Isn’t shooting part of our living heritage?

[Conor O'Gorman]

The government is consulting on its approach to a global convention on safeguarding cultural heritage, and falconry is already recognised, so what about a case for shooting?

https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/news/isnt-shooting-part-of-our-living-heritage-147131/

 

[PeterHenry]

Excellent approch - culture tends to underpin law, so reinforcing it can only do good.

[Smudger687]

1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

The government is consulting on its approach to a global convention on safeguarding cultural heritage, and falconry is already recognised, so what about a case for shooting?

https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/news/isnt-shooting-part-of-our-living-heritage-147131/

 

Having a rifle above the fireplace used to be part of our cultural heritage too. Didn't seem to make much difference, our overlords want us unarmed and docile.

[Scully]

Yes, I think it is, or traditionally was, but so was hunting with hounds. 
Isn’t fishing/angling also though? 
If the definition of cruelty is an indifference to suffering, then how come Mortimer and Whitehouse Gone Fishing or Robson Greens fishing programmes receives top ratings? 

If it wasn’t for our class system I think we’d have a claim, but fox hunting, shooting and angling were once always the preserve of the wealthy and privileged, and that’s what sticks in the craw of your average Labour voter….that inherited resentment of inherited wealth and privilege. 
Whether we like it or not, that is how shooting is perceived, regardless of the fact that most practitioners nowadays, or at least a good percentage, are working class. 

Edited January 26 by Scully

[TIGHTCHOKE]

34 minutes ago, Scully said:

Yes, I think it is, or traditionally was, but so was hunting with hounds. 
Isn’t fishing/angling also though? 
If the definition of cruelty is an indifference to suffering, then how come Mortimer and Whitehouse Gone Fishing or Robson Greens fishing programmes receives top ratings? 

If it wasn’t for our class system I think we’d have a claim, but fox hunting, shooting and angling were once always the preserve of the wealthy and privileged, and that’s what sticks in the craw of your average Labour voter….that inherited resentment of inherited wealth and privilege. 
Whether we like it or not, that is how shooting is perceived, regardless of the fact that most practitioners nowadays, or at least a good percentage, are working class. 

Well put Scully, that really is what we are up against.

[Poor Shot]

37 minutes ago, Scully said:

Yes, I think it is, or traditionally was, but so was hunting with hounds. 
Isn’t fishing/angling also though? 
If the definition of cruelty is an indifference to suffering, then how come Mortimer and Whitehouse Gone Fishing or Robson Greens fishing programmes receives top ratings? 

If it wasn’t for our class system I think we’d have a claim, but fox hunting, shooting and angling were once always the preserve of the wealthy and privileged, and that’s what sticks in the craw of your average Labour voter….that inherited resentment of inherited wealth and privilege. 
Whether we like it or not, that is how shooting is perceived, regardless of the fact that most practitioners nowadays, or at least a good percentage, are working class. 

Fishing is almost certainly in the cross hairs. NRW have been attacking and removing rights and permissions from Salmon anglers for some time now. NRW are constantly meddling in what can be stocked and where. There is also a growing anti-fishing sentiment here. 

My local country park lake (which has nothing of any worth in it except for some miniscule trout and 100 tons of Canadian pondweed) recently had a lot of no fishing signs erected by a do-gooder local to the park. Completely separate from any type of park or council authority. Another park lake locally banned fishing over 15 years ago following pressure from anti-fishing locals. Shame as that had a really strong head of decent sized carp and other coarse fish in it. 

Another local lake which is on an abandoned industrial site was stocked with carp and coarse fish as a part of the clean up of the site. It's technically trespassing to fish on the site as it's owned by the coal board but it's never been enforced and the EA used to frequent the site and check for rod licenses. In the past few years anti-fishing people who live near to the lake have been aggressively engaging with the police to act on the trespass and remove anglers from the lake, a local bird watching (packham type) leading the charge. 

When shooting is gone, fishing, horse racing and greyhound racing will follow. Shortly after that will be green laning, MX riding, mountain biking and horse riding. There seems to be a massive part of the population in Wales with the mindset that anything they do not partake in shouldn't be allowed and the government are all too happy to lap this up to ensure their share the vote.   

 

Edited January 26 by Poor Shot

[Gordon R]

There does seem to be a growing intolerance of traditional sports, but no outcry against halal slaughter. Talk about hypocrites.

[Penelope]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

Yes, I think it is, or traditionally was, but so was hunting with hounds. 
Isn’t fishing/angling also though? 
If the definition of cruelty is an indifference to suffering, then how come Mortimer and Whitehouse Gone Fishing or Robson Greens fishing programmes receives top ratings? 

If it wasn’t for our class system I think we’d have a claim, but fox hunting, shooting and angling were once always the preserve of the wealthy and privileged, and that’s what sticks in the craw of your average Labour voter….that inherited resentment of inherited wealth and privilege. 
Whether we like it or not, that is how shooting is perceived, regardless of the fact that most practitioners nowadays, or at least a good percentage, are working class. 

Good post, as usual.

I have always said that coarse angling can easily be argued as the 'cruelest' of field sports.

[clangerman]

44 minutes ago, Penelope said:

Good post, as usual.

I have always said that coarse angling can easily be argued as the 'cruelest' of field sports.

I’m positive necessary and unnecessary cruelty will end up being the two yardsticks all field sports are judged on 

[PeterHenry]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

If it wasn’t for our class system I think we’d have a claim, but fox hunting, shooting and angling were once always the preserve of the wealthy and privileged, and that’s what sticks in the craw of your average Labour voter….that inherited resentment of inherited wealth and privilege. 
Whether we like it or not, that is how shooting is perceived, regardless of the fact that most practitioners nowadays, or at least a good percentage, are working class. 

It's strange though, isn't it - because it's not actually, and never has been truly the case.

I know i'm telling you how to suck eggs, but for the sake of the Internet- rabbit shooting or shooting on the foreshore were traditionally very accessible to anyone. Likewise with hunting to hounds - there was always a strong working class aspect to it. Not to mention a lot of those on horse back were farmers, and not remotely aristocratic.

Anyway, as you identified - there's a strong loathing by some,  of anything deemed remotely to be on the wrong side of the 'class struggle'.  I talked to a chap at the weekend on the train, and he was visibly furious that people had voted for things that he didn’t agree with.

[Sweet11-87]

9 minutes ago, PeterHenry said:

It's strange though, isn't it - because it's not actually, and never has been truly the case.

 

it is true though. not so much now but the roots of english hunting go all the way back and the common theme was always the haves and the have nots its stitched into our heritage. the new forest is the new forest because 1000 years ago the Normans cleared everyone out of an area to make it a royal hunting ground.

for a long long time it  was actually illegal to hunt if you were "unlanded" so while the rest of Europe and the Americas were building a culture and heritage  of  hunting for subsistence we were cementing the shooting for sport culture and romanticism of poaching. 

Even today 99% of us shoot by another's leave. France and Germany as do most of Europe have public hunting laws or designated hunting ground. In the uk you could have been  shooting for 50+ years and every shot legally taken was at the permission of someone else unless you own the land.  everywhere else you can hunt as a right unless youve given reason to not be allowed.

here you must seek and maintain permission from the landed.

[PeterHenry]

23 minutes ago, Sweet11-87 said:

it is true though. not so much now but the roots of english hunting go all the way back and the common theme was always the haves and the have nots its stitched into our heritage. the new forest is the new forest because 1000 years ago the Normans cleared everyone out of an area to make it a royal hunting ground.

for a long long time it  was actually illegal to hunt if you were "unlanded" so while the rest of Europe and the Americas were building a culture and heritage  of  hunting for subsistence we were cementing the shooting for sport culture and romanticism of poaching. 

Even today 99% of us shoot by another's leave. France and Germany as do most of Europe have public hunting laws or designated hunting ground. In the uk you could have been  shooting for 50+ years and every shot legally taken was at the permission of someone else unless you own the land.  everywhere else you can hunt as a right unless youve given reason to not be allowed.

here you must seek and maintain permission from the landed.

I was thinking more in the past 200 years, which in my experience tends to be the sort of time frame people invisage when being critical of field sports - pepole in tweed with guns and in pink coats on horse - because it often speaks more of recreation that necessity - as you said.

However we did have places until fairly recently - and in Scotland continue to I understand - where you can freely shoot, and with less fuss and performance than on the continent - the foreshore. But here in England, that most egalitarian entry to our sport vanished. Still, wildfowling clubs are fairly close to what you are describing - everymans shooting on state owned land?

[islandgun]

2 hours ago, clangerman said:

I’m positive necessary and unnecessary cruelty will end up being the two yardsticks all field sports are judged on 

Im sure the layman considers all field sports as cruel. most however, can think for themselves and realise that there are more important issues in the world and in their own lives. A high percentage eat meat and some might consider it a tad hypocritical to condemn others for harvesting their own meat in what ever legal means are available. Many of the Packham type followers will condemn and pay to end, any form of field sports and many would argue against pest control, often vegans they would see an end to all livestock farming. Conservation bodies will of course carry on using pest control measures against predators that threaten their desirable spp. All people would employ a pest controller to rid their house of rats.

Sorry to derail from OP,  I struggle to believe that shooting would be accepted as part of our culture....unless we make it an official religion 

[Sweet11-87]

2 hours ago, PeterHenry said:

I was thinking more in the past 200 years, which in my experience tends to be the sort of time frame people invisage when being critical of field sports - pepole in tweed with guns and in pink coats on horse - because it often speaks more of recreation that necessity - as you said.

However we did have places until fairly recently - and in Scotland continue to I understand - where you can freely shoot, and with less fuss and performance than on the continent - the foreshore. But here in England, that most egalitarian entry to our sport vanished. Still, wildfowling clubs are fairly close to what you are describing - everymans shooting on state owned land?

yeah maybe youre right in that respect but i still think hurdles are in place.

i guess what im saying is if you'd like to try clay's or target shooting avenues are available in a straight forward way. if for instance someone from an urban area whos maybe watched some meat eater or YouTube and becomes interested in the idea of the chase or the experience of putting meat on your plate yourself its a difficult thing to access if youre not lucky enough to have had a parent or grandparent to make your initial contact.  not as hard as it was courses, guided hunts and stalking experiences have all started to emerge but its only really recently these have become viable options.

 

[Dougy]

10 hours ago, Poor Shot said:

Fishing is almost certainly in the cross hairs. NRW have been attacking and removing rights and permissions from Salmon anglers for some time now. NRW are constantly meddling in what can be stocked and where. There is also a growing anti-fishing sentiment here. 

My local country park lake (which has nothing of any worth in it except for some miniscule trout and 100 tons of Canadian pondweed) recently had a lot of no fishing signs erected by a do-gooder local to the park. Completely separate from any type of park or council authority. Another park lake locally banned fishing over 15 years ago following pressure from anti-fishing locals. Shame as that had a really strong head of decent sized carp and other coarse fish in it. 

Another local lake which is on an abandoned industrial site was stocked with carp and coarse fish as a part of the clean up of the site. It's technically trespassing to fish on the site as it's owned by the coal board but it's never been enforced and the EA used to frequent the site and check for rod licenses. In the past few years anti-fishing people who live near to the lake have been aggressively engaging with the police to act on the trespass and remove anglers from the lake, a local bird watching (packham type) leading the charge. 

When shooting is gone, fishing, horse racing and greyhound racing will follow. Shortly after that will be green laning, MX riding, mountain biking and horse riding. There seems to be a massive part of the population in Wales with the mindset that anything they do not partake in shouldn't be allowed and the government are all too happy to lap this up to ensure their share the vote.   

 

Fishing has been in the crosshairs for 40 years +, 

Basically if folk dont agree or like what we do in field sports they want it stopped, all are in the crosshairs. 

[islandgun]

Gun making is certainly part of our heritage.......... Which is a very good reason to make lead shot concessions for older guns

[Scully]

20 hours ago, PeterHenry said:

It's strange though, isn't it - because it's not actually, and never has been truly the case.

I know i'm telling you how to suck eggs, but for the sake of the Internet- rabbit shooting or shooting on the foreshore were traditionally very accessible to anyone. Likewise with hunting to hounds - there was always a strong working class aspect to it. Not to mention a lot of those on horse back were farmers, and not remotely aristocratic.

 

Hasn’t it? There has never been a tradition of hunting or shooting in the UK unless you owned land to do it on. 
Man traps? Spring traps? 

The only people to own land were the aristocracy, the church and the landed gentry; everyone else was poaching, and even right bang up to today,  unless you have the permission of the landowner you’re poaching or trespassing. 
You can’t even canoe down some stretches of river in the UK without permission of either the landowners on either side or those who own the fishing rights. 
The working classes involved in hunting to hounds were employed by the landowners and the farmers riding to hounds were landowners or tenants. 
Wildfowling only took place legally on shore not owned by the Crown as far as I’m aware. 

10 hours ago, islandgun said:

Gun making is certainly part of our heritage.......... Which is a very good reason to make lead shot concessions for older guns

That’s very true. 

[Fellside]

On 25/01/2024 at 21:22, Conor O'Gorman said:

The government is consulting on its approach to a global convention on safeguarding cultural heritage, and falconry is already recognised, so what about a case for shooting?

https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/news/isnt-shooting-part-of-our-living-heritage-147131/

 

Yes - good angle. Wildfowling is certainly a strong historical aspect of our cultural heritage. I’m not sure about driven shooting. It is only in recent decades that this has become more available to working folk - via the rise in popularity of shooting syndicates. Walked up / rough shooting may be..?

However, our inherited wealth of woodland (created and/or preserved as pheasant coverts) is a strong heritage aspect. There you are, my two penneth for what it’s worth. 

[islandgun]

1 hour ago, Fellside said:

Yes - good angle. Wildfowling is certainly a strong historical aspect of our cultural heritage. I’m not sure about driven shooting. It is only in recent decades that this has become more available to working folk - via the rise in popularity of shooting syndicates. Walked up / rough shooting may be..?

However, our inherited wealth of woodland (created and/or preserved as pheasant coverts) is a strong heritage aspect. There you are, my two penneth for what it’s worth. 

Agreed it is a good angle the best so far, as you say most of the woodlands enjoyed today were planted for sporting purposes, wildfowling decoys [ponds] punts and puntguns, historically the best guns and gunmakers, probably the richest heritage of any nation and that should be celebrated as part of our culture

[PeterHenry]

12 hours ago, Scully said:

Hasn’t it? There has never been a tradition of hunting or shooting in the UK unless you owned land to do it on. 
Man traps? Spring traps? 

The only people to own land were the aristocracy, the church and the landed gentry; everyone else was poaching, and even right bang up to today,  unless you have the permission of the landowner you’re poaching or trespassing. 
You can’t even canoe down some stretches of river in the UK without permission of either the landowners on either side or those who own the fishing rights. 
The working classes involved in hunting to hounds were employed by the landowners and the farmers riding to hounds were landowners or tenants. 
Wildfowling only took place legally on shore not owned by the Crown as far as I’m aware. 

I'm not going to argue that a lot of shooting, fishing or hunting wasn't done by wealthy pepole. I'm also not going to argue that most land isn't owned by wealthy individuals. I'm just arguing that it's never been so black and white as a lot of pepole seem to think.

However, I was under the impression that until 1999 it was more or less the same as in Scotland now - that anyone could shoot from the foreshore owned by the Crown. A bit like sea fishing.

Re hunting with hounds - it's difficult to be a farmer if you're not a tenant or landowner - but there were a lot of Welsh farmers who hunted that would today be described as working class. Likewise with the packs run by coal miners. 

There are also sections of law in relation to farming tenants rights to shoot pest species, regardless of the views of their landlord. 

I also dont agree with the idea that the fact somone had to pay or lease ground to shoot, fish (or as it were, hunt), made it essentially a non working class pursuit - it just doesn't hold up if you look at coarse fishing / the miners hunts / ferreting / coursing.

Infact, there's a whole genre of sporting prints and stories - known as 'cockney sportmen' / Mr Jorrocks respectively, that center on the (London) working class.

[Scully]

15 hours ago, PeterHenry said:

I'm not going to argue that a lot of shooting, fishing or hunting wasn't done by wealthy pepole. I'm also not going to argue that most land isn't owned by wealthy individuals. I'm just arguing that it's never been so black and white as a lot of pepole seem to think.

However, I was under the impression that until 1999 it was more or less the same as in Scotland now - that anyone could shoot from the foreshore owned by the Crown. A bit like sea fishing.

Re hunting with hounds - it's difficult to be a farmer if you're not a tenant or landowner - but there were a lot of Welsh farmers who hunted that would today be described as working class. Likewise with the packs run by coal miners. 

There are also sections of law in relation to farming tenants rights to shoot pest species, regardless of the views of their landlord. 

I also dont agree with the idea that the fact somone had to pay or lease ground to shoot, fish (or as it were, hunt), made it essentially a non working class pursuit - it just doesn't hold up if you look at coarse fishing / the miners hunts / ferreting / coursing.

Infact, there's a whole genre of sporting prints and stories - known as 'cockney sportmen' / Mr Jorrocks respectively, that center on the (London) working class.

But it HAS always been black and white, hasn’t it?
When has there ever been any public land in the UK open to the public ( except certain places on the foreshore ) where you can just rock up with your gun and shoot? I don’t know of any even today! Do you?
There isn’t any land as far as I know in the UK, which doesn’t belong to someone.  It has been this way since medieval times, and probably long before then. 
Coarse fishing, ferreting, miners hunts etc etc all took/takes place on land owned by someone and with their consent. Without that you’re trespassing/poaching. 
As for Mr Jorrocks, he was a fictional grocer if I recall, with ambitions to become a ‘squire’ in order to fulfil his passion for country sports. If you look up the definition of ‘squire’ you’ll understand why. 

[PeterHenry]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

But it HAS always been black and white, hasn’t it?
When has there ever been any public land in the UK open to the public ( except certain places on the foreshore ) where you can just rock up with your gun and shoot? I don’t know of any even today! Do you?
There isn’t any land as far as I know in the UK, which doesn’t belong to someone.  It has been this way since medieval times, and probably long before then. 
Coarse fishing, ferreting, miners hunts etc etc all took/takes place on land owned by someone and with their consent. Without that you’re trespassing/poaching. 
As for Mr Jorrocks, he was a fictional grocer if I recall, with ambitions to become a ‘squire’ in order to fulfil his passion for country sports. If you look up the definition of ‘squire’ you’ll understand why. 

The exception proves the rule though, doesn't it. The fact that it could be done (and still can be done in Scotland) means there was that opportunity. Maybe not on the same scale, but it was there nevertheless. I also understand that you use to be able to pay a small fee to shoot on land owned by the railway (even after nationalisation) - so again, everymans shooting on state owned land.

Like I said before,  just because you have to pay for something doesn't make it non working class.

To top it off, what about all those old single barelled shotguns - greener gp's or argyle's and the like? They existed to provide affordable guns for the working man.

Jorrocks was a cockney grocer for a reason - because there was a very strong tradition of working class sportsmen in the east end - hence all the cockney sportsman prints.

Edited January 28 by PeterHenry

[Old farrier]

Personally think the whole thread is a distraction 

to move away from the questions that haven’t really been answered 

[Gordon R]

Old farrier - perish the thought. 🙂

[old man]

On 26/01/2024 at 20:14, Dougy said:

Fishing has been in the crosshairs for 40 years +, 

Basically if folk dont agree or like what we do in field sports they want it stopped, all are in the crosshairs. 

Absolutely Dougy.