Just unfortunate .......

[Walker570]

....or is it down to shooters reading up all this garbage about 30 + gram canon loads to kill pheasant and partridge and super dooper all singing dancing chokes for their guns BUT this last season I have had more pheasants that I have had to bin because of excessive damage to the meat. One cock bird had eleven shot holes in the breast meat and they looked like #4s and four of the shot had almost gone in the same hole. The meat was unusable other than fox bait.  I cuess I have had to throw away about a third of the game mainly pheasants I have brought home this last season. I normally bring home two or three brace each time, so that was probably fifty to sixty birds overall.   OR is it down to new live game shooters coming onto the field and shooting at birds much too close.   I have seen clouds of feathers on a few occasions.  My wife who stands with me sometimes will ask why I did not shoot and I explaon I judged it to be too close and I would blow it to pieces.   A bit of a semi rant I know but it is important that game meat that goes to dealers is not ruined and the genral public should be introduced to some excellent protein.

[London Best]

I, too, have noticed more damage to pheasants lately. 
Not necessarily lots of pellet holes, but more damage, per hole. 
I think it is down to shooters, new to game or otherwise, thinking that No.4’s and3’s are suitable for pheasants in loads of 34 and 36 grams.

[matone]

First partridge day last season,I looked in the empties bucket on the game cart.......Justcartridges Purple Fury 33gm 5`s !!!!

That sums up where we`ve got to thanks to the manufacturers hyped advertising ......

[enfieldspares]

33 gram English #5 is not excessive? Surely is it not the old 1 1 /8 ounce load of that same shot size as my father's generation shooting in the 1960s used? Or is it Eley Maximum 1 3/16 ounce equivalent? I can't do the fraction calculation.

Edited February 20, 2023 by enfieldspares

[Stonepark]

It doesn't help with cartridge manufacturers oversizing pellets... Gamebore Black Gold\Darkstorms are marked 6, 5 and 4 but are in reality 5's, 4's and 3's respectively

A 36g no3 is a goose load!

Pellets (and loads and chokes)are generally too big, being a form of Magnumitis where having a cartridge that can drop the furthest bird of the day, 50 yard plus Pheasant on an average day (where everything else flies at 25 yards)  is chosen (representing 1% of shots) as against letting that 1% fly past for another day and having a cartridge suitable for the majority of the days shooting.

Better off with a 28g no7, possibly an extra hole or two but very little bruising.

 

[Poor Shot]

I would guess its a combination of all of the above but mainly taking shots too close with too much cartridge.

I used a 28 Bore for some of my shooting this year and having not used a 28 bore before it took some working out on appropriate ranges etc. First bird I took was a 20-25 yard crossing bird which I thought would have been about the ideal range for a small calibre with 24g of Eley 6 shot and 1/2 choke. Completely inedible, looked as if I'd shot it with a slug. Caught the bird centre pattern and centre mass. 

I've since patterned the gun on a 30 yard plate and the pattern Is indeed very tight. Most of the shot within a football with a few flyers dotted around.

I normally carry a few different cartridges to suit the range of the different drives we do. Some are perfect for small calibres or 28g of 7's etc. Some need a good load of 5's as the birds are up there.

[Smokersmith]

I try and mark the birds I’ve shot so I can take them. Feather through the nots or a plucked head. Not always possible, but it helps.

[matone]

40 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

33 gram English #5 is not excessive? Surely is it not the old 1 1 /8 ounce load of that same shot size as my father's generation shooting in the 1960s used? Or is it Eley Maximum 1 3/16 ounce equivalent? I can't do the fraction calculation.

Not excessive ! LOL ...traditional partridges = 1oz loads . 7/8oz is more than enough with modern loadings.

[Stonepark]

26 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

33 gram English #5 is not excessive? Surely is it not the old 1 1 /8 ounce load of that same shot size as my father's generation shooting in the 1960s used?

Ah.. but they aren't.

You purple fury, black gold etc are all heading for 1500ft\sec, which even down range is still doing 100ft\sec more than your father's generation cartridges (so they have 10 yards more energy for any given range), so a 30 yard shot with your modern cartridge is like a 20 yard shot with your father's cartridge.

Most pheasants are shot (both traditionally and in modern times) at 25 to 35 yards, in reality, they are now getting hit by high velocity pellets like they are 15 to 25 yards away and getting bruised due to the excessive energy remaining in the pellets.

[Ferret664]

I blame the cartridge company's and YouTube alot for this ! I'm a keeper myself and over the last 10 years especially with the younger guns. loads have got heavier and chokes tighter and we are just your average pretty flat ground shoot . Most birds are between 15-30yards and the odd screamer 50 yarder aka 35 yard bird 🙈 .

In my experience though it's definitely the younger guns who seem to think you need a minimum of 32g 5 to kill a 20 yard pheasant. And so many birds are so badly shot they're only fit for ferrets ! I've seen guns crouch to try to shoot at birds just over their heads 🙄. I've found with the older gentleman who shoot they normally shoot 28g 6s and have no problem killing the birds cleanly and you never get any badly shot birds whereas when younger guns shoot I might get 12-15 every shoot just fit for ferrets . They seem unable to let a bird pass without shooting at it no matter the height which is very sad and even when a quiet word is said they just slip back into the habit quickly . There's seems to be the mindset of shoot it cause its there now . The day of being happy with a few quality birds you can remember at the end of the day seems to have been replaced by numbers no matter the height . 

[London Best]

1 hour ago, Ferret664 said:

I blame the cartridge company's and YouTube alot for this ! I'm a keeper myself and over the last 10 years especially with the younger guns. loads have got heavier and chokes tighter and we are just your average pretty flat ground shoot . Most birds are between 15-30yards and the odd screamer 50 yarder aka 35 yard bird 🙈 .

In my experience though it's definitely the younger guns who seem to think you need a minimum of 32g 5 to kill a 20 yard pheasant. And so many birds are so badly shot they're only fit for ferrets ! I've seen guns crouch to try to shoot at birds just over their heads 🙄. I've found with the older gentleman who shoot they normally shoot 28g 6s and have no problem killing the birds cleanly and you never get any badly shot birds whereas when younger guns shoot I might get 12-15 every shoot just fit for ferrets . They seem unable to let a bird pass without shooting at it no matter the height which is very sad and even when a quiet word is said they just slip back into the habit quickly . There's seems to be the mindset of shoot it cause its there now . The day of being happy with a few quality birds you can remember at the end of the day seems to have been replaced by numbers no matter the height . 

I don’t think it’s particularly the youngsters, rather the inexperienced whatever their age. Also, the fact that, today, most people come to shooting through clay shooting and seem to think that ‘game’ cartridges are different to ‘clay’ cartridges and need to be much more powerful.

[Penelope]

On 20/02/2023 at 16:15, Walker570 said:

....or is it down to shooters reading up all this garbage about 30 + gram canon loads to kill pheasant and partridge and super dooper all singing dancing chokes for their guns BUT this last season I have had more pheasants that I have had to bin because of excessive damage to the meat. One cock bird had eleven shot holes in the breast meat and they looked like #4s and four of the shot had almost gone in the same hole. The meat was unusable other than fox bait.  I cuess I have had to throw away about a third of the game mainly pheasants I have brought home this last season. I normally bring home two or three brace each time, so that was probably fifty to sixty birds overall.   OR is it down to new live game shooters coming onto the field and shooting at birds much too close.   I have seen clouds of feathers on a few occasions.  My wife who stands with me sometimes will ask why I did not shoot and I explaon I judged it to be too close and I would blow it to pieces.   A bit of a semi rant I know but it is important that game meat that goes to dealers is not ruined and the genral public should be introduced to some excellent protein.

Yep, there's few guilty of shooting 1oz of 7's pheasants, with 1 1/4oz of 5's.

[Ferret664]

1 hour ago, London Best said:

I don’t think it’s particularly the youngsters, rather the inexperienced whatever their age. Also, the fact that, today, most people come to shooting through clay shooting and seem to think that ‘game’ cartridges are different to ‘clay’ cartridges and need to be much more powerful.

I agree as such but most youngsters now seem to be those inexperienced coming through in their 30,40s ect who like you said come through clay shooting . The problem with clay shooters as well is every clay can be shot at and they take that into the field too! Every pheasant is fine to shoot as they haven't been taught any better 

[Fellside]

On 23/02/2023 at 12:33, Ferret664 said:

I agree as such but most youngsters now seem to be those inexperienced coming through in their 30,40s ect who like you said come through clay shooting . The problem with clay shooters as well is every clay can be shot at and they take that into the field too! Every pheasant is fine to shoot as they haven't been taught any better 

Equally concerning - is that they don’t have a clay ground shooting frame around them for safe direction. I’ve seen too many close birds shot, but also unsafe birds. A strong 1 to 1 word of advice is often needed. 

[grahamch]

Used to use 7/8 no7 Hull Jigh Pheasant through my Alex Martin Caledonia 20 bore for years and killed most stuff at sporting ranges including and r&l at Greylag with the last 2 shots l pbt through it. Sadly sold gun during a house move. Hull no longer do a no7 20 bore loads.

Guns at my current syndicate mostly use 30g or 32g 5 or 6s. But a few use 34g 5 or 4s largely l think due influence of the idiots who try to shoot extreme pheasants.

[Fellside]

Those big loads of 4 (which are usually continental and closer to a 3) are pretty useless for the tall stuff anyway. They have very sparse patterns at range - not many pellets in them. A good 30 gram 5 (UK size) is a really capable load. I’ve seen it kill very good birds many a time. Of course a lot of people use severe chokes for average ‘tree toppers’ and that’s completely unnecessary also. 

[roger M1CDQ]

Im very new to the shooting scene and only just been out on my first shoot as a beater at the end of the season. One Gentleman  shooting  was making some outstanding shots and leaving  others to fly by. I found out later he was only shooting 19g home loads in either a 16 or 20ga. He was picking his shots and leaving other for another day. 
Im learning on the clays at the moment. So when i do go shooting Birds. I want to be confident I make a clean humane kill. I don't want a cloud of feather or just to wing it. But I also  dont wat to be spitting shot out  while eating it lol. 
Im spend  a lot of time reading and learning. watching and learning. but what ever i do I want to make sure Im safe. I would rather miss a few or not even take the shot and be safe and hit everything and  be unsafe. I have a hell of a lot to learn. Watching some youtube vids from our cousin across the pond. more often the ethos is hit them hard and heavy with as much shot as poss. Though i do think they want them minced and tenderised before it hits the ground.  
  

[Smudger687]

12 hours ago, roger M1CDQ said:

Im very new to the shooting scene and only just been out on my first shoot as a beater at the end of the season. One Gentleman  shooting  was making some outstanding shots and leaving  others to fly by. I found out later he was only shooting 19g home loads in either a 16 or 20ga. He was picking his shots and leaving other for another day. 
Im learning on the clays at the moment. So when i do go shooting Birds. I want to be confident I make a clean humane kill. I don't want a cloud of feather or just to wing it. But I also  dont wat to be spitting shot out  while eating it lol. 
Im spend  a lot of time reading and learning. watching and learning. but what ever i do I want to make sure Im safe. I would rather miss a few or not even take the shot and be safe and hit everything and  be unsafe. I have a hell of a lot to learn. Watching some youtube vids from our cousin across the pond. more often the ethos is hit them hard and heavy with as much shot as poss. Though i do think they want them minced and tenderised before it hits the ground.  
  

You say that now, but if you've paid good money for a day and you've blanked on a drive or two, and you're now on the last drive and all the birds are just out of range, you may end up re-evaluating your commitment to taking only the most sure shots! A heavy cartridge may well tear the bird up, but it's as humane a kill as you could hope for. 

I should state in advance that I have little to no interest in driven shooting, but my own (unpopular) opinion on this matter is to use whatever cartridge you feel comfortable with. If that means 36g 4's and tight chokes, fill your boots, and if it tears the birds up, so what? Putting food on the table isn't the point of a driven day. 

 

[London Best]

26 minutes ago, Smudger687 said:

You say that now, but if you've paid good money for a day and you've blanked on a drive or two, and you're now on the last drive and all the birds are just out of range, you may end up re-evaluating your commitment to taking only the most sure shots! A heavy cartridge may well tear the bird up, but it's as humane a kill as you could hope for. 

I should state in advance that I have little to no interest in driven shooting, but my own (unpopular) opinion on this matter is to use whatever cartridge you feel comfortable with. If that means 36g 4's and tight chokes, fill your boots, and if it tears the birds up, so what? Putting food on the table isn't the point of a driven day. 

 

What a terrible outlook.

[Smudger687]

13 minutes ago, London Best said:

What a terrible outlook.

Well I would expect you to disagree with anything I say, and you didn't disappoint.

[Scully]

14 minutes ago, London Best said:

What a terrible outlook.

🙂Quite. But valid points nonetheless. 

[Old farrier]

It’s rather sad that driven shooting has become so commercialised you buy the day and split the cost between the team equally 

that’s the problem 

you get one greedy person who wants to shoot more than his share to get his money’s worth (usually a good shot)

and then the rest shoot anything to make there share or they end up paying for mr greedy 

alternatively if a good team leaves all the rubbish and low birds and they don’t make the bag number that’s usually paid for in advance they will rarely get a refund on the numbers although they will be expected to pay for overages 

personally would like to see some changes in how the corporate driven system is handled 

mot can be even worse if you take a odd place with a team that you don’t know and fill a place 

just my thoughts on it 

of 

[Fellside]

7 hours ago, Smudger687 said:

You say that now, but if you've paid good money for a day and you've blanked on a drive or two, and you're now on the last drive and all the birds are just out of range, you may end up re-evaluating your commitment to taking only the most sure shots! A heavy cartridge may well tear the bird up, but it's as humane a kill as you could hope for. 

I should state in advance that I have little to no interest in driven shooting, but my own (unpopular) opinion on this matter is to use whatever cartridge you feel comfortable with. If that means 36g 4's and tight chokes, fill your boots, and if it tears the birds up, so what? Putting food on the table isn't the point of a driven day. 

 

Strange ..?!

[Poor Shot]

8 hours ago, Smudger687 said:

You say that now, but if you've paid good money for a day and you've blanked on a drive or two, and you're now on the last drive and all the birds are just out of range, you may end up re-evaluating your commitment to taking only the most sure shots! A heavy cartridge may well tear the bird up, but it's as humane a kill as you could hope for. 

I should state in advance that I have little to no interest in driven shooting, but my own (unpopular) opinion on this matter is to use whatever cartridge you feel comfortable with. If that means 36g 4's and tight chokes, fill your boots, and if it tears the birds up, so what? Putting food on the table isn't the point of a driven day. 

 

I kind of feel you there..

I'd be pretty ****** if I'd paid £100's or possibly £1000's for a day and all I had over me all day were birds that were so close you could touch the tail feathers or micro dots in the sky.

You're paying for a day's sport so it's up to the keeper to put sporting birds over you. If they can't then you certainly need to be asking questions when it comes to handing over the money at the end of the day.

I'm sure your interpretation of what is considered too low or too high will become a little fogged through frustration and some birds may be shot a little closer or further than what's traditional.

Fortunately I've not been in that situation to date and most keepers IME will bend over backwards to accommodate anyone who hasn't had their fair share of shots.

[Smudger687]

1 hour ago, Fellside said:

Strange ..?!

Why strange?