Mr Bates v The Post Office

[armsid]

Isee their is a program on tv about the Horizon scandel which put Postmasters/mistresses into jail for mistakes in bookkeeping i wonder if the true human cost will be shown and the true way the Gov. treated them or willit be biased and the truth not shown 

[Gordon R]

The Post Office knew the Horizon system was fatally flawed almost 20 years ago. 

[oldypigeonpopper]

hello, Mr Bates and the Post Office Scandal starts 1 st Jan 2024, a sort of Docu Drama, it will be  interesting to watch but i doubt any of those involved working at the PO who knew at the time will ever face justice

Edited December 21, 2023 by oldypigeonpopper

[12gauge82]

I believe this scandal must be one of the biggest stains on the uk legal system in modern times. The fact so many innocent people were convicted, says to me there is something very wrong with our courts and in all honesty destroys my faith and confidence in the system.

[ditchman]

1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said:

I believe this scandal must be one of the biggest stains on the uk legal system in modern times. The fact so many innocent people were convicted, says to me there is something very wrong with our courts and in all honesty destroys my faith and confidence in the system.

this ........totally appaling

[old man]

1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said:

I believe this scandal must be one of the biggest stains on the uk legal system in modern times. The fact so many innocent people were convicted, says to me there is something very wrong with our courts and in all honesty destroys my faith and confidence in the system.

IMHO, just a stark illustration of the depths that we have been forced to achieve, we haven't reached the bottom yet?

[JohnfromUK]

There has been a long 'problem' over the Post Office.  About 30-40 years ago a friend discovered he and many others in his immediate area in London had been losing mail containing financial items, mainly dividend cheques.  These cheques were being 'cashed' at an overseas owned (Nigerian I think) currency exchange bureau in London (which shouldn't be able to happen as they are 'crossed cheques' which should only be payable into the payee's account).  My friend could get no help from the police who maintained it was a Post Office matter - and none from the Post Office who simply flatly denied it - Post wasn't stolen was the line. 

He hand circulated a flier locally and it turned out that many neighbours/small businesses locally had the same problem, but because neither police nor post office would act, nothing had been done.  It turned out that many £1000's had been stolen this way. 

In the end, one Post Worker was dismissed (never charged) because as the cheques had been cashed through 'bank error' in allowing the cheques to be cashed, the banks had to co-operate - and they wouldn't (because they were at fault).  It was believed he/she was 'connected' with the Nigerian owned currency exchange bureau.

In the end, no one was charged and the criminal simply lost his/her job.  The currency exchanged continued to operate (they couldn't act against them as there was no evidence without the banks co-operating) and my friend lost around £3500, and others similar amounts.

The Post Office was considered 'above suspicion'.

[wymberley]

It's OK, Guys, we'll get there. It's just that we're two and a quarter centuries behind the French.

[GHE]

This scandal was first raised by "Computer Weekly" And then "Private Eye" took it up and campaigned for years to put matters right.  If it hadn't been for them, this would never have been dealt with, the criminal justice system is supposed to address matters like this but doesn't, and simply isn't fit for purpose.

As matters stand, a lot of the innocent have now had their convictions overturned but there are many more who are still waiting . . .

[old man]

2 hours ago, wymberley said:

It's OK, Guys, we'll get there. It's just that we're two and a quarter centuries behind the French.

Thanks bud, that's reassuring to know.

[Agriv8]

It boils down to the company being payed millions to supply a computer system were also allowed to be judge and jury in auditing any shortcomings.

shocking

Agriv8

[12gauge82]

39 minutes ago, Agriv8 said:

It boils down to the company being payed millions to supply a computer system were also allowed to be judge and jury in auditing any shortcomings.

shocking

Agriv8

Surely anyone who knowingly gave false auditing results leading to convictions could be convicted for perverting the course of justice.

[smokingdragon]

Very similar to the flawed software that caused Chinooks to crash, it was easier to blame the pilots than blame software that had millions invested in it.

https://www.computerweekly.com/feature/Chinook-helicopter-disaster-computer-software-failure-or-pilot-error

 

[amateur]

Almost every new computer system that I have ever used over the years has had to be debugged by the users.

Fujitsu would no doubt protest that they supplied it to the Post Office specification, but the Post Office managers who didn't pursue Fujitsu should be hung out to dry.

1 hour ago, Agriv8 said:

It boils down to the company being payed millions to supply a computer system were also allowed to be judge and jury in auditing any shortcomings.

shocking

Agriv8

 

Edited December 22, 2023 by amateur

[old man]

1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said:

Surely anyone who knowingly gave false auditing results leading to convictions could be convicted for perverting the course of justice.

Seemingly not in the UK? Powerful friends are all you need?

[discobob]

2 minutes ago, old man said:

Powerful friends are all you need?

Or powerful members of the board/shareholders

[old man]

2 minutes ago, discobob said:

Or powerful members of the board/shareholders

Those too?

[McSpredder]

On 21/12/2023 at 08:35, 12gauge82 said:

I believe this scandal must be one of the biggest stains on the uk legal system in modern times. The fact so many innocent people were convicted, says to me there is something very wrong with our courts and in all honesty destroys my faith and confidence in the system.

Gilbert & Sullivan  ("Iolanthe"), 1882 

"The Law is the true embodiment
Of everything that's excellent.
It has no kind of fault or flaw....."

 

Lord Denning (senior member of the judiciary), 1988

"It is better that some innocent men remain in jail than that the integrity of the English judicial system be impugned".  

 

Gilbert & Sullivan words were intended as humour, while Lord Denning was deadly serious.   Maybe nothing much has changed.

 

[Yellow Bear]

1 hour ago, discobob said:

Or powerful members of the board/shareholders

Not in this case as :-

It was not privatised until about 2015

It happened mainly under Blair's government who introduced the software in 2000.

[amateur]

29 minutes ago, Yellow Bear said:

Not in this case as :-

It was not privatised until about 2015

It happened mainly under Blair's government who introduced the software in 2000.

So another Labour FUBAR.

I see that Walter Mitty Starmer has dressed himself up in uniform to visit the troops in Estonia.

[Agriv8]

3 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

Surely anyone who knowingly gave false auditing results leading to convictions could be convicted for perverting the course of justice.

You would have thought so but those that ran the report were looking at the same records that were incomplete and inaccurate. Several lawyers who were payed by the post office to convict sub postmasters had doubts but conveniently when they got called in front of the committee managed to have a correct answers or had forgotten 

i take a point about bugs in software but the management and software suppliers spent millions rather than taking a look at there own systems and processes and auditing them.

Agriv8

Ps big it f’ups are not only a labour issue 

16 minutes ago, amateur said:

So another Labour FUBAR.

I see that Walter Mitty Starmer has dressed himself up in uniform to visit the troops in Estonia.

48 minutes ago, Yellow Bear said:

Not in this case as :-

It was not privatised until about 2015

It happened mainly under Blair's government who introduced the software in 2000.

Done by tender IIRC  and vendors likely picked because they were the cheapest Fujitsu at the time had a policy to bid low and increase prices to cover any change to the contract AND MAKE PROFIT that way - no support that it blew. It’s budget then released full of bugs!

[Yellow Bear]

30 minutes ago, Agriv8 said:

Ps big it f’ups are not only a labour issue 

True but they are not, by default it seems, a Tory issue either.

IIRC the NHS system, which they are still trying to fix so it works, was another B Liar/ Broon initiative.

[JohnfromUK]

27 minutes ago, amateur said:

So another Labour FUBAR.

Whilst I am no supporter of Labour (or any of it's leaders/MPs/Officials etc.), the real fault in this lies with the Post Office management, not Gov't.

The Post Office introduced a new system.  All new systems have 'bugs'.  They should have been aware of this and diligently investigating any inaccuracies.  When reports of 'errors' and 'discrepancies' were received these were not investigated properly and were dismissed as fraud. 

The number of instances over a prolonged period should have been a big Red Flag - but it was ignored/dismissed.  There is all probability that the investigations carried out were (at best) inadequate, and very probably deliberately 'rigged' as a cover up.  Senior management either remained blissfully 'unaware', (which is gross negligence of duty), or participated in 'cover ups'.

The blame lies squarely with the Post Office Management - and at the those involved should be put on trial.  All 'management' has a duty to see that the entity they are managing complies with the laws of the land and that includes the laws relating to thoroughness and accuracy of financial record keeping etc., which were clearly not being met in this case.  There is also good reason to question the auditors who were signing off accounts that contained major inaccuracies.  The purpose and duty of independent auditors is to pick these things up. 

It is difficult to know what access Fujitsu (as a software developer and supplier) had to records of possible problems/bugs.

[Gordon R]

JohnfromUK - you are correct. They can't say they were unaware of the problems with the Horizon (Fujitsu) system (strictly speaking they could and did deny this, but that was clearly untrue). They did know, people who worked within the Post Office Investigations Branch knew, as did people in outside agencies. 

[12gauge82]

4 hours ago, old man said:

Seemingly not in the UK? Powerful friends are all you need?

Yes agreed

3 hours ago, McSpredder said:

Gilbert & Sullivan  ("Iolanthe"), 1882 

"The Law is the true embodiment
Of everything that's excellent.
It has no kind of fault or flaw....."

 

Lord Denning (senior member of the judiciary), 1988

"It is better that some innocent men remain in jail than that the integrity of the English judicial system be impugned".  

 

Gilbert & Sullivan words were intended as humour, while Lord Denning was deadly serious.   Maybe nothing much has changed.

 

I'd say lord dennings words are a contradiction. If innocent men get jailed, the judicial system becomes questionable and will rightly become untrustworthy.