Panorama - Driven Game Shooting

[norfolk dumpling]

A very difficult situation for all of us involved with shooting. It is more than rumours that birds are being disposed of but what can we do when:

1) in early 2017 shoot takes deposits for 25x300 bird days ie enters into binding contracts with a couple of hundred Guns

2) 25,000 birds are ordered, paid for, delivered and being looked after

3) staff are also booked. Some of course have full contracts of employment

4) as season progresses (late 2017 of course) bottom drops out of the game meat market

is this not where we are now and our opponents will of course say this is always how it is. Very similar to a farmer growing a few hundred tonnes of defective carrots which their major market says now not acceptable or have I missed something?

[P.Shuter]

Re- Big bags game or pigeon.

It must be remembered that All this latest controversay is merely just another load of baloney that is peddled by the ****ty ‘anti-shooting’  media to to the general public,  with the intent of hammering a few more nails in the coffin of shot gun shooting as we know it.

If you start with pigeon bags, most folk on here I think are satisfied with a good day 20-30 pigeons and for sure everyone dreams of a hundred bird bird day ?

Same with game bird days and I for one would be happy to shoot 20 (or more) driven pheasants in the day,  if there were ten guns that might translate to a 200 bird day and if so then clearly the birds were there, so what’s the problem ?

When a large commercial shoot releases 5000 pheasants they are NOT doing it for any gun to say “ I’m only here for the crack, I’m happy with 5 pheasants on the day”,  they are doing it because they want everyone to have plenty of shots and hope the guns will bag 20-30 each or more depending upon the number of birds released.

If I was rough shooting in the game season I would be happy to walk with my dog over some part wooded arable or grass land and shoot a handful of items but if I was on a ‘Six Mile Bottom’ driven day I would want to be getting through some cartridges.

Now we are obsessed with questioning or justifing the ‘bags’ we shoot and what happens to them afterwards,  if shot pigeons are skipped does it really matter ? they are classed as vermin an agricultural pest, if a few are eaten all well and good, have you tried giving away birds in the feather not everyone wants to deal with them, I bet it’s the same with game and some shot birds will not be fit to pass into the food chain, therefore any pheasant shoot should be able to justify disposing of carcasses.

Personally I don’t eat pheasant meat or wood pigeon on a regular basis but I really like to shoot them as often as I can.

 

[Brad93]

What we used to do with our excess birds is we gave them to two local pubs. At the end of the season one of the pubs would do us a big pheasant rabbit and muntjac stew. In return there was 30 of us spending a tonne on beer. 

We then used to have drivers/taxis organised to ship us all home. 

Better the birds go to use than not. 

[wildfowler.250]

Did this go on tv? I missed it!

[TIGHTCHOKE]

I don't think so yet, there were rumours of an injunction, but requested by whom I cannot find. Might be the shoot or CA or another shooting body.

[Smokersmith]

Anyone with an update on this?

[del.gue]

13 hours ago, Smokersmith said:

Anyone with an update on this?

The beeb are probably waiting to show it around August 12th to cause max trouble

[ShootingEgg]

On 16/06/2018 at 09:45, del.gue said:

The beeb are probably waiting to show it around August 12th to cause max trouble

This, why show it now when no shooting is happening in that way.. Show it wheb the season starts and boom... Mass anti madness

[Novice]

The estate involved obtained a court injunction to prevent it being shown. 

[Scully]

55 minutes ago, Novice said:

The estate involved obtained a court injunction to prevent it being shown. 

Yes, so I believe, what I asked right at the start of this thread ( and what no one seems to be able to answer ) is why? Something to hide? 

[Novice]

Yes, plenty to hide from what i understand. 

[norfolk dumpling]

No necessarily something to hide but you just know coverage will not be positive. The media loves to knock any form of country sport. Even if the story is not substantial they only need to sign up an idiot such as Packham and the rhetoric will be believed. Jeremy Vine covered something recently and I nearly crashed my car when he announced "..... I cannot imagine why any normal person would want to kill any bird or animal..." How the hell does our vast quantities of beef, chicken, etc etc get into the supermarket or butchers - do they all dies of old age or commit suicide?

[oldypigeonpopper]

hello, i am beginning to think jeremy vine has formed an alliance with chris packham, i did not hear radio 2 that day but what are abattoirs for unless JV is a vegan

Edited June 19, 2018 by oldypigeonpopper

[panoma1]

1 hour ago, norfolk dumpling said:

No necessarily something to hide but you just know coverage will not be positive. The media loves to knock any form of country sport. Even if the story is not substantial they only need to sign up an idiot such as Packham and the rhetoric will be believed. Jeremy Vine covered something recently and I nearly crashed my car when he announced "..... I cannot imagine why any normal person would want to kill any bird or animal..." How the hell does our vast quantities of beef, chicken, etc etc get into the supermarket or butchers - do they all dies of old age or commit suicide?

Most people have no problem with killing billions of animals and birds for our food.........where the problem lies, is those same people (stirred up by the propaganda of anti shooting/hunting political agitators hiding behind a conservationist facade) do not like (cannot understand) shooters/hunters enjoying a pastime that often results in animals/birds dying! They are being manipulated by those with an anti shooting/hunting agenda to confuse the enjoyment we get from the sport/pastime with a false premise of us deriving some sadistic pleasure from the death of an animal/bird! So their ire is channeled towards the person doing the killing.......not the killing!

What the public can't understand is that it is not from any enjoyment of killing where the attraction lies to a shooter/hunter.......but in the overall experience.......that is why we do it!

That is what we need to get the public to understand!

[Smokersmith]

On 19/06/2018 at 08:03, Novice said:

The estate involved obtained a court injunction to prevent it being shown. 

Thanks ....

[Scully]

On 19/06/2018 at 08:16, Novice said:

Yes, plenty to hide from what i understand. 

It can only be assumed so, given the OP’s opening post. 

[dodeer]

Loads could be done with excess game but sadly its not. We missed a trick a decade ago by shoot owners not charging an extra £1 bird to process and give away for free or sell cheaply. 

I often shoot Pheasant in Hungary where we might shoot 1200 in a day , but all are decent birds, english style released and value is 3 euro per bird as the meat market is high there and a Pheasant is regarded much more than a scabby broiler chicken.

Small/ big bags don't matter, as long as the game is used properly. 

Some of the huge commerical shoots here should do a lot more for promoting game eating but they dont care. Get all the breasts off and vac packed and sold cheaply or given away would do huge favours to the industry

[demonwolf444]

Heard all about this from someone who knew last year. Frankly the industry has had it coming IMO - Unfortunately small shoots and responsible practitioners will be tarred with the same brush. Anyone involved with game shooting is likely to suffer because of this.

The film will have no positive impact, it wont seek to address serious issues such as the market for shot game, its going to question morality and ethics, focus on a hatred of wealthy and probably roll class around in the gravel a bit to boot.

What it will do is lead to poorly thought through legislation which controls and restricts the sport, and still doesn't offer any solution for game meat wastage. It will also invigorate every anti and do good-er into making their poorly informed views known again aggravating all and benefiting none.

I love game shooting i really do but i cant help but feel this has probably been a long time coming, its a shame we have not seriously asked questions sooner, then again the people on here probably are not the people regularly going on these big days and the people going on these big shoots probably don't know what happens to their birds, don't ask, and don't care and that's not a stab at anyone but i can understand why you would assume commercially operating shoots would find a ready market for their produce. - Clearly there isn't one or this wouldn't be an issue.

[ehb102]

On 17/07/2018 at 11:40, dodeer said:

 should do a lot more for promoting game eating but they dont care. Get all the breasts off and vac packed and sold cheaply or given away would do huge favours to the industry

 

I suggested a three season project where volunteers collect excess game birds, breast them (or pluck if they care to do so) and distribute them without charge. No sale, no legal problem. Yes, it costs us time and sometimes petrol, but it would be helping the industry. No one was interested, such a grass roots type of project doesn't appeal to industry leaders. Pre baby I would have done it myself, but I'm a wee bit busy. Could be done reasonably easily if shoots were prepared to cool the birds properly. If they won't do even that then all is lost. 

[ShootingEgg]

On 08/02/2018 at 12:15, P.Shuter said:

Same with game bird days and I for one would be happy to shoot 20 (or more) driven pheasants in the day,  if there were ten guns that might translate to a 200 bird day and if so then clearly the birds were there, so what’s the problem ?

I think the problem is that the anti and the public thanks to the anti, sees it as birds being put there to shoot. Pigeons are wild end of, pheasant are hatched reared put into the wild then shot. If they are tgen disguarded there is the problem.... More needs to be done. Im hoping to work with taste of game and be part of a scheme that takes game into schools to promote the use, one step to getting it back on the menu. 

[scotslad]

I do agree with much of wot's been said above.

But i have to say the lack of a market is really a new thing that has sneaked up and caught many by surprise (possibly different down south and for those more connected with selling game) who might off seen it coming earlier

Last season was the 1st time i've ever heard of game dealers not paying for game, every season before they have paid, while often not much, but even 2 yrs ago getting 50p a bird. Not a lot but still some extra cash in shoots pockets, so i still find it very hard to believe big shoots have been incenerating birds for years (althou i could see them sorting birds and inceneraing poor/damaged carcasses, which has been taken out off context??)

 

While large commercial shoots do need to take a good look at wot there doing, I also believe a lot/most of the blame lies with the game dealers they have delibertily prices game out of the market.

Oven ready game has hardly changed in price, yet their paying nothing for it now, surely the processing costs can't of risen that much in those years?

U buy a pheasant oven ready from a butchers/dealers ur talking 4-6 quid, yet they got the bird for free, thats 1 hell of a mark up.

If they were selling birds far cheaper there would be a market for them.

 

The only way i can see round it is various shoots forming game co-operatives and processing/selling their own game, so they have an interest in both sides and could sell the birds far cheaper if needed and have a vested interest in establishing and building a real long term market for game.

For me the game dealers have just been taking for too long and not building u a market, they must off seen the market declining but shoots putting more birds down

 

PS

If this shoot was doing wot is claimed why would it let cameras in or was it undercover?? (apologies if thats mentioned earlier in thread as not read throu it again since it restarted)

 

Also shooting egg while ur right wot u say about releasing birds to shoot, But thats not true with grouse shooting yet its taking more flak than any other kind.

To me that just shows its al about class warfare/jealosy and very little about animal welfare or anything else

[dodeer]

I know 2 gamedealers who are in their early 50’s and both now retiring after this season as they’ve made enough money to live out their days in the villa in Spain.

Saying that big started with nothing and have worked hard but the game market was kind to them and been easy pickings.

 

Ive been looking into the game export market again and sadly it’s totally dried up, except for woodcock and Hares. 

[scotslad]

That's sort of my point, u'd think these people in te industry would/should of seen the markets either drying up or the extra game coming into them year on year.

 

They have been dropping their prices for the last decade really so why did they never drop the price of oven ready game?

Or really create a real UK market for it?

I don't begrudge the game dealers there profits just that they seem to have put very little back into the game industry (or possibly wanted to screw as much out f it as they could? They know birds will be shot reguardless so know they can offer peanuts for them yet still selling at luxory prices)

 

The meat/taste is fantastic but people in UK are lazy and nowadays only a tiny % could handle a feathered bird or rabbit, also the mentality has changed quite a lot past 20yrs and is getting even more urban based so u have a hurdle getting them to try something new, plus the whoole pellet debate, many won't like the thought of pellets being in there food (esp when u add the whole non story of lead)

But things/attitudes are changing fast if we don't create a market soon UK culture might be too far gone to change

[Novice]

It will be interesting to see how the new owners of yorkshire game get on. They're the people behind the gressingham duck brand, which has apparently massively increased public consumption of domestic duck. 

They already have the relationships with the big supermarkets and the facilities to handle and process game.  I've heard talk of them focusing on ready meals and curry/stewing mixes already seasoned/marinaded. Could genuinely be the answer and if they do well, i can see the rest of the industry following on. 

To put it in context, consider the last time you ate chicken as opposed to the last time you roasted a chicken. We've got to look at game the same. Things have moved on a long way in terms of public demand for simply a roasting bird. 

[Scully]

12 hours ago, ShootingEgg said:

I think the problem is that the anti and the public thanks to the anti, sees it as birds being put there to shoot. Pigeons are wild end of, pheasant are hatched reared put into the wild then shot. If they are tgen disguarded there is the problem.... More needs to be done. Im hoping to work with taste of game and be part of a scheme that takes game into schools to promote the use, one step to getting it back on the menu. 

Although the description is accurate, it's not entirely fair to single out one type of shooting for criticism. The antis want all driven shooting banned, regardless of species; the use ( or not in this case ) to which the shot game is then put is merely a method the antis will use ( amongst many others ) towards that end. Like we all know, it has little if anything to do with animal welfare but everything to do with perceived class hatred. If toffs in garters and Vogues start paying to shoot decoyed pigeons do you really think they will be left to get on with it?