BASC response to HSE lead ammunition consultation

[TIGHTCHOKE]

1 minute ago, grahamch said:

Sadly this thread has been dominated by a few negative, BASC bashing old farts who just repeatadly pick fault.

High time they either grew up or shut up or were barred from posting.

Go for it.....................................

[Newbie to this]

4 minutes ago, grahamch said:

Sadly this thread has been dominated by a few negative, BASC bashing old farts who just repeatadly pick fault.

High time they either grew up or shut up or were barred from posting.

You're not the State of Colorado are you 

[clangerman]

48 minutes ago, grahamch said:

Sadly this thread has been dominated by a few negative, BASC bashing old farts who just repeatadly pick fault.

High time they either grew up or shut up or were barred from posting.

fortunately the wrath from above on here are their own man and definitely not blind! 

[Conor O'Gorman]

11 hours ago, Konor said:

I refute your allegation that I have continued belligerently to bash BASC and challenge you to back up your claims with evidence to the contrary. 
Your childish personal attacks reflect poorly on you and your insistence for censorship is unbecoming for someone who is employed to protect the best interests of shooting. 
BASC is trying hard to make the best of a bad job after dropping the ball early on but your reluctance to acknowledge its’ and your own shortcomings in dealing with the matter is the embarrassment that you should be acknowledging .

Your failure to consult your own members regarding the practicalities of your agreement to further restrictions on the use of lead shot reflects the arrogance you display when making personal attacks on those who question BASCs motives and decision making.

Conor if you can’t stand the heat get out of the kitchen or alternatively if you can’t acknowledge mistakes or answer the points made don’t personally attack the posters.

 

You have stated that "BASC chose not to fight the lead ban and let down the shooting community" and that is incorrect because BASC has been fighting lead bans for decades and there is no lead ban. You are entitled to your views, as am I, but please stick to facts. Given your apparent lack of understanding on policy developments around lead ammunition, and at risk of repetition, please read the OP summary and perhaps the full response from BASC to the HSE from the link provided in the OP. 

[welsh1]

59 minutes ago, grahamch said:

Sadly this thread has been dominated by a few negative, BASC bashing old farts who just repeatadly pick fault.

High time they either grew up or shut up or were barred from posting.

This site is free speech within the forum rules, if someone wants to be on here representing an association then they should expect to be questioned and probed, this forum is not BASC's mouthpiece, members of this site don't just take statements for granted, and will question and argue their point.

As for the rest of your post,you are entitled to your opinion.but the ban button is not yours to use.

[Konor]

11 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

You have stated that "BASC chose not to fight the lead ban and let down the shooting community" and that is incorrect because BASC has been fighting lead bans for decades and there is no lead ban. You are entitled to your views, as am I, but please stick to facts. Given your apparent lack of understanding on policy developments around lead ammunition, and at risk of repetition, please read the OP summary and perhaps the full response from BASC to the HSE from the link provided in the OP. 

Perhaps you should consider sticking to the facts and withdraw your assertion that I have continued to belligerently bash BASC. I take it that you consider promoting the voluntary movement away from the use of lead shot is equivalent to fighting the proposed ban on the use of lead shot

Edited December 20, 2023 by Konor
Addition

[Conor O'Gorman]

23 hours ago, Scully said:

I’ve read it Conor, and to be honest don’t feel embarrassed at all. 
The post of Konor sums it up perfectly really; there are many many things out there which are perfectly legal and inhaled and drunk by many many more people on much much more numerous occasions than eat game! 
If you genuinely believe this is about ‘potential health risks’ to human health then perhaps it’s not me whom should be embarrassed. 

I think you know well that 'whataboutery' is not valid on this policy issue. The HSE was tasked by the government to review lead in ammunition amongst a myriad other substances and this was all related to post-Brexit trade with the EU. BASC has opposed the HSE proposals and made its position clear as per summary in OP. And progress made since last year's proposals. The policy developments and BASC's work have all been detailed on the forum since March 2021. Please read the OP summary and full BASC response to HSE because it seems to me that you have not actually read it properly given your focus on human health.

[Konor]

12 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

I think you know well that 'whataboutery' is not valid on this policy issue. The HSE was tasked by the government to review lead in ammunition amongst a myriad other substances and this was all related to post-Brexit trade with the EU. BASC has opposed the HSE proposals and made its position clear as per summary in OP. And progress made since last year's proposals. The policy developments and BASC's work have all been detailed on the forum since March 2021. Please read the OP summary and full BASC response to HSE because it seems to me that you have not actually read it properly given your focus on human health.

The whataboutery as you call it puts into context the hypocrisy surrounding the exaggerated risks involved in consuming lead shot game and the greater risks linked to smoking and the consumption of alcohol. 
No comment to substantiate your earlier personal remarks or apology ?? 

Edited December 20, 2023 by Konor
Addition

[Conor O'Gorman]

22 hours ago, Weihrauch17 said:

I binned BASC off when John Swift tried to shaft us and then denied it despite the leaked minutes, a decision I haven't regretted.  However the theme has continued.  To agree to a Lead ban with no prior consultation whatsoever with your members is an appalling betrayal.  Nobody has ever been made ill from eating lead shot Game, I have eaten Game for forty years and can honestly say I have never knowingly consumed a pellet or crunched one.  I remove any pellets as part of the preparation process.  Maybe you should have done the surveys before you sold us down the river.  If you had opposed any ban with factual data and then lost the worst that could have happened is what you have agreed to with absolutely no fight.

More urban myths about being shafted and leaked minutes etc. It is ridiculous. There was no agreement to a lead ban - BASC has been fighting lead bans for decades - and there is no lead ban. Again, as per response above to Konor and Scully, please read the OP and the full BASC response to HSE because it seems to me that you have not done so, given your comments.

[Scully]

2 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

More urban myths about being shafted and leaked minutes etc. It is ridiculous. There was no agreement to a lead ban - BASC has been fighting lead bans for decades - and there is no lead ban. Again, as per response above to Konor and Scully, please read the OP and the full BASC response to HSE because it seems to me that you have not done so, given your comments.

How has BASC contacted the HSE? I’ve had a search online and on their website, but can’t see how to make enquiries through their ‘contact’ platform other than those regarding the reporting of workplace practises. 
It is the same for the FSA. 

[Konor]

21 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

More urban myths about being shafted and leaked minutes etc. It is ridiculous. There was no agreement to a lead ban - BASC has been fighting lead bans for decades - and there is no lead ban. Again, as per response above to Konor and Scully, please read the OP and the full BASC response to HSE because it seems to me that you have not done so, given your comments.

So the proposed voluntary movement away from the use of lead shot was actually part of the fight against further restrictions on the use of lead shot

By proposing this ,as stated earlier in one of my posts,you emboldened the anti field sports organisations which used the proposition to strengthen their case for the total ban on the use of lead shot.

i have read BASCs full response to the HSE however it does not cover the points I raised earlier nor your earlier claims that I continue to belligerently bash BASC.

Conor could you please substantiate your assertion that I continue to belligerently bash BASC or apologise for falsely accusing me of this ,presumably to distract readers from your failure to acknowledge the points I raised.

Edited December 20, 2023 by Konor
Addition

[Weihrauch17]

1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

More urban myths about being shafted and leaked minutes etc. It is ridiculous. There was no agreement to a lead ban - BASC has been fighting lead bans for decades - and there is no lead ban. Again, as per response above to Konor and Scully, please read the OP and the full BASC response to HSE because it seems to me that you have not done so, given your comments.

Did you sue Shooting Times at the time for publishing the leaked minutes?  BASC have agreed to a voluntary lead ban by 2025 or is that claim ridiculous too and the whole thing has been one big misunderstanding?

[Konor]

55 minutes ago, Konor said:

So the proposed voluntary movement away from the use of lead shot was actually part of the fight against further restrictions on the use of lead shot

By proposing this ,as stated earlier in one of my posts,you emboldened the anti field sports organisations which used the proposition to strengthen their case for the total ban on the use of lead shot.

i have read BASCs full response to the HSE however it does not cover the points I raised earlier nor your earlier claims that I continue to belligerently bash BASC.

Conor could you please substantiate your assertion that I continue to belligerently bash BASC or apologise for falsely accusing me of this ,presumably to distract readers from your failure to acknowledge the points I raised.

No substantiation and no apology. I reckon I’ve got the measure of the man.

[shaun4860]

Why did BASC sign up to a voluntary ban on lead shot without the backing of its members?

Remember, the same members that pay BASC’s wages 🤷🏻‍♂️

As to a previous poster who said they had never bitten lead shot…..

I have in a game pie bought from a game fair.

It proved to me that I would rather bite down on a piece of lead shot than steel.

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, shaun4860 said:

Why did BASC sign up to a voluntary ban on lead shot without the backing of its members?

Conor answered this question in a  previous thread. 

'BASC doesn't work like that' 

It's a constantly recurring theme, where he will come on PW, tell you how great things are being achieved by 'The voice of shooting' and anyone who dares to question or challenge BASC, gets insulted, threatened, or labelled as an 'anti shooting troll' 😂

Conor is obviously an intelligent man, and he clearly 0likes his job, but seems to go for the insults a little too quickly for my liking. 

It shows immaturity, and a combative stance, which I find quite surprising for a professional, and a spokesman for multi million pound members company. 

[Konor]

I wonder how John Anderton would fit into the organisation that is BASC. A man of a different calibre altogether. I think things would be dealt with in a more straightforward way if he or the likes of him were at the helm.

Edited December 21, 2023 by Konor

[London Best]

7 hours ago, shaun4860 said:

 

As to a previous poster who said they had never bitten lead shot…..

I have in a game pie bought from a game fair.

It proved to me that I would rather bite down on a piece of lead shot than steel.

Anyone who has never had lead shot in their mouth has never eaten much game.

[Fellside]

Everyone is entitled to their opinions of course - and if members on PW hold official statements to question then so be it. I have had my say on this matter and others many times. However the tone and language being used on this occasion does not platform the shooting community or especially PW in a favourable way. It is this kind of ‘behaviour’ (not the points being made) which needs to be moderated - and urgently. 

[Rewulf]

33 minutes ago, Fellside said:

However the tone and language being used on this occasion does not platform the shooting community or especially PW in a favourable

I would say the tone and rude responses of the BASC spokesman do his organisation no favours either ?

Are we picking fault over nothing ? I think not.

[ehb102]

@Rewulfhas a good point. I went into discussions with a BASC representative in good faith. I have never been treated so rudely and with such incompetence. A refusal to engage with the issue, to reply to the questions, to even acknowledge the points being raised. "Take this or leave this" was the answer. So to anyone namecalling BASC critics, we have good point and good reason to be unhappy. 

[Graham M]

14 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

There was no agreement to a lead ban - BASC has been fighting lead bans for decades -

 

Sorry Conor but this is simply not true. Over 10 years ago John Swift published an article in one of the shooting magazines in which he made the case for turning away from lead shot. 

One of the phrases he used in the article was "We should be seen to be doing the right thing". Meaning using non-lead.

I actually reproduced the article word for word on this very forum and was taken to task by some of the BASC members on here who accused me of BASC bashing...........

As it was it turned out to be the precursor for John Swift's anti-lead campaign, which seems to have carried on after he left office and joined forces with the like of Mark Avery to ban lead -

 https://markavery.info/2023/11/29/guest-blog-lead-ammunition-the-way-forward-by-john-swift/

[Krico woodcock]

4 hours ago, London Best said:

Anyone who has never had lead shot in their mouth has never eaten much game.

EXACTLY.. we eat ALOT of game in our house.  I have two daughters,  and every time  either one  find a pellet,  its called a "treasure".. they easy found whilst eating,  just remove from mouth.  And even if you do swallow a pellet, its not going to do you any harm only pass through.. this scientific research of eating game shot with lead risk to human health is actually nuts!!

[Weihrauch17]

3 minutes ago, Krico woodcock said:

EXACTLY.. we eat ALOT of game in our house.  I have two daughters,  and every time  either one  find a pellet,  its called a "treasure".. they easy found whilst eating,  just remove from mouth.  And even if you do swallow a pellet, its not going to do you any harm only pass through.. this scientific research of eating game shot with lead risk to human health is actually nuts!!

I always just breast Pheasants and dice for a casserole and I remove any pellets before hand. I find very few.

[Conor O'Gorman]

I think this thread has truly run it's course and if anyone has outstanding questions for me please feel free to PM me or email me at conor.ogorman@basc.org.uk

[Gordon R]

It probably has run its' course, but what would be the point of an email or message. You don't give a straight answer on here, so why would you do so with message or email?

The thread could run for another 10 pages and we would still be no wiser. We are asked to read your previous posts as if they shed some light. 

Read Graham M's post - sums it up nicely.