Exhausted with training.

[wildfowler.250]

Well gents . I thought I’d put this up for a debate on here. I appreciate with dogs, everyone has a different opinion and people never see eye to eye so I’m expecting a fair range of replies.

 

I’m getting fairly downbeat with my lab who is 1 year 7 months, male neutered.

Since day 1, his default has been to grab things and run off. Slippers, tissues - whatever. Now this has gotten significantly better in house and it’s more or less resolved,(unless he’s worked up at the folks when we’re visiting). He’s never been chased to encourage this apart from occasionally being put away to bed.

 

Retrieving has been so difficult. Has been much better in the past month. Sitting him out, dropping the dummy between us and then getting him to fetch towards us. Sometimes with a throw and fetch from feet, he would get to the dummy, then veer off at right angles rather than coming back.

Yesterday he was 10/10 on both retrieves. And he had been fairly reliable.
 

Tried him out shooting today in an ‘easy’ setting. Pigeon out of tree, folded it. 20 yards. Sent dog.

Dog goes out to bird, hesitates picking it,(despite picking cold game in garden). Then starts mouthing/chewing away at it. If he gets the slightest notion you’re going to come take it off him, it’s laps and laps with the bird on mouth and a huge game. No interest in taking it to you. I’ve never had a dog that doesn’t want to bring things to you and work with you?

 

Did the usual, walked away and gave up encouraging him in eventually - it wasn’t going to happen after 10 mins. He eventually got bored of the bird and traded it for cow muck. He only came back in because he thought there might be something better in the game bag -> then back on lead.

 

Even in the house, he wants to mouth,(despite never been played with) and chew firewood blocks constantly. He’s well walked but if he can gnaw on sticks or grass he will.

 

I get it was obviously too much too soon today. And a case of back to the drawing board. But I can’t believe how long this dog is taking to mature. He’ll sit for ages, even when you’re out of site, normally recall to whistle even in the field, will walk at heel. But my god he makes fetching difficult. 
 

Do I just hold off for another 6 months and stick to the basics in the hope that he’ll mentally settle down? He still wants to do everything at 100mph once he’s told to stop sitting. 
 

The partner isn’t for sending him away with a trainer for boarding. This is selfishly to also give me a break from him.  1 on 1 classes are an option. But I’ve varied a ton of different things and he just wants to cause trouble rather than work with you when there is an exciting situation. The 6 previous dogs we’ve had were a relative breeze by comparison and he’s had the most time put into him.

 

Suggestions welcome from a mentally exhausted owner. I think patience might be key. However my folks have held onto my other two dogs and they’re a good 3 hours away so it really is limiting the shooting as well as being a huge stress. The days in the field seem further away than ever.

Edited November 7, 2022 by wildfowler.250

[old'un]

do you think you may have over done the retrieving in the early training? Its so easy to turn a dog off retrieving by over doing it.

you may also have hit the nail on the head regarding his age, some dogs take a lot longer to come out of their puppy stage than other dogs, it may pay you to stop all training for a couple of weeks and just have some fun play time, chuck a tennis ball for him but don't make fuss about a retrieve, if he does not bring it to you, go pick it up and play with the ball yourself, make the ball something special.

 

 

 

Edited November 7, 2022 by old'un

[wildfowler.250]

5 minutes ago, old'un said:

do you think you may have over done the retrieving in the early training? Its so easy to turn a dog off retrieving by over doing it.

It’s a fair point. I don’t think I did in as much as I’ve always limited it to 2 per day. Maybe did this most days of the week.

Few months ago he was fab. Retrieving with dummy launcher and straight back. Then he got bored of it after about a week and started being a tool in the field instead. 
 

Brought it right back in for a couple of months and he’s been a lot better.

But what I can’t get my head around is this thing of him knowing he has something of high value - in this case the pigeon - and wanting to run around me and back and forth near me but not give it over. He knows he’s being bad.

And his recall is really good unless he gets over stimulated. He’ll be great in a field. Then one day just a slight raised voice at the wrong time and he’ll have a fit of laps where he knows he’s been bad but short term it’s worth it.

Then you’ll have 5 days of butter wouldn’t melt but I just can’t seem to turn the real life situations in my favour. I can’t decide if I should have done today on a long line or should I have waited until 2. But some dogs will retrieve well at a year.

 

He loves to cause a wind up and I don’t know why. All I’ve learned is to not to get myself wound up because it’s feeding into the game.

[old'un]

9 minutes ago, wildfowler.250 said:

It’s a fair point. I don’t think I did in as much as I’ve always limited it to 2 per day. Maybe did this most days of the week.

Few months ago he was fab. Retrieving with dummy launcher and straight back. Then he got bored of it after about a week and started being a tool in the field instead. 
 

Brought it right back in for a couple of months and he’s been a lot better.

But what I can’t get my head around is this thing of him knowing he has something of high value - in this case the pigeon - and wanting to run around me and back and forth near me but not give it over. He knows he’s being bad.

And his recall is really good unless he gets over stimulated. He’ll be great in a field. Then one day just a slight raised voice at the wrong time and he’ll have a fit of laps where he knows he’s been bad but short term it’s worth it.

Then you’ll have 5 days of butter wouldn’t melt but I just can’t seem to turn the real life situations in my favour. I can’t decide if I should have done today on a long line or should I have waited until 2. But some dogs will retrieve well at a year.

 

He loves to cause a wind up and I don’t know why. All I’ve learned is to not to get myself wound up because it’s feeding into the game.

I did ad a bit more to my original post but what you have just said makes me think the dog is still very immature/excitable, not all dogs are the same, as you are more than likely aware of.

one thing I have not mentioned yet and that is the possibility the dog is a head case and will never be what you want, I have seen it before where some dogs are just not going to make the grade, thankfully they are few and far between.

 

 

Edited November 7, 2022 by old'un

[snow white]

Lot birds don’t like picking pigeons up the feathers get stuck in there mouth 

[ditchman]

38 minutes ago, old'un said:

do you think you may have over done the retrieving in the early training? Its so easy to turn a dog off retrieving by over doing it.

you may also have hit the nail on the head regarding his age, some dogs take a lot longer to come out of their puppy stage than other dogs, it may pay you to stop all training for a couple of weeks and just have some fun play time, chuck a tennis ball for him but don't make fuss about a retrieve, if he does not bring it to you, go pick it up and play with the ball yourself, make the ball something special.

 

 

 

think there is a bit of sense in this.........very difficult situation........take everything away that he plays with....so he starts to rely on you for entertainment..leave the bird traning shooting for about 3 mths ...then see

[Walker570]

Old'un has probably hit the nail firmly on the head. The dog may be a 'nutter' it does happen.  I have tried with two dogs belonging to people in the same situation,  to solve just that problem and with no response.One bitch in particular was a complete nutter and if human would have been in a mental hospital.  My last four dogs where viszlas and they are not the best retrievers but with care all of mine would do the job. It just took a lot of patience.  Hope I am wrong obviously.    My dogs never got to be sent for a retrieve until I had actually done a few pick ups myself.  Pigeon shooting, I would sit them and then walk out and pick the birds myself making sure the dog could see me and stayed put.  Then the first time they where ALLOWED to retrieve they got a lot of praise and that was it no more that day..

on edit...good advise fromDitchie.  My dogs never had 'playthings' or allowed to pick up anything without permission. Given a fluffy toy as a puppy they asume it is theirs and then treat dummies and game the same.

Edited November 7, 2022 by Walker570

[Lloyd90]

You say he’s never been chased or never been encouraged to run off with the retrieve but just my view, bad habits like this are often put into a dog totally by mistake, and whoever did it may not even realise what they did that caused it. 

 

It could have been something you, or a family member did a long time ago and never realised at the time. 
 

Re the dog now, I would ABSOLUTELY send the dog off to someone for at least a short time, then come and see what progress the dog has made. 

This is easier said than done, you want someone who’ll actually do some work not just sit your dog in a kennel and charge you. 

If the dog behaves fine and works for someone else, then it may be time to face some hard home truths and think is the issue the dog or the handler. 
 

If an experienced handler also has the exact same issues then at least you know it’s not you … although a good handler should be able to make progress  with the dog on such basics. 

 

Just my experience, the issues are usually the handler … however not every dog is cut out for work (but most can be trained to do the basics, there’s a lot of not very well trained dogs out there on shoots). 

If someone says to you that it’s the dog and it’s just not cut out for work, would you get rid of the dog and get another one? If not then don’t worry about it 🤣

[Walker570]

Wise words from Lloyd as always.    Recently out shooting and a voice from the crowd said  "Where's my dog?" which said it all.

[macca2017]

If sending away for training is definitely not an option, try a long line.  Throw the dummy out at a short distance. send the dog, be firm and give tug if he doesn't come back, when he does come back, lots of praise, be really silly and make it exiting. Keep doing this  and extending the distance and hopefully, he will get the message, this is a good game.  After a while I'm sure you will be able to let the line trail and if he goes off, run and tread on the line,  it may take a long time (months), but be consistent in the approach and eventually you should be able to shorten the line and take eventually take  it off. 

The dog is still very young, don't give up, don't get frustrated, don't put him in a potion where he can play his game, be consistent. 

Good luck.

[Dave at kelton]

Where to start as you have answered some of your own points and some good advice above.
 

First off I have a very hot lab at present and encountered some of your problems, now resolved. He has matured very late and still at two and a half exhibits puppyish behaviour. In general though he has settled reasonably and with 21 days picking up under his belt this season I am very happy with progress so don’t despair, probably just a late starter.

a lot of what you describe sounds like immature behaviour. By all means try and find a trainer but my gut feeling is to tough it out, take the pressure off and go back to basics with the dummies, avoiding game of any description and definitely not pigeons.

one thing you might try, which I do with all my dogs at an early age, is have them put their nose in the palm of my hand when they come in. Simple to do by putting a piece of kibble there hold your hand down and call them up. Repeated often enough as soon as they see that palm down and called up they are into it like a shot. That of course is the basics of good retrieves, delivery in to hand. I don’t do all this sitting in front of me stuff as it would be dangerous on the hill where I could fall over them.

Hope this gives you a little encouragement and perhaps allays the innate fear that you have nutter on your hands.

Good luck!

[Lloyd90]

59 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

Wise words from Lloyd as always.    Recently out shooting and a voice from the crowd said  "Where's my dog?" which said it all.

I don’t remember us going shooting together 😬👀🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[Rob85]

Being honest I would be inclined to stop everything and start again, from the beginning. Treat him like a dog you've only just got, focus on recall, don't let him near any objects he can pick up and play with for a good few weeks to a month. If he wants something to beat boredom then it has to be pleasing you.

I would be cautious taking it to a trainer to iron out issues with a dog whose a little older. The one I went to who was well known enough to be on television shows advised me straight off the bat that the dog "wasn't with me at all" and that I would be better selling her... oh and just by coincidence his friend had a pup that was ready for sale for a great price.

[old'un]

this may not be practical for you but some years ago when I was taking one of my dogs for some training in a rabbit pen the trainer there had what he called a “blind ally retrieve”

it was a straight run of sheep wire fencing about 30 yards long and about 2 yards wide with a moveable end stop for different lengths of retrieve.

Chatting with him about this setup he said the idea behind it is to imprint into the dog a straight retrieve and help cure loop retrieves, plus the little bar sted cant run off with the dummy, mind you he did say he had one smart *** dog that used to jump the fence.

Once he was happy with retrieves in the blind ally he moved onto a farm track with a hedgerow and netting along it and continued with the retrieve training.

I never seen him using it but he said he had a lot of success with problem dogs on retrieve, just to say he only used this setup for one retrieve in the morning and one in the afternoon, he said that most dogs have got the idea after about a week or so.

edit- re-reading some of your posts I am almost certain the problem with your dog is, he still as his puppy head on.

Or he is a head case.

Edited November 8, 2022 by old'un

[Agriv8]

My Spanner Spaniel did not get anywhere a sensible head until about 2 ( she is a family pet first ) and Working dog second - 

Would and will return with a Tennis ball no problem  Training dummy not quite as sucefull but would normally work. - soon as it turned to game the silliness would start every  time we tried with Game.

She's just gone 3 and first day out of the season on Saturday -  I hit a hen and sent her off ( no other dogs about as back Gun ) as soon as she Picked it and to stop the messing I got her to sit ! and I went to her a momentary stand of on the dead command but as soon as I started asking her to go of and hunt  I was given the bird. this was repeated on 3 birds I asked her to pick.

I know this is not perfect by any situation but at the moment I am try to remove the "Silly Stage" once we have that sorted we will work on bringing it back to me. after the weekend I will go back to working with the Dummy with a pair of wings on and and decide where to go next !  I once read on hear I think - try and fix a problem one little step at once and always go back a step if things go wrong.

finally a session with a trainer they often have an eye to spotting ways to get through the sensible dog hiding within the nutter .

Agriv8 

 

 

[12gauge82]

I wouldn't get down beat about this, I've seen that behaviour many times and it is seldom caused by the owner, some dogs just get reward from taking their retrieve or reward off and it's very natural when you think about it, when a wolf makes a kill, particularly if there are other higher level packmates near by, its going to want to get its reward before its taken off it. 

Fixing it depends on what is driving the behaviour, if it's doing it because it thinks it's instantly going to loose its reward (the bird), when it comes back to you, you could try replacing it with a different reward depending on what drives the dog. If it's doing it because it thinks it might get a game out of you chasing him or he knows you want it and is basically teasing you there are stratigies for that to. Best best is have a couple of professional sessions and they will help you get over the problem, it's very tricky to assess if a dog isn't in front of you. 

[Walker570]

5 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

I don’t remember us going shooting together 😬👀🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

I am certain is does not happen in your regime.

The only reward any of my dogs got was a stroke , maybe a hug and a "Well done , good dog".  Their reward was they knew they had pleased the top dog and we had lots of fun in between.

Edited November 8, 2022 by Walker570

[Agriv8]

1 minute ago, Walker570 said:

I am certain is does not happen in your regime.

Oh in that case  - have you been shooting in Yorkshire recently Walker 570 ?

Agriv8 

[Walker570]

2 minutes ago, Agriv8 said:

Oh in that case  - have you been shooting in Yorkshire recently Walker 570 ?

Agriv8 

No so your off the hook🤣

[Walker570]

YOUTUBE...  A DAY PICKING UP....   what can be achieved and what should be aimed at.  Notice, no tit bits given after a great retrieve,  just a stroke around the head as a thanyou.  Where those dogs enjoying themselves?

Edited November 10, 2022 by Walker570

[12gauge82]

3 hours ago, Walker570 said:

YOUTUBE...  A DAY PICKING UP....   what can be achieved and what should be aimed at.  Notice, no tit bits given after a great retrieve,  just a stroke around the head as a thanyou.  Where those dogs enjoying themselves?

That's because the incentive for most spaniels and labs is in retrieving the game in the first place, but like people all dogs are different and there's nothing wrong with tailoring a different approach when required. 

[wj939]

You absolutely should not be shooting birds for him if you want this to get better.
Like it or not, you’re turning the excitement up to 11 and expecting him to behave when at the moment he cannot repeatedly perform the task as you wish in different training settings. 
 

Back to basic work where he gets it right until he can’t get it wrong, then onto the next setting. 
 

Alternatively, you might just have hit the experience wall and a few weeks away might be just the ticket 

[bigbird]

He’s just fulfilling the dog prey sequence (as far as he’s concerned)

stalk > chase>catch>kill bite>dissect>eat

In many dogs this is engrained into their character regardless of breed - well actually, it’s this trait that works in our favour in most dogs, it just requires honing!

In order to break / interrupt this sequence you need to make whatever you’re doing as a result of him fetching it back to you more exciting then his self gratification in carrying out the behaviour. If you see what I mean.

What do you do if / when he brings a retrieve back out of interest?

 

It’s also worth mentioning that dogs don’t generalise well - when you change the picture for them ie from the garden to a shooting scenario he may genuinely not understand what’s expected of him PLUS as others have already said, it’s Uber exciting and he’ll be on the edge anyway 😂

Edited November 15, 2022 by bigbird

[wildfowler.250]

Cheers gents, interesting replies and varied as expected.

What I will say is that he will fetch absolutely fine if he is sat out, dummy placed between us. And he has to fetch towards me.

And it’s about 50:50 if I throw it from feet what he will do. He usually sprints about daft and tries to make a game of chase of it. Got bored of it today after 1 minute and brought it in but he knows he’s done wrong.

I don’t fully understand why running towards me guarantees success and he’s excellent. But when he has to go out and turn around with the dummy, he decides to run off.

 

 

This is the first dog that I’ve used treats for,(grudgingly). He does get some fuss - but not a lot as it’s reining in he seems to need.

 

 

He just seems quite erratic and it might be a case of time and it will all click. I’ve heard of some top trainers not really starting until a year and a half. I’d happily have him away with a trainer but my partner would prefer to do 1 on 1’s,(although in the end she’ll go with whatever I suggest). He’s had a lot more time and effort out in than any of my other previous dogs and yet I feel for the least return.

 

 

Thanks again for the replies! With any luck he might be mentally mature by 2024..

[B725]

Put yourself a few yard's from the dog then throw the dummy behind you,  you then become a barrier between the dog and dummy let him sit for a short while step to one side before you send him. Keep the distance short to begin with so you can intercept if need be or maybe use a long line 10 metre one from Amazon is less than £20.