Trump and Zelensky Oval Office meeting

[ditchman]

1 hour ago, clangerman said:

I been hearing the Russian threat for over sixty five years and boyo still hasn’t arrived because it’s gov cobblers to keep the donkey voters under control! lol 

Like religeon.....promises of wonderful things when you go to heaven

[yickdaz]

21 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

If you look back, I agree that Ukraine is slowly loosing, despite the narrative you will see in the media being to the contrary. But that's hardly surprising when you look at Ukrainian manpower vs Russias. 

So to get this things right, you believe it's all Ukraines fault for continuing the war, because they won't give up due to being invaded and Russia is in the right because they're prepared to let Ukraine keep the bits of their country that the Russians don't want. 

Please explain this warped logic so I can make heads or tail of this 🤔

I'm not sure Farage supports any of this, if anything he's been a little quiet on the subject, which says to me he's against Trumps outburst but doesn't want to sour relations. 

I don't get it either when people are blaming zelensky for all this it's like saying it was Polands fault when Hitler invaded them in 1939 and the rest of the world's fault for continuing the war it makes no sense at all, all i see is a dangerous ruthless dictator trying to take over a country oh wait we have been here before 

[Bigteddy1954]

On 28/02/2025 at 22:26, NoBodyImportant said:

This, Trump ran on an America first policy.  

 

I think Zelenskyy started demanding this and demanding that and it triggered Trump.  Ukraine is not entitled to American money and protection.  

I honestly think it goes back to Zelenskyy demanding this and demanding that. You can’t say I’m not signing this without you doing this when America doesn’t have a dog in this fight.  To make demands of America is a bad idea as we have new leadership. 

Hi 2014 in Budapest USA and Russia signed a agreement with Ukraine for the giving up of nuclear weapons on the terms of the agreement that the USA would protect Ukraine and that Russia WOULD NOT attack or invade them .So who broke that agreement RUSSIA so on that agreement is notthe USA obliged to honour it 

[Stonepark]

27 minutes ago, yickdaz said:

I don't get it either when people are blaming zelensky for all this it's like saying it was Polands fault when Hitler invaded them in 1939 and the rest of the world's fault for continuing the war it makes no sense at all, all i see is a dangerous ruthless dictator trying to take over a country oh wait we have been here before 

If you keep comparing apples to oranges and MSM is telling you an orange is an apple, of course you won't see the sense.

Putin is elected, just like Stammer, he is controlled by the Duma, as Stammer is by parliament. He is also a moderate conservative (unlike Stammer).

Anyone spouting Putin is a dictator clearly does not even begin to understand the situation and cannot, because they don't have all the facts.

 

[39TDS]

7 hours ago, Pukka Bundook said:

Why do you support a government guilty of ethnic cleansing of those who wish to leave the Ukraine?

Why do you support a government which cannot account for the vast majority of the money it has been handed?..Billions and billions if dollars?

To be honest I expect most in the UK are completely oblivious to these details as they never get mentioned in the media.

Edited yesterday at 13:43 by 39TDS

[Stonepark]

9 minutes ago, Bigteddy1954 said:

Hi 2014 in Budapest USA and Russia signed a agreement with Ukraine for the giving up of nuclear weapons on the terms of the agreement that the USA would protect Ukraine and that Russia WOULD NOT attack or invade them .So who broke that agreement RUSSIA so on that agreement is notthe USA obliged to honour it 

Try 1994, they were memorandums, not treaties, as such intentions only, they could be chosen to be ignored..

You might also try the Ukrainian constitution which was broken first.....

 

Ukraine's Declaration of Sovereignty, adopted by parliament in 1990, declared it had the "intention of becoming a permanently neutral state that does not participate in military blocs and adheres to three nuclear free principles".

 

Which constitution they changed after the coup, when Yankovich was illegally overthrown and then pursued joining NATO and EU.

 

If you go back in time,  Ukraine broke it's obligations first, the West actively encouraging and financing them to do so, Russia has always responded.

 

Supporting an illegitimate Ukraine Government (there hasn't been one since 2013) is no different to supporting Hitler in WWII.... The difference is this time the western elites and MSM are telling you to support them

[islandgun]

1 hour ago, Stonepark said:

If you keep comparing apples to oranges and MSM is telling you an orange is an apple, of course you won't see the sense.

Putin is elected, just like Stammer, he is controlled by the Duma, as Stammer is by parliament. He is also a moderate conservative (unlike Stammer).

Anyone spouting Putin is a dictator clearly does not even begin to understand the situation and cannot, because they don't have all the facts.

 

Just avoid windows if you disagree with him..🤨

[Newbie to this]

1 minute ago, islandgun said:

Just avoid windows if you disagree with him..🤨

And in comparison our glorious leader will just have you thrown in prison. While not quite as bad, still......

How long before questioning the government no longer just gets you a visit from the Police, but gets you a go straight to jail card.......

Yet a violent assault carried out by on of them sees a 10 week sentence overturned in record time........

We are not that far reoved from Russia

 

[NoBodyImportant]

3 hours ago, yickdaz said:

I don't get it either when people are blaming zelensky for all this it's like saying it was Polands fault when Hitler invaded them in 1939 and the rest of the world's fault for continuing the war it makes no sense at all, all i see is a dangerous ruthless dictator trying to take over a country oh wait we have been here before 

Poland wasn’t killing its own people.    Hitler wasn’t there to stop ethnic cleansing.  Remember Putin asked the west to get involved and we did not.  Putin then ordered the Ukraine to demilitarize the Donetsk and Luhansk regions were the Azov neo nazi battalion was running wild.  The thing you need to know about Russia is their hate for Nazis.  The Nazis did horrible things in Russia in ww2. By the time Russia got involved the people in Donetsk and Luhansk were beaten, their dream of independence was shattered.  The Ukrainian separatists were not fighting for freedom anymore, they were fighting to stop themselves from being exterminated.  But the vote to leave the Ukraine was a legal victory under the Ukrainian constitution.  Now some people could argue that the defeated people of Donetsk and Luhansk should have left for Russia but these people have lived there for a 1000 years.  It’s hard to give up your homeland.  Plus you have to understand the people of Donetsk and Luhansk aren’t really Russian, they speak Russian but they have a unique culture (had before Ukrainian government slaughtered them and raised their cities).  Russia invasion happened only after many request and demands that the Ukrainian government stop killing people in Donetsk and Luhansk.  At that point the separatists were beaten, they knew it, most of them were dead, their families were dead, there was no homes or cities left to fight for.  They was willing to stay  under Ukrainian occupation but was fighting because the Ukraine wouldn’t stop fighting.  Zelenskyy could have ordered his forces to withdraw from Donetsk and Luhansk at anytime and Russia wouldn’t have invaded.  The killing would have stopped.  

[12gauge82]

5 minutes ago, NoBodyImportant said:

Poland wasn’t killing its own people.    Hitler wasn’t there to stop ethnic cleansing.  Remember Putin asked the west to get involved and we did not.  Putin then ordered the Ukraine to demilitarize the Donetsk and Luhansk regions were the Azov neo nazi battalion was running wild.  The thing you need to know about Russia is their hate for Nazis.  The Nazis did horrible things in Russia in ww2. By the time Russia got involved the people in Donetsk and Luhansk were beaten, their dream of independence was shattered.  The Ukrainian separatists were not fighting for freedom anymore, they were fighting to stop themselves from being exterminated.  But the vote to leave the Ukraine was a legal victory under the Ukrainian constitution.  Now some people could argue that the defeated people of Donetsk and Luhansk should have left for Russia but these people have lived there for a 1000 years.  It’s hard to give up your homeland.  Plus you have to understand the people of Donetsk and Luhansk aren’t really Russian, they speak Russian but they have a unique culture (had before Ukrainian government slaughtered them and raised their cities).  Russia invasion happened only after many request and demands that the Ukrainian government stop killing people in Donetsk and Luhansk.  At that point the separatists were beaten, they knew it, most of them were dead, their families were dead, there was no homes or cities left to fight for.  They was willing to stay  under Ukrainian occupation but was fighting because the Ukraine wouldn’t stop fighting.  Zelenskyy could have ordered his forces to withdraw from Donetsk and Luhansk at anytime and Russia wouldn’t have invaded.  The killing would have stopped.  

So in Putins utopian efforts, to save Ukraine and rid it of Nazis, he's started a war that has cost 1000,000 lives and counting. 

Even if you were right in your assessment of why Putin has gone to war (your not). On what planet can you look at that situation and think logically that it is the right thing to do and Russia shouldn't stop this insane war immediately? 

[yickdaz]

8 minutes ago, NoBodyImportant said:

Poland wasn’t killing its own people.    Hitler wasn’t there to stop ethnic cleansing.  Remember Putin asked the west to get involved and we did not.  Putin then ordered the Ukraine to demilitarize the Donetsk and Luhansk regions were the Azov neo nazi battalion was running wild.  The thing you need to know about Russia is their hate for Nazis.  The Nazis did horrible things in Russia in ww2. By the time Russia got involved the people in Donetsk and Luhansk were beaten, their dream of independence was shattered.  The Ukrainian separatists were not fighting for freedom anymore, they were fighting to stop themselves from being exterminated.  But the vote to leave the Ukraine was a legal victory under the Ukrainian constitution.  Now some people could argue that the defeated people of Donetsk and Luhansk should have left for Russia but these people have lived there for a 1000 years.  It’s hard to give up your homeland.  Plus you have to understand the people of Donetsk and Luhansk aren’t really Russian, they speak Russian but they have a unique culture (had before Ukrainian government slaughtered them and raised their cities).  Russia invasion happened only after many request and demands that the Ukrainian government stop killing people in Donetsk and Luhansk.  At that point the separatists were beaten, they knew it, most of them were dead, their families were dead, there was no homes or cities left to fight for.  They was willing to stay  under Ukrainian occupation but was fighting because the Ukraine wouldn’t stop fighting.  Zelenskyy could have ordered his forces to withdraw from Donetsk and Luhansk at anytime and Russia wouldn’t have invaded.  The killing would have stopped.  

I remember putin saying if the West get involved you will see a war that the world has never seen I take that as a nuclear threat and north Korea will jump on board with him, and nobody liked nazis not just Russia the whole of Europe suffered the same treatment during WW2 so what do Ukraine do let putin take over the country you can bet that's what he's trying to do he won't stop at the bordering regions he will take the lot then what's next

[Gordon R]

Quote

he's started a war that has cost 1000,000 lives

You might want to revise that.

[ordnance]

1 hour ago, NoBodyImportant said:

Poland wasn’t killing its own people.    Hitler wasn’t there to stop ethnic cleansing.  Remember Putin asked the west to get involved and we did not.  Putin then ordered the Ukraine to demilitarize the Donetsk and Luhansk regions were the Azov neo nazi battalion was running wild.  The thing you need to know about Russia is their hate for Nazis.  The Nazis did horrible things in Russia in ww2. By the time Russia got involved the people in Donetsk and Luhansk were beaten, their dream of independence was shattered.  The Ukrainian separatists were not fighting for freedom anymore, they were fighting to stop themselves from being exterminated.  But the vote to leave the Ukraine was a legal victory under the Ukrainian constitution.  Now some people could argue that the defeated people of Donetsk and Luhansk should have left for Russia but these people have lived there for a 1000 years.  It’s hard to give up your homeland.  Plus you have to understand the people of Donetsk and Luhansk aren’t really Russian, they speak Russian but they have a unique culture (had before Ukrainian government slaughtered them and raised their cities).  Russia invasion happened only after many request and demands that the Ukrainian government stop killing people in Donetsk and Luhansk.  At that point the separatists were beaten, they knew it, most of them were dead, their families were dead, there was no homes or cities left to fight for.  They was willing to stay  under Ukrainian occupation but was fighting because the Ukraine wouldn’t stop fighting.  Zelenskyy could have ordered his forces to withdraw from Donetsk and Luhansk at anytime and Russia wouldn’t have invaded.  The killing would have stopped.  

Ok Comrade 👍 

[NoBodyImportant]

1 hour ago, yickdaz said:

I remember putin saying if the West get involved you will see a war that the world has never seen I take that as a nuclear threat and north Korea will jump on board with him, and nobody liked nazis not just Russia the whole of Europe suffered the same treatment during WW2 so what do Ukraine do let putin take over the country you can bet that's what he's trying to do he won't stop at the bordering regions he will take the lot then what's next

That was after he got involved.  He didn’t want to get involved.  All he asked for was to demilitarize the Donetsk and Luhansk.  It’s was simple, stop killing the locals and work it out.  Remember this was a legal right for them to seek independence backed by the Ukrainian constitution.  These are terms the Ukrainian government agreed to when they were granted independence from the Soviet Union.  Ukraine should have worked this out in their legal system 

[Gordon R]

I find it odd that NoBodyImportant is referred to as "comrade", inferring he is a communist at heart, when all he has done is present the other side of the argument. Not as Putin might present the case, but as ordinary Americans might see it.

No need to get insulting.

Since NoBodyImportant has joined the Forum, I have found his contributions to be sensible, logical and straightforward.

[BRYAN3]

I agree Gordon.

[NoBodyImportant]

I’m not saying Putin was in the right, but I understand where he was coming from. I remember my Ukrainian coworkers back in 2014-17ish   Talking about it.  After researching it (it was easier then because American had just started laundering money so the information was google search away) I was appalled that Europe was allowing it to go on.  You forget that these two provinces voteed overwhelmingly in favor of leaving the Ukraine.  Even then they didn’t start fighting until the Ukrainian government did. You can’t tell people they can vote for independence in their constitution then actively murder them when they do.  And once the people who voted for independence are beaten you stop and work on healing the country.  
 

 

 

Example would be the American civil war.  After the south failed to gain independence the US government took the path of rebuilding and healing.  Had the government said welp, we are going to kill everyone now the war would have never ended.  

[holloway]

On 01/03/2025 at 16:00, NoBodyImportant said:

Eastern Ukraine voted to leave the Ukraine because they wanted to be Russian.  The Ukrainian government started ethnic cleansing the eastern Ukraine region.  That is literally what started this war. Why would eastern Ukrainians flee a Russian occupation when they were wiling to fight and die to escape Ukrainian rule? Ukraine government committed such atrocities in Donetsk and Luhansk that huge protests sprung up in Kyiv.  Have you forgotten about the 2014 revolution?  Eastern Ukraine is 97% Russia speaking.  Ukraine government banned books written in Russian, they ruled that court and all government would be held in Ukrainian,  schools would only be taught in Ukrainian.  This is in a population that didn’t speak Ukrainian.  The Ukrainian constitution agreed to honer any minority over 10% as part of them being granted freedom from the Soviets.  So in accordance to the Ukrainian constitution the states of Donetsk and Luhansk held a vote that was overwhelmingly in support of breaking away from the Ukraine.  This was done in a legal manner according to their on constitution.  In response the Ukrainian government started killing everyone that spoke Russian in the eastern Ukraine.  

I will freely admit i needed to check some of the things being stated in this thread ,one especially is the claims of ethnic cleansing carried out by the Ukraine in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions.    

All i can find on the internet ,

The organisation for security and cooperation in Europe (OSCE) which has monitored the conflict in Ukraine from 2014 to 31st March has stated it never found any evidence to support Russias allegations of ethnic cleansing.

On 16 th March 2022 the International court of justice stated it had seen no evidence of genocide in Donetsk or Luhansk .

The International Association of Genocide scholars(IAGS) issued a statement  in February 2022 on behalf of 300 genocide experts condemning Russias  “misuse of the term genocide “ to “justify its own violence “ Melanie Obrien president of the IAGS said “there is absolutely no evidence that a genocide is taking place in Ukraine “

May i politely request anyone who has cited the ethnic cleansing by Ukraine in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions to point me in the right direction to find verified evidence independent of the Russian  allegations .

 

[NoBodyImportant]

Let me start over.  It’s a complicated subject but these are the key points. Feel free l to correct me if I’m wrong.  I pulling from memory and I’m getting old.  

2014 the elected government of Ukraine rejected treaties with the west that would cripple Ukrainian relations with Russia.  Immediately after western nations funded a coup that ousted the elected president and put in power pro western government

shorty afterwards protests broke out because a government that was elected in was forced out.  The hot bed of the was the eastern side of Ukrainian manly in Donetsk and Luhansk. These were Ukrainian people who spoke Russian.  They wanted close ties with Russia and used there huge population to vote in the now ousted President.  

in response to protests the new regime made several laws to repress the Russian speaking population.  The most severe is government institutions would be conducting in Ukrainian language.  This is directly a violation to the Ukrainian constitution that says they must honor any minority over 10% of the population in a region (ethnic Russian is 90% in Donetsk and Luhansk) And ban of books written in Russian.  This is devastating to the population of Donetsk and Luhansk who was over 90% Russian speaking.  Schools, courts, government funded broadcasting is now in Ukrainian.  Families were limited to only 10 books written in Russian language.  

So Donetsk and Luhansk help a vote as the Ukrainian constitution allows.  A constitution that Ukrainian government agreed to when they was granted independence.  I forget the exact numbers but a vote of independence required a 3/4 majority.  The separatist got over 90% which was expected.  
 

shorty after the Ukrainian military started seizing government buildings and arresting leaders in the Donetsk and Luhansk.   These protest quickly turned into fighting.  Ukraine started bombing the protesters with planes and leveling the city’s. Russian ask the west l to establish a no fly zone over the are and was refused.  After no intervention came Russia ordered the Ukrainian forces out of Donetsk and Luhansk to allow peace talks.  Ukraine refused as the new pro west government was being flooded with funding for the west.  Russian troops entered Donetsk and Luhansk to demilitarize it.  Then everything spiraled out of control.  
 

Ukraine will loose the states Donetsk and Luhansk , there is not many outcomes available where they keep them.  They didn’t want  to be Ukrainian to begin with, that want started it all.  But in my mind Russia didn’t start this, western money and influence did by funding the pro western coup.  

 

[NoBodyImportant]

8 minutes ago, holloway said:

I will freely admit i needed to check some of the things being stated in this thread ,one especially is the claims of ethnic cleansing carried out by the Ukraine in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions.    

 

May i politely request anyone who has cited the ethnic cleansing by Ukraine in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions to point me in the right direction to find verified evidence independent of the Russian  allegations .

 

Reddit has videos.  They are hard to watch.  Ukrainian government shelled entire cities knowing civilian population was inside.  Leadership dragged from their homes and were never heard from again.    Before the US started laundering money via the Ukraine is was public.  The pro west installed government brought war on these people who voted for independence.  But there was far too many resources in those regions to allow them to leave.  As an American I would like to see those minerals and resources out of Russian control and in the hands of American influence.  But I can’t pretend it right.  As an American I have a soft spot in my heart for people gaining independence.  Our declaration of independence states that people have certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Edited yesterday at 19:29 by NoBodyImportant

[holloway]

4 minutes ago, NoBodyImportant said:

Reddit has videos.  They are hard to watch.  Ukrainian government shelled entire cities knowing civilian population was inside.  Leadership dragged from their homes and were never heard from again.    Before the US started laundering money via the Ukraine is was public.  

Thank you for the background and opinion  but there is no evidence provided unless i have missed it ,banning books in Russian seems harsh but not life threatening .

  I have tried to listen to everyone in this thread ,but firm evidence is difficult to find ,if anyone can guide me to it i will be grateful most information seems to come from Russia but with no real evidence ?

[NoBodyImportant]

American spent millions  to sway the world’s opinion.  Because the west wanted the minerals resources in eastern Ukraine and they would loose them if they joined Russia.  Plus it’s becoming more evident this was a money laundering aventure  for the Democrats.  

Edited yesterday at 19:45 by NoBodyImportant

[NoBodyImportant]

2 minutes ago, holloway said:

Thank you for the background and opinion  but there is no evidence provided unless i have missed it ,banning books in Russian seems harsh but not life threatening .

  I have tried to listen to everyone in this thread ,but firm evidence is difficult to find ,if anyone can guide me to it i will be grateful most information seems to come from Russia but with no real evidence ?

Did you miss the whole war pre Russian invasion?  Whole cities were destroyed in Donetsk and Luhansk in the name of “rooting out protesters”  even non Russian Ukrainians in Kiev was protesting the treatment of them? Shelling cities in Donetsk by Ukrainians pre Russian involvement is no better then Russian shelling cities during the invasion.  Sometimes cities and civilians have military interest and destruction and killing can’t be avoided.  But you will never get the moral high ground by wiping out neighborhoods in retaliation.  The whole vote for independence should have been taken up by the courts.  It was a legal vote

[12gauge82]

2 hours ago, Gordon R said:

You might want to revise that.

A bit of an exaggeration perhaps, but probably not far off if you include casualties. I hope we can both agree the losses on both sides are horrendous and would have been completely avoided if Putin hadn't launched an invasion. 

[holloway]

4 minutes ago, NoBodyImportant said:

Did you miss the whole war pre Russian invasion?  Whole cities were destroyed in Donetsk and Luhansk in the name of “rooting out protesters”  even non Russian Ukrainians in Kiev was protesting the treatment of them? Shelling cities in Donetsk by Ukrainians pre Russian involvement is no better then Russian shelling cities during the invasion.  Sometimes cities and civilians have military interest and destruction and killing can’t be avoided.  But you will never get the moral high ground by wiping out neighborhoods in retaliation.  The whole vote for independence should have been taken up by the courts.  It was a legal vote

I have it seems only missed firm evidence of ethnic cleansing ,which is what i am searching for its not a dig at you personally ,i am trying to understand why Russia invaded the Ukraine ,the whole of it by invasion with a huge army bombing cities indiscriminately killing many innocent people .