Lord Botham's shooting party disrupted

[JohnfromUK]

7 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Making it illegal for these thugs to hide their faces after any activity during a demonstration is classed as illegal which in turn would then renders the demonstration itself and all those taking part as breaking the law would be interesting. I know, no chance.

Yes, that is one I would strongly support.  Wearing masks like that is intimidation.

[Minky]

2 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

my worry would be all that would do is turn the public even more against shooting,

It's a bit past the idea of the public supporting shooters.  The day of a couple of old boys wandering along The road with the guns broken over the arm and a crossbar of rabbits going in to the pub and propping the guns up in the corner of the bar are long gone.  The public are terrified of the word gun.  If you go out shooting anywhere near houses or God forbid a school it won't be long before someone will be on the phone about wild shooting at everything.  It's too late.

[mel b3]

  Why doesn't someone take the reg no of the car that the sabs are travelling in , then trace the owner , then take the owner to court for loss of revenue , when the days shooting got abandoned , because of his or her actions . Surely it wouldn't be hard to prove , and a bill for many thousands of pounds might make them think twice.

[JohnfromUK]

23 minutes ago, mel b3 said:

  Why doesn't someone take the reg no of the car that the sabs are travelling in , then trace the owner , then take the owner to court for loss of revenue , when the days shooting got abandoned , because of his or her actions . Surely it wouldn't be hard to prove , and a bill for many thousands of pounds might make them think twice.

Firstly - there is (as far as I know) no 'legal' way to trace the 'registered keeper' of a vehicle unless you are the police, security services, council (or other authorised parties such as parking enforcement). 

Next - you then have to prove that the 'registered keeper' was there and involved. 

Finally, you would have to bring this as a civil case (loss of revenue) and will get no police assistance.

It might be possible, but it would be very expensive, I suspect hard to prove to 'a particular individual', and even if you did - you may find they have no assets to seize or money to claim.  Many of these people will (my guess anyway) have no visible assets so that they can claim their benefits.

Too many pitfalls to be sensible unless someone likes burning ten pound notes.

[Minky]

29 minutes ago, mel b3 said:

  Why doesn't someone take the reg no of the car that the sabs are travelling in , then trace the owner , then take the owner to court for loss of revenue , when the days shooting got abandoned , because of his or her actions . Surely it wouldn't be hard to prove , and a bill for many thousands of pounds might make them think twice.

As above..... Probably false plate e.g. the number of the chief constables wife..  AND even if there were costs the slabs would go on Facebook or something and crowd fund. They need a good beating like a couple of months in hospital.  BUT we can't do it. 

[Stonepark]

It is clear from both these "anti hunting" protests and "green" protests that both hide under the law to threaten, harass, intimidate and cause damage, and it is clear, neither the police or the courts are interested in prosecuting these "crimes" or dealing with repeat offenders by instructing court orders or asbos to deter them.

When the law fails, at some point people will be frustrated enough to take matters into their own hands if that is the only way to stop this.

You cannot defeat the above protests by running away, as every time you do, the people undertaking the protests grow bolder.

[Scully]

27 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Firstly - there is (as far as I know) no 'legal' way to trace the 'registered keeper' of a vehicle unless you are the police, security services, council (or other authorised parties such as parking enforcement). 

Next - you then have to prove that the 'registered keeper' was there and involved. 

Finally, you would have to bring this as a civil case (loss of revenue) and will get no police assistance.

It might be possible, but it would be very expensive, I suspect hard to prove to 'a particular individual', and even if you did - you may find they have no assets to seize or money to claim.  Many of these people will (my guess anyway) have no visible assets so that they can claim their benefits.

Too many pitfalls to be sensible unless someone likes burning ten pound notes.

I can’t help thinking it would be an awful shame if while the sabs were up in the moors, someone let all the air out of their vehicles tyres. That would be a great shame, I hope no one does that. 

[Walker570]

3 hours ago, Penelope said:

What publication was his piece in, then, please?

Daily Telegraph .....is there any other

[Westley]

3 hours ago, Walker570 said:

Don't be silly modern day police wouldn't know what a breach of the peace was they are too busy chasing woke criminality.

Excellent write up by Lord Botham this morning.

My point being is that the aggravated trespass was introduced for just this sort of behaviour, WHY do Police not use it ?  

Just now, Westley said:

My point being is that the aggravated trespass was introduced for just this sort of behaviour, WHY do Police not use it ?  

 

[JohnfromUK]

54 minutes ago, Scully said:

I hope no one does that.

If anyone does, "it must have been the fuel protestors ......"  😇

29 minutes ago, Westley said:

WHY do Police not use it ?

A guess, but possibly because the real decision is down to whether the CPS would proceed with a prosecution.  If they don't the police have wasted their time and possibly get sued for wrongful arrest?  Where there have (as yet) been no test cases, the CPS may be dragging their feet and plod will tend to follow there lead.

[mel b3]

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

Firstly - there is (as far as I know) no 'legal' way to trace the 'registered keeper' of a vehicle unless you are the police, security services, council (or other authorised parties such as parking enforcement). 

Next - you then have to prove that the 'registered keeper' was there and involved. 

Finally, you would have to bring this as a civil case (loss of revenue) and will get no police assistance.

It might be possible, but it would be very expensive, I suspect hard to prove to 'a particular individual', and even if you did - you may find they have no assets to seize or money to claim.  Many of these people will (my guess anyway) have no visible assets so that they can claim their benefits.

Too many pitfalls to be sensible unless someone likes burning ten pound notes.

Their must be a way to trace the reg numbers , and if the vehicle is on false plates , then that is a police matter, and the vehicle can be taken away.

I would imagine the registered keeper would be driving,  and if they aren't driving , they'd need to explain in some way who was using the vehicle ,  and was liable for stopping the shoot , and also liable for compensation.  I would think that video and photographs would be good enough evidence. 

I know nothing of the law , but I would imagine that in a civil court , you wouldn't have a soft xxxxx woke jury , and you'd just have a professional judge , that decides the matter on facts , and not feelings.

I know that the person being sued might have no assets , but surely a civil court could make a judgment that stands until they do have assets.

I'm fully aware that it wouldn't be in any way easy , but the alternatives are . Kicking the xxxx out of them , or , do nothing and just take it up the xxxx off them.

Not that it'll make much difference.  Game shooting won't be here in its present form for much longer anyway . Its a shame , but it's the truth.

[JohnfromUK]

12 minutes ago, mel b3 said:

Their must be a way to trace the reg numbers

I don't believe there is a (legal) way open to 'ordinary citizens'.  Parking enforcement companies can do so by paying a small fee, but I believe they need to have some sort of license or membership?  Law enforcement and govt (including local govt) can get the information, and I suspect many can get it by the back door, though how you present that in Court would be an issue.

I don't believe the 'registered keeper' (which may be an individual, a company, a car hire company) can be requested to say who was driving on that day - but again (and I don't know for certain) that may only be enforcable in criminal cases, not civil cases.  In criminal cases - the registered keeper can be made to pay any fine if he/she/they can't identify the driver.  In days when I had the use of a company car (registered to the company), company rules stated every car must have a record available of who was driving - or the 'nominated user' of that car would be held responsible for any fines and offences.

[old man]

Registered keeper, not necessarily the legal owner?

A senior police officer I believe can order the removal of said face coverings?

[Good shot?]

My most recent and only time I have any contact with hunt sabs they had signs saying trespass is not illegal.

The police at the time told me that if they were to sit on my front garden I could not move them, I said I would have a big dog the following day and all I got was a frown from him.

Says it all , they are  are powerless it seems!!

Edited August 25, 2022 by Good shot?

[JohnfromUK]

Just now, old man said:

Registered keeper, not necessarily the legal owner?

My understanding is that the registered keeper is not always the legal owner.  It certainly used to be the case that some company vehicles and lease vehicles were 'registered' to the main driver, whereas others were registered to the company.

The company cars I had were owned by a leasing company - but I was the registered keeper - and as said above the company (who paid the lease fees) made us keep a record of drivers.

[Gordon R]

Quote

They need a good beating like a couple of months in hospital.  BUT we can't do it. 

The comment needs removing.

[JohnfromUK]

4 minutes ago, Good shot? said:

trespass is not illegal

CPS view here

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/trespass-and-nuisance-land

[Westley]

23 minutes ago, Good shot? said:

My most recent and only time I have any contact with hunt sabs they had signs saying trespass is not illegal.

The police at the time told me that if they were to sit on my front garden I could not move them, I said I would have a big dog the following day and all I got was a frown from him.

Says it all , they are  are powerless it seems!!

AGGRAVATED Trespass  is most certainly ILLEGAL BUT is never pursued.  These demonstrators are saying that "Trespass is not illegal".  Enter their property and see how long it takes for Police to attend  ?

[London Best]

1 minute ago, Westley said:

AGGRAVATED Trespass  is most certainly ILLEGAL BUT is never pursued.  These demonstrators are saying that "Trespass is not illegal".  Enter their property and see how long it takes for Police to attend  ?

A man in the next village was always walking all over my friends farm with his family with no regard for crops. My friend told him several times but he took no notice. One Sunday afternoon we took a transit full of kids and all went for a walk round the man’s garden, trampling as we went. He was not best pleased, but it cured his trespassing.

[old'un]

2 hours ago, Scully said:

I can’t help thinking it would be an awful shame if while the sabs were up in the moors, someone let all the air out of their vehicles tyres. That would be a great shame, I hope no one does that. 

Used to know a keeper on a big estate that had a walking stick with a nail in the bottom, when the hunt sabs were parked up he used to walk past their vehicles and put it through the side walls of their tyres, they were not very happy about it.

[bluesj]

57 minutes ago, Good shot? said:

My most recent and only time I have any contact with hunt sabs they had signs saying trespass is not illegal.

The police at the time told me that if they were to sit on my front garden I could not move them, I said I would have a big dog the following day and all I got was a frown from him.

Says it all , they are  are powerless it seems!!

I think the police told you porkies! No real surprise.

you can remove can't remember the the rules now but we used to do it with the local hunt. ****** the sabs off and the cops, win win! 😁

 

[old man]

56 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

CPS view here

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/trespass-and-nuisance-land

Ah, the vaunted CPS. Not fit for purpose IMHO,

[Westley]

1 hour ago, London Best said:

A man in the next village was always walking all over my friends farm with his family with no regard for crops. My friend told him several times but he took no notice. One Sunday afternoon we took a transit full of kids and all went for a walk round the man’s garden, trampling as we went. He was not best pleased, but it cured his trespassing.

Brilliant  🤣

[Scully]

2 hours ago, old'un said:

Used to know a keeper on a big estate that had a walking stick with a nail in the bottom, when the hunt sabs were parked up he used to walk past their vehicles and put it through the side walls of their tyres, they were not very happy about it.

Quite. A keeper I knew didn’t take any prisoners at all with folk trying to disrupt his shoot days, but that was before the advent of mobile phones, and he wouldn’t get away with it now. 

[Savhmr]

They can be prosecuted not under trespass but under legislation prohibiting the right of anyone disrupting a land occupier from rightful enjoyment of their legal activity.  The landowner is permitted to use reasonable force to evict them but the sabs know this and are quick with the cameras to accuse shooters of threatening behaviour which is why it's not a good idea to lay a finger on them or become aggressive.  The police should treat this aggressive onslaught of sabs with the seriousness it deserves and the CPS prosecute them with full sentencing and no leniency for these divisive and disruptive acts.  In short, they should be treated as what they are...countryside terrorists.