Conservative Manifesto

[grrclark]

Can we get back to the topic chaps? Even though TM seems to be guaranteed a big win - surely we won't get another Trump/Brexit shock - her manifesto does come over as reasonable, fair and realistic. Unlike Labour she's not looking to bankrupt the country. She's not afraid to upset hardcore supporters (pensioners) who, I hope, will realise there has to be 'pain' here to pay for the big three - NHS, Social care and schools.

 

I don't think that we will see a big shock although I think the phasing out of free school lunches for primary school children will prove to be an emotive topic and easy to paint her as heartless.

 

I think the manifesto is realistic, it is probably more realistic than any manifesto of recent times, as it isn't full of vote winning giveaway headlines to sway a marginal vote. I think there is confidence by the Conservatives that they will win this and as such they don't want or need to paint themselves into a corner by issuing a popularity contest manifesto.

[Smokersmith]

I'm a fan ... some people say that TM is Thatchers last horcrux ...

 

For those without kids into Harry Potter ..

 

horcruxunknown

A device created and used by the darkest of Dark witches and wizards, those seeking immortality. In a horcrux, one conceals part of the soul to prevent death. In order to do so, the soul must be torn into two pieces: one for the horcrux, and one that remains in the physical body. To create a horcrux, one must commit "the supreme act of evil" — murder, which "rips the soul apart." They must then perform a special spell (the incantation of which has not been revealed) which will harness their soul, allowing them to place it into an object at will.

[panoma1]

 

People have paid NI for the healthcare of the day and also the incredible advancement of healthcare capabilities as we have moved through the ages. Within peoples lifetimes we have seen advancement in diagnostic and treatment capabilities that were outside the scope of imagination for most people, think organ transplant, gene therapy, IVF as simple examples.

 

Throughout the lifetime of the NHS we have seen a steady increase in the average life expectancy, a reduction in infant mortality, considerable improvement in critical trauma survival, we have seen significant improvement in the quality of life from those suffering from chronic disease from what were sever life impacting symptoms into something much more manageable through advanced drug therapies.

 

There is not a linear relationship between the advancement of healthcare and the direct cost of contribution via NI. The cost of the NHS and social welfare, including pensions, is exponentially greater than the contribution of 'the stamp'.

 

I would hasten to add that not every oldie has given the same level of contribution and i would also add that there is an exponentially greater contribution from the working generation of today toward the healthcare of the current crop of oldies than that contributed by those currently under care.

 

The government has not stolen money, it has distributed tax funding across a vast spectrum of publicly funded infrastructure spanning health, education, defence, infrastructure, social welfare, etc, etc.

 

Charlie T summed it up well a few posts up, there is no shortage of hypocrisy about the welfare state by more than a few posters on this thread.

 

Hindsight is a wonderful thing! todays pensioners paid NI at a level the government set, as advancements in science and healthcare developed it was up to the government to set the rate of contributions to cover these advances and developments for those that would benefit from them in later life.....of course the current working generation contribute more because they will benefit from future advances and developments!.........well at least those that are still alive when they reach the higher retirement age will!.....

 

NI is an insurance policy, If a person dies before or shortly after retirement, what happens to the money they have paid into the state over their lifetime? I suppose it depends on which way you want to look at it, but if it doesn't go into the deceased's estate and the Government keep it and use it for other purposes.....if that's not theft, what do you call it?

[motty]

I hope that free school dinners are taken away from most folk on benefits, as they can certainly afford them.

[Me matt]

Apparently pledged £8 billion for the NHS. More than Labour are offering.

Neither of those figures will amount to **** after the votes are counted unfortunately, and I think deep down you know that 🤔

 

People still being swayed by unrealistic promises at election time- you just gotta love politics 😐

[wandringstar]

Someone worked out that taken everything into account, under the tories, middle class tax rate is 53% and back in the socialist 70s under labour it was 38%.

 

 

The tories are far removed from the party they were meant to be and what they were founded on, the tough on law and order bit is more than laughable aswell. Mediocrity or worse rules the day in politics.

[CharlieT]

I hope that free school dinners are taken away from most folk on benefits, as they can certainly afford them.

 

It is statements such as this, that demonstrate a sheer lack of incomprehension of the plight the vast majority of those who find themselves in a less fortunate position.

 

I sincerely hope you, or your family, never find yourself in the position of relying on benefits.

 

Not all the rubbish published by the Daily Mail is true. I've yet to meet genuine benefit recipients who can afford plasma TV's, drink 8 pints a night and afford fags at £10 a packet, which is why my social conscience requires me to give generously to our local food bank.

 

To deprive children of what may be their only proper meal of the day is scandalous.

[poontang]

Someone worked out that taken everything into account, under the tories, middle class tax rate is 53% and back in the socialist 70s under labour it was 38%.

 

 

The tories are far removed from the party they were meant to be and what they were founded on, the tough on law and order bit is more than laughable aswell. Mediocrity or worse rules the day in politics.

 

I'm not sure you can compare tax rates, or indeed much else, from 40-50 years ago to today's Britain.

 

Far too many things have changed, some good and some bad. The middle class of the 70's was a different beast to that of today. How is it defined in a modern Britain? Purely by wealth, or a combination of wealth, status, aspiration, education, social standing or contacts? I mean what exactly is middle class?

Indeed, how is any class defined?

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Come on Theresa, get on with it!

[wandringstar]

There are genuine needy people, they are begging in my hometown, they were not there 10 years ago, if you read mottys post, he said 'most', maybe he meant a lot can certainly afford them, either way, he would also be compassionate about the genuine needy, like I am.

I'm not sure you can compare tax rates, or indeed much else, from 40-50 years ago to today's Britain.

 

Far too many things have changed, some good and some bad. The middle class of the 70's was a different beast to that of today. How is it defined in a modern Britain? Purely by wealth, or a combination of wealth, status, aspiration, education, social standing or contacts? I mean what exactly is middle class?

Indeed, how is any class defined?

 

poontang, you write a good post, but how else can you compare, if anything things should be reducing in cost, the public sector has never been bigger at the top bloated end.

[grrclark]

NI is an insurance policy, If a person dies before or shortly after retirement, what happens to the money they have paid into the state over their lifetime? I suppose it depends on which way you want to look at it, but if it doesn't go into the deceased's estate and the Government keep it and use it for other purposes.....if that's not theft, what do you call it?

I do understand where you are coming from, but NI (tax in general) is a contribution to a society fund, not to an individual fund of entitlement.

 

If we go down that route should those that contribute more get more in return, or of they are a small footprint on public resource should they get a rebate?

[poontang]

There are genuine needy people, they are begging in my hometown, they were not there 10 years ago, if you read mottys post, he said 'most', maybe he meant a lot can certainly afford them, either way, he would also be compassionate about the genuine needy, like I am.

 

 

poontang, you write a good post, but how else can you compare, if anything things should be reducing in cost, the public sector has never been bigger at the top bloated end.

 

Yes, the public sector has got bigger, a lot bigger, and always under Labour administrations. Most middle class professions today are on the public payroll. It would seem quite feasible then that their tax burden would be lower under a Labour govt. whether in the 70's or today?

You couldn't imagine Corbyn hitting the pay packets of teachers or junior doctors could you?

[wandringstar]

he is on £136k, fantasy numbers to me.

[team tractor]

 

Why should people not pay for their own care if they have more than £100,000 of savings or assets? Why should my taxes have to pay for somebody who can afford to pay for themselves?

 

Why can people not be responsible for themselves for the entire duration of their adult life? Is there some magical thing that happens when someone reaches pensionable age that they now become the responsibility of the state any more so than when they are younger?

All I can say is if you ever need a home to live in but have no money please don't ask me for help or dole money. Your an adult

 

My grandad paid tax on all his money but for someone who hasn't worked to get the same treatment is wrong . They should of thought about this before spending it all as after all they're adults .

100k in assets is nothing . My house is £180,000 and far from amazing. In fact it's an end terrace on a council estate.

What should we do with the people who don't have anything to give?

 

People who self fund can choose their own homes. Those who aren't can't anymore.

My granny didn't have a choice tho . It's only the same as people on benefits dude. Why should the lazy get the free house and me pay for mine

[Gordon R]

grrclark - I can't disagree with your post about taxpayers funding an inheritance. It is fair comment, but it is a complicated subject.

 

That said, I fail to see why someone who has paid in all their life has to fund Cook Islanders to the tune of half a million pounds each. They pay in nothing. There are many other examples of where we tax the population to give it away around the World.

[Mice!]

I hope that free school dinners are taken away from most folk on benefits, as they can certainly afford them.

So punish the kids because of the parents? Kids get free school dinners for three years I think, this means there all eating a good lunch five days a week why would anyone not want them to have that, kids can't influence the parents.

 

I can happily say my kids have more than I did growing up because I earn more than my folks did, but it was instilled in me even though my old fella couldn't work through ill health that if you want something then you work for it.

[Lloyd90]

All I can say is if you ever need a home to live in but have no money please don't ask me for help or dole money. Your an adult

 

My grandad paid tax on all his money but for someone who hasn't worked to get the same treatment is wrong . They should of thought about this before spending it all as after all they're adults .

100k in assets is nothing . My house is £180,000 and far from amazing. In fact it's an end terrace on a council estate.

My granny didn't have a choice tho . It's only the same as people on benefits dude. Why should the lazy get the free house and me pay for mine

If He ever needs a home to live in and he's got over £100,000 why should he come asking others? He should use the money he's got.

[Zetter]

While I agree with some of the sentiments regarding the less well off it I am of the opinion that the welfare system need a fundimental shakeup. While it is a safety net for some for others it seems to be a lifestyle choice paid for by others like myself who work full time.

Before people castigate me for this I do speak from personal experience my brother and his ex partner from visits seemed to have quite a comfortable life with as many "mod cons" (x box for her lad, big telly, house, couple of dogs ect) as we did despite him not working for years and her being on disability living with back issues. This is not an isolated incident and is not "Daily Mail" propaganda as its surprising when you talk to people you know and work with how many have close relatives who are living comfortably on the state.

 

I'm not afraid to admit I fall into higher bracket tax due to my grafting had in my job over the past 25 years and regularly see my wages pillaged heavily by the tax man to as far as I can see it support some of the populous who don't want to contribute but are happy to reap the benefits of the welfare state.

Really the above policy by the Tories would for me promote a policy of as soon as I retire to cash as much of it in as possible to enjoy it while I can as there seems little point is massive savings for old age as you end up similarly off as someone who had contributed nothing to society for 50 odd years apart from to increase the population with another bunch of non contributors.

Edited May 18, 2017 by Zetter

[chesterse]

After the Second World War the majority of the population had little or nothing financially my parents included. They did however do whatever work they could to earn a living, my father as a bricklayer and my mother as a shop assistant. Over the years and living a fairly frugal life style, e.g. any holidays they had were in this country never travelling abroad, they were able to buy their own home.

Now my father has passed away and my mother is in a care home why should she have to use money from the value of the house to pay for her care home fees when contemporaries who chose to rent a home and spend their income do not have to pay?

[Lloyd90]

After the Second World War the majority of the population had little or nothing financially my parents included. They did however do whatever work they could to earn a living, my father as a bricklayer and my mother as a shop assistant. Over the years and living a fairly frugal life style, e.g. any holidays they had were in this country never travelling abroad, they were able to buy their own home.

Now my father has passed away and my mother is in a care home why should she have to use money from the value of the house to pay for her care home fees when contemporaries who chose to rent a home and spend their income do not have to pay?

Why should others have to pay for her? She doesn't want the house does she because she no longer lives there.

 

Your the one who will get the house left to you. Why should the tax payer fund her care so you can have a larger inheritance?

Edited May 18, 2017 by Lloyd90

[wandringstar]

why should thin people pay for diabetes treatment for fatties, why should childless people pay for schools, why should people with children pay for nhs ivf treatment for those that don't, you could list it all day if you wanted, how the hell could you find a system that suits everybody 100%, I hate the bbc with a passion, but every year I have to pay their silly licence fee. Life isn't fair, it never has been, but its as good as there is.

[scutt]

voted labour most of my life hate thatcher but pinning my hopes on May sorting the EU thing out and doing a better job of it than the other parties .

I say yes to means test heating allowance ,no to taking away free dinners, and think upping the threshold of 100k to be a step in the right direction .

As an oldie I contributed to the treasury from the age of fifteen and now draw a pension that I think I am entitled to .please remember those of you who think I am a burden on your tax contribution I still pay v.a.t. council tax insurance tax road tax and most other taxes ooh yes I have a bus pass and I get free scipts but pay for dental care. I am still a tax payer

Edited May 18, 2017 by scutt

[wandringstar]

hate thatcher? she left office 27 years ago, and died in 2013. I could never admit to voting labour.

Edited May 18, 2017 by wandringstar

[stumfelter]

 

 

Not all the rubbish published by the Daily Mail is true. I've yet to meet genuine benefit recipients who can afford plasma TV's, drink 8 pints a night and afford fags at £10 a packet, which is why my social conscience requires me to give generously to our local food bank.

 

You ought to get out more....

[grrclark]

All I can say is if you ever need a home to live in but have no money please don't ask me for help or dole money. Your an adult

 

My grandad paid tax on all his money but for someone who hasn't worked to get the same treatment is wrong . They should of thought about this before spending it all as after all they're adults .

100k in assets is nothing . My house is £180,000 and far from amazing. In fact it's an end terrace on a council estate.

 

That is the point though, if people fall on hard times then the state should be there to help them out, so if someone is homeless or if they need care in their dotage then the state is there to help.

 

If someone doesn't need state help because they have their own means then the state aid should be reserved for those who need it.

 

Of course that is complicated by people who abuse the system and then it is unfair, but read back through the comments on here with a few suggesting that wealth should be redistributed in a way to ensure the state has to pay for their elderly care. That is no different to those who are work shy and play the system for benefits.

 

My point was why does someone who reaches pensionable age suddenly become the full responsibility of the state again just because they grew old.