Televised Fox Hunting On The Evening News

[PeterHenry]

3 minutes ago, discobob said:

So in other words - the operation was a success but the patient will die 😆

I do know it is a culmination of things and after watching Clarksons Farm I tip my hat to you with what you have to deal with on that side - but again your legal training/bent helps you to see it in that broken down way.

For the rest of us it feels like "they are all out to get us" 

Well, I don't think the patient will necessarily die - wildfowling hasn't died in the UK or USA since those lead bans came in.

Personally, I think with the way things are going, long term shooting will probably go back to smaller days and wilder birds. Less driven shooting and more walked up or rough shooting. We are really going to need to stress our environmental credentials for live quary shooting (maybe slightly less so for pest control, than game shooting, but still...) and anyway, it's not like there's no precedent for those things in shootings history. It's more like a turn of the wheel.

If shooting comes out of this leaner and fitter (which I'm sure it can) then that's all the better.

[Scully]

47 minutes ago, PeterHenry said:

I think possibly if you view them all together - but just take them one by one. 

Steel / eco wads - OK, I won't feel comfortable using my old side by sides, and prices per shot will go up. I may shoot less, but it won't stop me shooting. This has been coming for ages, and isnt necessarily an attack on shooting as a general attack on lead - Hasselblad had to stop using lead in their camera lenses back in the early 2000's and discontinued a fantastic camera line called the x-pan. Lead crystal decanters and glasses come with warnings now...

Doctors signing off - there's medcert, so that's not a big issue. 

General license challenges - yes, that was an attack by WJ, but it clarified existing law. The law itself didn't change (from memory). Regardless, pest control continues much the same as for the last 30 or so years.

Releasing gamebirds on / near SSSI's - we have a general licence in place for this now, so little change in practice, and (if you take away WJ from the picture) as conservation minded individuals, its no bad thing to my mind. 

Regardless, WJ are a nuisance, but they are suffering from diminishing returns.

I know there are other things in the pipeline - just break them down and realise that they are not all coming at us from one great fictional 'enemy'.

On the bright side, there are some brilliant initiatives going on at the moment such as the Country Food Trust / British Game Assurance / getting venison into NHS hospital meals. There's also a growing public acceptance around deer control.

My main point is that if we all subscribe to the death by a thousand cuts theory, it becomes self fulfilling.

I have two jobs - I run a farm and I work at a law firm. I get stuff thrown at me nearly constantly. You just have to move through it and pick yourself up. If I gave up the whole thing would collapse in on itself and where would I be then? I just apply the same stoic approch to everything else in this (seemingly ever) changing world.

 

Good post. A sister of my OH says that if you feel outfaced with whatever’s facing you, just break it down into ‘chunks’ and deal with one chunk at a time. It works, and can be applied to many things. 🙂

[PeterHenry]

4 minutes ago, Scully said:

Good post. A sister of my OH says that if you feel outfaced with whatever’s facing you, just break it down into ‘chunks’ and deal with one chunk at a time. It works, and can be applied to many things. 🙂

👍

[bluesj]

5 hours ago, PeterHenry said:

 

 

Sorry to pull you both up on this - and it's understandable given the pressures shooting as a sport is currently under, especially if its a sport you hold dear - but that kind of mindset is only going to result in a self fulfilling prophecy.

The future of shooting is far from certain, but its far less so if pepole just give up on it (and cast negative and non constructive opinions around public forums to boot).

Shooting is going to change - there's no doubt in my mind of that - but it's up to us all to find a way to accommodate that change and work along with it.

Two things I try to keep in mind -continuity presupposes change / there is no ban in the pipework when change is sought and regulations are mooted.

Shooting isn't some island that parliament will never touch again - but likewise, just because changes re poor practice in gamebird releases / lead shot / doctors signing off certificates / etc are suggested or come into force, doesn't mean its the end, or even near it.

Rant over - and its not even directed at either of you personally. More a sort of insidious defeatism that I see creeping in from the corners.

Anyway, nothing personal - I've had my say now.

Peter

I do hope you are right,not for me as I think shooting will out last me, but we are seeing attacks on shooting sports from all sides but our shooting orgs seem be of the opinion that keeping you're head down and hoping it all goes away is the best defense. Being only just under 1% of the population  we haven't got much of a voice and can easily be ignored.

We have all seen how the media don't say anything about licenses when a crime is committed with an illegal firearm but its front and center in any report that involves a license holder or how any bop found dead must have been shot or other ways killed by shooters.   We are getting all these problems and no one is even trying yet just wj having a poke around the edges and few politicians saying if it saves just 1 life every time firearms are mentioned.

[islandgun]

2 hours ago, PeterHenry said:

Well, I don't think the patient will necessarily die - wildfowling hasn't died in the UK or USA since those lead bans came in.

Personally, I think with the way things are going, long term shooting will probably go back to smaller days and wilder birds. Less driven shooting and more walked up or rough shooting. We are really going to need to stress our environmental credentials for live quary shooting (maybe slightly less so for pest control, than game shooting, but still...) and anyway, it's not like there's no precedent for those things in shootings history. It's more like a turn of the wheel.

If shooting comes out of this leaner and fitter (which I'm sure it can) then that's all the better.

Highlighted words in a nutshell and it also applies to most everything else in the countryside, the good bits of Agriculture, Deer control in re-wilding proposals, game entering the food chain, moorland management.

Conservation, food production, sporting interests should work hand in hand

[PeterHenry]

54 minutes ago, bluesj said:

I do hope you are right,not for me as I think shooting will out last me, but we are seeing attacks on shooting sports from all sides but our shooting orgs seem be of the opinion that keeping you're head down and hoping it all goes away is the best defense. Being only just under 1% of the population  we haven't got much of a voice and can easily be ignored.

We have all seen how the media don't say anything about licenses when a crime is committed with an illegal firearm but its front and center in any report that involves a license holder or how any bop found dead must have been shot or other ways killed by shooters.   We are getting all these problems and no one is even trying yet just wj having a poke around the edges and few politicians saying if it saves just 1 life every time firearms are mentioned.

I agree - I don't think as a sport we have been as proactive as we could have been - but that seems to be changing now. The Orgs have a difficult game to play - a good proportion of shooters will damm them whatever they do.

As you say - the media tend to jump on, but they do that with more or less everything that will sell. Its also worth bearing in mind that it's far easier to criticise and pull down than defend - and being only human, journalists often tend towards the easier. I'm not saying that's its a good thing (it's not) - but it does account for the skewed amount of non positive articles on shooting in the press (and lack of positive articles on anything generally). Afterall, to quote Peter Cook - 'when was the last time you read about millions of pepole going about their day reasonably successfully? They dont print news like that'

I do disagree with you about nobody trying though. WJ have tried very hard - like them or not, Leigh Day are a serious law firm - they aren't highstreet solicitors. You can rest assured that they will have been spending a lot of time and effort on these actions on WJ's behalf - and their barristers and KC's to boot. They will also have gone for the low hanging fruit first - and look where its got them. Not particularly far in my estimation.

10 minutes ago, islandgun said:

Highlighted words in a nutshell and it also applies to most everything else in the countryside, the good bits of Agriculture, Deer control in re-wilding proposals, game entering the food chain, moorland management.

Conservation, food production, sporting interests should work hand in hand

👍

Edited February 13, 2023 by PeterHenry

[Bigbob]

Well i am 62 did a bit as a ranger in the forestry commission moved jobs  for better money and i didnt want the kids playing a banjo in some backwoods . Still had the contacts to get as much shooting working the terriers ,lurchers and ferrets as i wanted . Them it started with the snaring licence and my snares needed altered i gave2000 + away , then the terriers were not replaced when old age stopped them working , Now my 2 lurchers are 8 and i cant see me needing anymore . The ferrets would be as well away who feed 12 ferrets all year when there's hardly a rabbit?. .That leaves the shooting and after renewing my fire arms cert i think it may be the last just leaving shotguns and i can see the end in sight for that . It worries me that my son and grandson wont have the freedom to roam that i did . Its no just the anti's that spell the death of our sport its the folk that film everything on there mobile phones and post it on line they do a lot more damage than the gullible folk in the city's who vote for changes to laws for the country side they know nothing about 

[PeterHenry]

27 minutes ago, Bigbob said:

Well i am 62 did a bit as a ranger in the forestry commission moved jobs  for better money and i didnt want the kids playing a banjo in some backwoods . Still had the contacts to get as much shooting working the terriers ,lurchers and ferrets as i wanted . Them it started with the snaring licence and my snares needed altered i gave2000 + away , then the terriers were not replaced when old age stopped them working , Now my 2 lurchers are 8 and i cant see me needing anymore . The ferrets would be as well away who feed 12 ferrets all year when there's hardly a rabbit?. .That leaves the shooting and after renewing my fire arms cert i think it may be the last just leaving shotguns and i can see the end in sight for that . It worries me that my son and grandson wont have the freedom to roam that i did . Its no just the anti's that spell the death of our sport its the folk that film everything on there mobile phones and post it on line they do a lot more damage than the gullible folk in the city's who vote for changes to laws for the country side they know nothing about 

I sympathise - but it's not just shooting and fieldsports. The times we are living in are restrictive, and will become even more so. There's very little we can do about that - but it stings all the more because we have been living during the hightide mark of personal liberty - especially the last 40 years or so. Just look at the fuss around log burners or personal transport / pollution in London....

Re social media - that's a two edged sword. Pictures that reinforce the link between hunting and food do the world of good. Bad ones do a far deal worse in the opposite direction.

 

Edited February 13, 2023 by PeterHenry

[Mice!]

On 11/02/2023 at 16:06, 12gauge82 said:

don't buy it. As shooters we always strive to humanly dispatch what we kill in as humane and quick way possible. Yes there are always exceptions to the rule and sometimes shots are misplaced but the point is the intent is there. I also don't know any shooter's who take pleasure from the kill itself, its all about the stalking and/or skill in placing the shot.

Think about what you've said, how often are pheasant winged, if it's not about the kill then why shoot pheasant at all?

I don't think it will be long before the large pheasant shoots are the sole focus of the Antis, 200+ bird days several times a week done solely for pleasure. 

I've never doubted that shooting pheasants is a massive industry,  but shooters claiming the hunts are out of order for enjoying it is ridiculous, that's the very reason that people shoot pheasant. 

[Bigbob]

Its different for .all you lot that dont live in Scotland we got the Greens making rules here ,(the people of scotland didn't vote them in wee jimmy krankie did to get a majority ) we already got snare and airgun licences which you dont have . we used to put a lot of miles on the truck kill a lot of rabbits RHD put paid to that . i took ill heath with the idea of getting out anytime i fancied i could up here eyes everywhere . I know one guy if taking his terriers out takes a spade out before hand and hides it as his neighbours call the police when he goes out . My son informed me when i die he would give away all my snares and traps and just concentrate on the lurchers not now in scotland i give it 20 years and all fieldsports will be gone 

[greenshank1]

22 minutes ago, Bigbob said:

Its different for .all you lot that dont live in Scotland we got the Greens making rules here ,(the people of scotland didn't vote them in wee jimmy krankie did to get a majority ) we already got snare and airgun licences which you dont have . we used to put a lot of miles on the truck kill a lot of rabbits RHD put paid to that . i took ill heath with the idea of getting out anytime i fancied i could up here eyes everywhere . I know one guy if taking his terriers out takes a spade out before hand and hides it as his neighbours call the police when he goes out . My son informed me when i die he would give away all my snares and traps and just concentrate on the lurchers not now in scotland i give it 20 years and all fieldsports will be gone 

I have the same fears mate . We are in a terrible place . The Hunting with dogs debate a few weeks back in the Scottish parliament was so sad I had to stop watching it was so depressing. The defense put up was pathetic and the argument for further tightening of the ban was a vote winner pure and simple. I am embarrassed as a proud Scot to say  Scotland is along way down the road than the rest of uk in banning every country sport .  I just watched the hunt video , unbelievable, how stupid can they be , but let’s not kid ourselves as a shooting community, it’s just as bad and as damaging as big driven game shoots dumping shot birds or poisoning birds of prey .
They are all sadly nails in the Fieldsports coffin. 

 

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, Mice! said:

Think about what you've said, how often are pheasant winged, if it's not about the kill then why shoot pheasant at all?

I don't think it will be long before the large pheasant shoots are the sole focus of the Antis, 200+ bird days several times a week done solely for pleasure. 

I've never doubted that shooting pheasants is a massive industry,  but shooters claiming the hunts are out of order for enjoying it is ridiculous, that's the very reason that people shoot pheasant. 

I have and I mentioned it as I knew it'd come up. People enjoy the sport of hitting challenging pheasants and the sport they provide. How many people shooting pheasant shoot them on the ground? I know none that get the pleasure from the actual killing. Watch the video of the hunt and tell me they didn't enjoy the killing of the foxes. Which to be fair is almost irrelevant in itself, the point is the general public no longer tolerate hunting with hounds, its finished and many hunts are now reduced to criminals, you need to accept its over. 

[Mice!]

1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said:

Watch the video of the hunt and tell me they didn't enjoy the killing of the foxes

I hadn't watched the video because I was in work when it was first posted, but I've just watched it three times.

It doesn’t really show anything,  the terrier is pulled clear and taken well out of the way to make sure the hounds don't do it harm.

Someone from the hunt pulls out a fox, hard to say if it's alive or dead, but he has a good grip on it, the second fox bolts and a muppet can be heard giggling,  but we were all young and excitable once.

The camera follows the running fox then pans back to the other hounds surrounding the huntsman no doubt ripping into the fox.

I'm amazed people on here are put out by this, I was expecting something horrific. 

I've watched videos of mixed packs ratting,  lots of shouting and whooping,  some behaviour I might not like, like stamping on a rat, but people get caught up in things.

1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said:

People enjoy the sport of hitting challenging pheasants and the sport they provide. How many people shooting pheasant shoot them on the ground? I know none that get the pleasure from the actual killing.

Really? Then shoot high clays, I've seen pheasants so high they are unshootable,  once heard a gun say he thought they were starlings. 

The shooting world is far from pure, things go on that shouldn't that I won't say on a public forum,  but hundreds of thousands of birds raised to be shot for sport, yet the shooters are pointing their finger at the hunts?

It smacks of double standards.

[johnphilip]

15 minutes ago, Mice! said:

I hadn't watched the video because I was in work when it was first posted, but I've just watched it three times.

It doesn’t really show anything,  the terrier is pulled clear and taken well out of the way to make sure the hounds don't do it harm.

Someone from the hunt pulls out a fox, hard to say if it's alive or dead, but he has a good grip on it, the second fox bolts and a muppet can be heard giggling,  but we were all young and excitable once.

The camera follows the running fox then pans back to the other hounds surrounding the huntsman no doubt ripping into the fox.

I'm amazed people on here are put out by this, I was expecting something horrific. 

I've watched videos of mixed packs ratting,  lots of shouting and whooping,  some behaviour I might not like, like stamping on a rat, but people get caught up in things.

Really? Then shoot high clays, I've seen pheasants so high they are unshootable,  once heard a gun say he thought they were starlings. 

The shooting world is far from pure, things go on that shouldn't that I won't say on a public forum,  but hundreds of thousands of birds raised to be shot for sport, yet the shooters are pointing their finger at the hunts?

It smacks of double standards.

Illegal  .......versus  ......... legal  simple as  that  .,

[Dave-G]

It smacks to me of a fox running for its life till near exhaustion before taking refuge in an earth, then knowing its being dug down to it and maybe its cubs before being ripped apart as a reward for dogs chasing it at the pleasure of blood thirsty masters.

Maybe its just older shooters like myself who are becoming tired? of the wanton killing of animals just for the sport of it.

[Mice!]

I've just seen a ladies day ride out ( setting off, not sure of the correct wording) easily 80-100 riders, looked like a lot of young riders as well, all well dressed and looking like they're happy and enjoying themselves,  I hope they had a good ride with no hassle. 

14 minutes ago, johnphilip said:

Illegal  .......versus  ......... legal  simple as  that  .,

Deliberately Hunting a fox is illegal,  but that's not what's shown, if it was illegal to dig a fox out then why are there terrier men still?

[Mice!]

17 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

Maybe its just older shooters like myself who are becoming tired? of the wanton killing of animals just for the sport of it

I know what you mean, even seeing a fox that's been shot, a large healthy looking animal,  probably because its so dog like always seems a shame, but farmers need to control them.

[12gauge82]

2 hours ago, Mice! said:

I hadn't watched the video because I was in work when it was first posted, but I've just watched it three times.

It doesn’t really show anything,  the terrier is pulled clear and taken well out of the way to make sure the hounds don't do it harm.

Someone from the hunt pulls out a fox, hard to say if it's alive or dead, but he has a good grip on it, the second fox bolts and a muppet can be heard giggling,  but we were all young and excitable once.

The camera follows the running fox then pans back to the other hounds surrounding the huntsman no doubt ripping into the fox.

I'm amazed people on here are put out by this, I was expecting something horrific. 

I've watched videos of mixed packs ratting,  lots of shouting and whooping,  some behaviour I might not like, like stamping on a rat, but people get caught up in things.

Really? Then shoot high clays, I've seen pheasants so high they are unshootable,  once heard a gun say he thought they were starlings. 

The shooting world is far from pure, things go on that shouldn't that I won't say on a public forum,  but hundreds of thousands of birds raised to be shot for sport, yet the shooters are pointing their finger at the hunts?

It smacks of double standards.

Got to be honest, I wouldnt say I was put out by it, just that it looked very poor and Joe public who are already disgusted at fox hunting would find it abhorrent,not to mention the fact it was totally illegal. 

There's no way I'd back that as a shooter and that's without the poor, selfish behaviour I and others I know have witnessed some hunts get up to. 

Like I keep saying hunting fox with hounds is done for, anyone that can't see that is deluding themselves. 

[Rim Fire]

7 hours ago, Mice! said:

Really? Then shoot high clays, I've seen pheasants so high they are unshootable,  once heard a gun say he thought they were starlings. 

The shooting world is far from pure, things go on that shouldn't that I won't say on a public forum,  but hundreds of thousands of birds raised to be shot for sport, yet the shooters are pointing their finger at the hunts?

It smacks o

Spot on you don't need to shoot live targets to see if you can hit challenging targets it is double standards 

[London Best]

20 minutes ago, Rim Fire said:

Spot on you don't need to shoot live targets to see if you can hit challenging targets it is double standards 

If live quarry shooting was banned I would not take up clay shooting.

[johnphilip]

6 hours ago, Mice! said:

I've just seen a ladies day ride out ( setting off, not sure of the correct wording) easily 80-100 riders, looked like a lot of young riders as well, all well dressed and looking like they're happy and enjoying themselves,  I hope they had a good ride with no hassle. 

Deliberately Hunting a fox is illegal,  but that's not what's shown, if it was illegal to dig a fox out then why are there terrier men still?

This is the problem with many laws  passed  in this  country  , they are up to interpretation,  that's  why the legal profession  make  a good  living .

If there is no fox hunting  with  dogs , then there  should be no need  for the  terrier man to follow  the hunt . 

If a fox  goes to ground  on one of these  drag hunts  , it should be left there . The hunt no longer calls them " terrier men , but  call them  " countrymen "  employed in other  attractive like closing  and opening  gates etc , so why  the need  for a terrier dog . 

Once again  interpretation 

[Rim Fire]

2 minutes ago, London Best said:

If live quarry shooting was banned I would not take up clay shooting.

So you only shoot because it is live quarry which means you only shoot to kill a pheasant 

[London Best]

Just now, Rim Fire said:

So you only shoot because it is live quarry which means you only shoot to kill a pheasant 

No. I wouldn’t take up clay shooting because there is no excitement, it’s like watching paint dry.

[johnphilip]

59 minutes ago, London Best said:

No. I wouldn’t take up clay shooting because there is no excitement, it’s like watching paint dry.

Have you never tried the clay come straight at you ,now that is fun 😀

[old'un]

26 minutes ago, johnphilip said:

Have you never tried the clay come straight at you ,now that is fun 😀

I have ….getting the bits of clay out your mouth is the bit I don't like.