but I'll explain how it works and why it is done.

If a person is detained by the authorities of a country, let's call it X, that does not wish them to be on that country it will (if it believes them to have no lawful right of residency) and they have no ID to say which nationality they are it will either detain them or bail them and give them a "Notice to Quit".

Country X will at that time try to establish which country they are from. Bit if they've no ID the person can claim to be from anywhere. Yes they may be fingerprinted but that will only serve to help the authorities of country X identify them as having already come to the authorities attention. It doesn't show their true nationality.

Notice to Quit:

Many countries usually give a period of grace often twenty-eight days to leave after which a criminal offence is committed if that person is still in that country that they have no residency rights. If they are still at large after that date and the authorities encounter them again they may this time be detained.

But as they've no ID where does country X deport them to? This is where the "lost passport" claim comes into play. There are certain countries that are on a black list where people are never deported to as those countries are deemed unsafe. At one time in the early 2000s one of those was Sierra Leone. And...yes...Rwanda!

Because of the brutal civil war most EU nations would not deport people to Sierra Leone or Rwanda. Effectively you were almost sending someone to certain death. Therefore many would claim to be from there. So that meant that the authorities would simply issue another Notice to Quit.

Thanks to Sir Tony Blair (this is true he's regarded as a hero there) there is no longer civil war in Sierre Leone. But there are still unsafe countries. So if you no ID you claim to be from one fo those current unsafe countries and you don't get deported.

So what is country X suspects that actrually you are a national of country Y or Z and that country Y or Z is a safe country. Well if you ARE a national of those with a valid ID that's easy. It's the next 'plane out. But if you've no ID then what?

The authorities of country X can't deport to country Y or Z someone who isn't a national of that country. That's obvious. Why should Y or Z accept someone deported from country X who is not one of their nationals.

So how does country X prove that the potential deportee is actually a national of country? They approach the Embassy (in country X) of that nation and ask if that deportee is one of their nationals and will that Embassy now provide ID for them.

The Embassy then either obliges or doesn't oblige. If it doesn't OR IF THERE IS NO EMBASSY BECAUSE THAT COUNTRY HAS NO LEGITIMATE GOVERNMENT WITH AN EMBASSY - THUS THE SIERRA LEONE EXAMPLE - then no ID equals no deportation is possible.

So the "lost passport" is used by an economic migrant to stop the authorities deporting them. A genuine refugee will however be usually very very eager to show ID so as to show that they are indeed fleeing from an unsafe country.

So "lost passport" is usually in fact evidence of an economic migrant.

If a TRUE refugee the person will themselves WANT to show ID to the authorities of country X to prove that they are genuine. This as below:

Which is why most refugees from Zimbabwe would indeed always show their ID or try to have some form of legitimate document of identity as it would establish in the 1990s that they were Ndebele and, yes, subject to genocide under Robert Mugabe.

Which is why there are many genuine Zimbabwean refugees from the 1990s here in the UK.

Edited June 18, 2022 by enfieldspares

[Scully]

4 hours ago, oowee said:

The extremists disguised as the voice of the people like Farage that deliberately whip up unobjective dislike and mistrust of migrants. The vote for Brexit was often driven by an anti migration motive that was simply not based on reality.  Unfortunately our current government thrives off the back of an anti immigration sentiment. A sentiment that does not allow them to tackle the problem as many voters would see it as 'going soft. A hard line attitude is easier to translate into votes. Even a blind man can see the nonsense of Rwanda as a solution, but it wins votes and deflects from reality.

I fully accept that the majority would not want to support extremist views but often the consensus view of the 'problem' is not based on fact. 

The numbers are infinitesimally small compared to our population. You cannot dilute an ocean with a tea spoon.

The issues and problems caused by a few are reflected on the many.

Settlement could be vastly improved by having a policy of settlement and integration with additional resources targeted to ease the process. 

Some decent resources targeted to properly process applicants would pay dividends. 

We are desperately short of workers if we want to maintain growth based on low skills.

Oh pleeeaaasse! Farage an extremist!? 
He isn’t even in the same league as extremists! 

[12gauge82]

4 minutes ago, Scully said:

Oh pleeeaaasse! Farage an extremist!? 
He isn’t even in the same league as extremists! 

+1

why exactly do people believe migrants should have automatic right to come to the UK and settle. This country, the freedoms we now enjoy and what we have, has been hard fought for and paid for in blood in some cases by our forefathers. Just why exactly should we give all that away to people whos families or themselves haven't made the sacrifice or invested to enjoy it. 

Like the vast majority in the UK I have no issue helping those that need it, or those our society deems worthy, but economic migrants fit neither of those definitions and I'll take no lessons from the likes of the EU, or their courts, who change the application of the human rights act to suit themselves. 

[oowee]

11 minutes ago, Scully said:

Oh pleeeaaasse! Farage an extremist!? 
He isn’t even in the same league as extremists! 

 

13 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

+1

why exactly do people believe migrants should have automatic right to come to the UK and settle. This country, the freedoms we now enjoy and what we have, has been hard fought for and paid for in blood in some cases by our forefathers. Just why exactly should we give all that away to people whos families or themselves haven't made the sacrifice or invested to enjoy it. 

Like the vast majority in the UK I have no issue helping those that need it, or those our society deems worthy, but economic migrants fit neither of those definitions and I'll take no lessons from the likes of the EU, or their courts, who change the application of the human rights act to suit themselves. 

Lots of unfounded rhetoric designed to whip up fear and anxiety such as :-

Migration will imperil the future of our civilisation. 

Believes in the New World Order theory.

Breaking point poster.

Concerned at living next door to a romanian.

100000 migrants could cross the channel 

Parts of britain are like a foreign land. 

Proposing to end multiculturalism in UK.

EU migrants penniless ill educated thieves and opportunists.

Sounds pretty extreme to me when it encourages hatred. Beliefs that are incompatible with multi cultural civilisation. Rather like Trump you could say.

Try this conclusion from a study of Farage 'language and gesture' from Lancaster and Birmingham University,

Our analysis, thus, points to gesture as a significant semiotic resource relied on in discursive constructions of prejudice and in the legitimation of discriminatory action. CDA identifies a range of specific rhetorical moves fundamental to the communication of prejudice and the legitimation of discrimination and exclusion, including denial, othering, proximisation and quantification.

ref https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/09579265211048560

[Rewulf]

5 hours ago, oowee said:

The vote for Brexit was often driven by an anti migration motive that was simply not based on reality. 

The 'reality' was , that people saw net migration go through the roof since 2000, 5, 6 , 7 million , whos knows the real figure ?
The '3  million movement ' to recognise and integrate the hordes of Easter Europeans after Brexit, had over 5 million applications ! And thats just the EU migrants.
All this was made possible by EU laws on free movement, so to say there is some kind of fantasy issue over Brexit and immigration is easy when you dont live in a town whos predominant language is Polish.

5 hours ago, oowee said:

The numbers are infinitesimally small compared to our population. You cannot dilute an ocean with a tea spoon.

They are small at the moment, but as with most things, when a successful access point is established, the flood comes.

5 hours ago, oowee said:

We are desperately short of workers if we want to maintain growth based on low skills.

There are plenty of workers here , but no one gives them the reason to work, so they dont.

To think that we need more skill less layabouts claiming benefits so badly , we need to import them from other countries, is a ridiculous idea, driven by bonkers leftie ideology.

2 minutes ago, oowee said:

100000 migrants could cross the channel 

50000 so far in small boats.

[12gauge82]

58 minutes ago, oowee said:

 

Lots of unfounded rhetoric designed to whip up fear and anxiety such as :-

Migration will imperil the future of our civilisation. 

Believes in the New World Order theory.

Breaking point poster.

Concerned at living next door to a romanian.

100000 migrants could cross the channel 

Parts of britain are like a foreign land. 

Proposing to end multiculturalism in UK.

EU migrants penniless ill educated thieves and opportunists.

Sounds pretty extreme to me when it encourages hatred. Beliefs that are incompatible with multi cultural civilisation. Rather like Trump you could say.

Try this conclusion from a study of Farage 'language and gesture' from Lancaster and Birmingham University,

Our analysis, thus, points to gesture as a significant semiotic resource relied on in discursive constructions of prejudice and in the legitimation of discriminatory action. CDA identifies a range of specific rhetorical moves fundamental to the communication of prejudice and the legitimation of discrimination and exclusion, including denial, othering, proximisation and quantification.

ref https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/09579265211048560

I'll agree its a bit hyperbolic if those are direct quotes, but then most politicians are guilty of that. The point is, uncontrollable migration will be bad for the UK and the working class, the degree being directly linked to the number. 

It needs controlling, the people don't want it and it has already caused many issues as highlighted in my earlier post and fighting against it is counter intuitive, if we continue to ignore what this countrys people want, it could eventually lead to a party being elected out of frustration that would make someone like Farage look like a left wing extremist and no one wants that. 

[oowee]

2 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I'll agree its a bit hyperbolic if those are direct quotes, but then most politicians are guilty of that. The point is, uncontrollable migration will be bad for the UK and the working class, the degree being directly linked to the number. 

It needs controlling, the people don't want it and it has already caused many issues as highlighted in my earlier post and fighting against it is counter intuitive, if we continue to ignore what this countrys people want, it could eventually lead to a party being elected out of frustration that would make someone like Farage look like a left wing extremist and no one wants that. 

I would agree. There is though a balance on what the people want. Democracy requires minority rights as much as it requires majority rule. 

To control it we need a process of management. What we will allow what we wont allow. It has to be sufficiently resourced so that those allowed can come here. It has to be clear what will happen with those that come illegally.  There has to be resources to assist those we want to settle. 

Above all it must be evidence based, clearly set out and a reasoned process. 

[Scully]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

 

Lots of unfounded rhetoric designed to whip up fear and anxiety such as :-

Migration will imperil the future of our civilisation. 

Believes in the New World Order theory.

Breaking point poster.

Concerned at living next door to a romanian.

100000 migrants could cross the channel 

Parts of britain are like a foreign land. 

Proposing to end multiculturalism in UK.

EU migrants penniless ill educated thieves and opportunists.

Sounds pretty extreme to me when it encourages hatred. Beliefs that are incompatible with multi cultural civilisation. Rather like Trump you could say.

Try this conclusion from a study of Farage 'language and gesture' from Lancaster and Birmingham University,

Our analysis, thus, points to gesture as a significant semiotic resource relied on in discursive constructions of prejudice and in the legitimation of discriminatory action. CDA identifies a range of specific rhetorical moves fundamental to the communication of prejudice and the legitimation of discrimination and exclusion, including denial, othering, proximisation and quantification.

ref https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/09579265211048560

Great stuff! We all see what we want to see, based on our own personal preferences! 😀
Personally, I see tens of thousands of immigrants entering the country illegally, and it has to stop.
Is all of his rhetoric ‘unfounded’?

 

[oowee]

10 minutes ago, Scully said:

Great stuff! We all see what we want to see, based on our own personal preferences! 😀
Personally, I see tens of thousands of immigrants entering the country illegally, and it has to stop.
Is all of his rhetoric ‘unfounded’?

 

We all see what we are conditioned to see. Illegal immigration should stop its illegal. 

Rwanda, tags and bleating on about numbers is the last way to stop it. The current approach is tackling the wrong end of the telescope. 

[clangerman]

16 minutes ago, oowee said:

We all see what we are conditioned to see. Illegal immigration should stop its illegal. 

Rwanda, tags and bleating on about numbers is the last way to stop it. The current approach is tackling the wrong end of the telescope. 

so because we can spot you making excuses for us to be carrying migrants suit cases up the beach rather than put our own first it makes us conditioned think that comes more under smart! 

[Scully]

46 minutes ago, oowee said:

We all see what we are conditioned to see. Illegal immigration should stop its illegal. 

Rwanda, tags and bleating on about numbers is the last way to stop it. The current approach is tackling the wrong end of the telescope. 

Am I conditioned to see illegal immigrants landing on our shores, or do illegal immigrants actually land on our shores? 
If we can’t stop them coming then they have to go somewhere for processing, and as they’re guilty of an illegal act then I see no harm in tagging them until that happens. 
 

[oowee]

43 minutes ago, Scully said:

Am I conditioned to see illegal immigrants landing on our shores, or do illegal immigrants actually land on our shores? 
If we can’t stop them coming then they have to go somewhere for processing, and as they’re guilty of an illegal act then I see no harm in tagging them until that happens. 
 

👍 I can understand how you feel. I can also see why many feel the same way and in desperation look for any remedy. Its a bit like snake oil. It's simply another distraction that will make zero difference.

We have to tackle the root cause not the symptoms.