True or False

[mossy835]

out shooting today talking to a chap and he said. after the lead ban if you have some lead carts left over.you can use them till there gone,and then go on to steel carts.

[team tractor]

I read they’re illegal instantly IF it happens. They’re still selling plenty . 

[Centrepin]

It'll all depend on who you are.

[Red696]

But isn’t the question, who is going to catch you using them?

[JohnfromUK]

The talk I have heard is of an 'up to' 5 year 'run in' period during which time you can (where shoots allow) continue to use lead.  It isn't set in stone yet, but that's the rumour I heard

[Conor O'Gorman]

BASC update here:

https://basc.org.uk/new-consultation-launched-on-lead-ammunition/

[Scully]

7 hours ago, mossy835 said:

out shooting today talking to a chap and he said. after the lead ban if you have some lead carts left over.you can use them till there gone,and then go on to steel carts.

Think it through. 

[marsh man]

7 hours ago, mossy835 said:

out shooting today talking to a chap and he said. after the lead ban if you have some lead carts left over.you can use them till there gone,and then go on to steel carts.

The only way you would ever stop using lead shells is when you can no longer buy the shop bought cartridges or the shot to load your own , if what you say was fact then on paper you have got enough till it become law , even then old habits die hard .

[Scully]

Once they’re banned they’re banned, regardless of how much you’ve stockpiled. 

[ShootingEgg]

Surely the wording phase out tells you ( us ) all we need to know. At the end of 5 years lead is out 

[Feltwad]

When lead shot goes so does muzzle loading  and the black powder hammer guns steel shot and other types will soon ruin a Damascus barrel 

Feltwad

[marsh man]

21 hours ago, ShootingEgg said:

Surely the wording phase out tells you ( us ) all we need to know. At the end of 5 years lead is out 

I take it that when lead is phased out in the years ahead, this will involve all forms of shotgun shooting including clays as well as game , if this was the case then there would be no need for the lead cartridge sellers to stock any more when a date is finally given , this would then be the time when they would be hard to come by as there would be no need in stoking something that you can no longer use , or legally no longer use , MM

[Conor O'Gorman]

Whatever your views are on the HSE restriction proposals please make sure you add them to the general comments section of the following response form by 10 December 2023.

https://consultations.hse.gov.uk/crd-reach/lead-in-ammunition/consultation/

Less than 3,000 responses to the last HSE consultation put a spanner in the works as they were only expecting a few hundred responses at most (based on the number of responses submitted by hunters and others from across the whole of the EU to similar restriction proposals by the European Chemicals Agency) and that resulted in a 9 month delay to this, the last HSE consultation before recommendations are then submitted to the Defra minister for consideration.

[JohnfromUK]

6 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Whatever your views are on the HSE restriction proposals please make sure you add them to the general comments section of the following response form by 10 December 2023.

Done.

[HantsRob]

Connor that may be suitable for a separate thread to gain traction. 
 

side note; does this mean practical shotgun would cease to be if lead was banned?

[Robden]

So in a few year's time after lead has been banned, all clay shooting grounds will be red, because of the rusting steel.  I can only assume that the rusting steel is good for the water course, because the 'powers that be' would have surely looked into this........wouldn't they?!?

[Conor O'Gorman]

13 hours ago, HantsRob said:

Connor that may be suitable for a separate thread to gain traction. 
 

side note; does this mean practical shotgun would cease to be if lead was banned?

Thanks, there is another thread on this here: https://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/topic/439018-hse-final-lead-ammunition-consultation-launched/ and I think that is about as much traction as it will get - i.e. a few questions or confirmed responses to the actual consultation, and mostly comments about BASC.

Considering your question on practical shotgun, the HSE is proposing that lead ammunition could continue to be used for target shooting on grounds that are approved under HSE guidelines/rules, with the exception of lead shot. If that were the case then lead ammunition for practical shotgun would be limited to slugs. However, if the HSE proposals are revised to allow the continued use of lead shot on approved grounds then practical shotgun with lead shot could also be used on such grounds. At least that is my understanding of it so far. Hopefully many with an interest in practical shotgun will respond to the consultation.

 

[rbrowning2]

4 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Thanks, there is another thread on this here: https://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/topic/439018-hse-final-lead-ammunition-consultation-launched/ and I think that is about as much traction as it will get - i.e. a few questions or confirmed responses to the actual consultation, and mostly comments about BASC.

Considering your question on practical shotgun, the HSE is proposing that lead ammunition could continue to be used for target shooting on grounds that are approved under HSE guidelines/rules, with the exception of lead shot. If that were the case then lead ammunition for practical shotgun would be limited to slugs. However, if the HSE proposals are revised to allow the continued use of lead shot on approved grounds then practical shotgun with lead shot could also be used on such grounds. At least that is my understanding of it so far. Hopefully many with an interest in practical shotgun will respond to the consultation.

 

Assuming manufacturing consider it is worth while loading lead shot cartridges or importers importing them for what is a very small niche sport practical shotgun and then what price would they be?

steel shot for practical shotgun shooting at steel plates, no thanks.

Who will approve the HSE guidelines/rules? nobody approves ranges now, then at what cost?

Have completed the HSE consultation.

 

Edited November 1, 2023 by rbrowning2

[Gerry78]

On 28/10/2023 at 14:49, mossy835 said:

out shooting today talking to a chap and he said. after the lead ban if you have some lead carts left over.you can use them till there gone,and then go on to steel carts.

What I’ve been told is once the lead ban comes in there will be cut off date to stop using them Reason being is shops stocks manufacturing companies etc Now this information not gospel just couple dealers have mentioned it 

[Conor O'Gorman]

4 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

Assuming manufacturing consider it is worth while loading lead shot cartridges or importers importing them for what is a very small niche sport practical shotgun and then what price would they be?

steel shot for practical shotgun shooting at steel plates, no thanks.

Who will approve the HSE guidelines/rules? nobody approves ranges now, then at what cost?

Have completed the HSE consultation.

 

If the HSE proposals are revised to allow lead shot to continue on approved grounds then grounds that operate practical shotgun could continue to use lead shot if they get approved status. I don't understand the question around prices TBH - if there were a ban based on current proposals then no lead shot could be used on approved grounds, only slugs - but if lead shot could continue on approved grounds then demand would be similar to that currently assuming most practical shotgun grounds could meet the approval criteria. As regards approval for HSE guidelines/rules and costs for that I don't think that has been developed yet. These are proposals and a lengthy process ahead for anything concrete to develop. That said now is the time for people to respond to the consultation and thank you for being amongst the few so far that have done so.

[Conor O'Gorman]

Considering the other comments above speculating about what has been proposed, a summary as follows:

• Lead airgun pellets – no restrictions proposed.
• Lead shot for live quarry and target shooting – proposed ban within five years or less, depending on consultation outcome.
• Rifle ammunition for live quarry shooting – no restrictions proposed, but this could change depending on consultation outcome.
• Rifle ammunition for target shooting – can continue on approved ranges where mitigation measures for lead removal are in place, with a two-year grace period.

The full HSE opinion on its proposals is here:

https://consultations.hse.gov.uk/crd-reach/lead-in-ammunition/user_uploads/lead-in-ammunition-restriction-opinion-document---draft-sea-opinion.pdf

A HSE background document is here:

https://consultations.hse.gov.uk/crd-reach/lead-in-ammunition/user_uploads/lead-in-ammunition-background-document---draft-sea.pdf

The HSE does not create laws, it can only make recommendations and submit these to the Defra secretary of state for consideration. If any HSE recommendations are taken forward by the government as draft legislation, and those legislative proposals are disproportionate and will damage shooting, we can all lobby for them to be revised.

[Dave at kelton]

On 31/10/2023 at 12:32, Feltwad said:

When lead shot goes so does muzzle loading  and the black powder hammer guns steel shot and other types will soon ruin a Damascus barrel 

Feltwad

Sorry but I disagree. I have used bismuth when shooting ducks and will simply be using it on all days for all quarry. I don’t fire many shots on a muzzle loading day so cost isn’t an issue.

[harkom]

1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

• Lead airgun pellets – no restrictions proposed.
• Lead shot for live quarry and target shooting – proposed ban within five years or less, depending on consultation outcome.
• Rifle ammunition for live quarry shooting – no restrictions proposed, but this could change depending on consultation outcome.
• Rifle ammunition for target shooting – can continue on approved ranges where mitigation measures for lead removal are in place, with a two-year grace period.

"no restrictions proposed" is the bsac "statement" for two out of four sectors...ahemm...(at the moment). Suck that one up, and ignore this organisation's record on support for other sectors.

"Rifle ammunition lead restrictions ? "  I hear you say. Well the Forestry Commission has imposed a restriction on lead bullet for stalking on "their" ground ie you will use copper based heads. .... You might ask yourself which is the more toxic to the tree when/if hit? And are all FC stalkers using non-toxic bullets as part of the FC's drive to maximise deer cull ? I can't say if SNH are any different in their drive to exterminate red deer but perhaps others could comment.

"depending on consultation outcome" ...huh?  you're having a laugh aren't you.

Read point four .... and extrapolate if you are hoping for any derogation for headshot/projectiles.

[Conor O'Gorman]

11 hours ago, harkom said:

"no restrictions proposed" is the bsac "statement" for two out of four sectors...ahemm...(at the moment). Suck that one up, and ignore this organisation's record on support for other sectors.

"Rifle ammunition lead restrictions ? "  I hear you say. Well the Forestry Commission has imposed a restriction on lead bullet for stalking on "their" ground ie you will use copper based heads. .... You might ask yourself which is the more toxic to the tree when/if hit? And are all FC stalkers using non-toxic bullets as part of the FC's drive to maximise deer cull ? I can't say if SNH are any different in their drive to exterminate red deer but perhaps others could comment.

"depending on consultation outcome" ...huh?  you're having a laugh aren't you.

Read point four .... and extrapolate if you are hoping for any derogation for headshot/projectiles.

Have you responded to the consultation? If not, please click the link below to get started.

https://consultations.hse.gov.uk/crd-reach/lead-in-ammunition/consultation/

 

[rbrowning2]

On 01/11/2023 at 20:01, Conor O'Gorman said:

If the HSE proposals are revised to allow lead shot to continue on approved grounds then grounds that operate practical shotgun could continue to use lead shot if they get approved status. I don't understand the question around prices TBH - if there were a ban based on current proposals then no lead shot could be used on approved grounds, only slugs - but if lead shot could continue on approved grounds then demand would be similar to that currently assuming most practical shotgun grounds could meet the approval criteria. As regards approval for HSE guidelines/rules and costs for that I don't think that has been developed yet. These are proposals and a lengthy process ahead for anything concrete to develop. That said now is the time for people to respond to the consultation and thank you for being amongst the few so far that have done so.

Thank you for your reply, re price the point i was trying to make was if lead shot is banned for all but a very few “approved” grounds then they would become a niche product, similar to the .410 now and hence would probably be expensive as is the ,410 cartridges today.