Pigeon Guiding Illegal?

[grog1961]

Has Packham done us all a favour in that the "Not for profit" clause could have effectively made pigeon guiding illegal?

[Walker570]

As I see it , Yes.

[grog1961]

That would be good news for the average shooter!

[Scully]

I would have thought so , yes. 

[Cranfield]

I would assume if all the hoops had been jumped through regarding alternative methods etc., there is nothing to stop an organised vermin control exercise taking place.

Fees would/could be involved whether they are organisers fees, or gun club subscriptions.
Some clubs actually pay for vermin shooting and some Farmers/Shooting Rights Owners charge for vermin shooting. 

 

 

[AYA117]

It will probably become very expensive to park your vehicle while you shoot 😀

[grog1961]

5 hours ago, Cranfield said:

I would assume if all the hoops had been jumped through regarding alternative methods etc., there is nothing to stop an organised vermin control exercise taking place.

Fees would/could be involved whether they are organisers fees, or gun club subscriptions.
Some clubs actually pay for vermin shooting and some Farmers/Shooting Rights Owners charge for vermin shooting. 

 

 

But "Not for profit"?

[Vince Green]

There are always ways and means

[wymberley]

8 hours ago, AYA117 said:

It will probably become very expensive to park your vehicle while you shoot 😀

And where applicable, cash only.

[panoma1]

33 minutes ago, wymberley said:

And where applicable, cash only.

I can see a situation where a client/s, unhappy about forking out cash and getting a poor day......dobbs the "guide" in to the authorities!....trying to circumvent the system has its risks.

[wymberley]

37 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

I can see a situation where a client/s, unhappy about forking out cash and getting a poor day......dobbs the "guide" in to the authorities!....trying to circumvent the system has its risks.

Yep. In truth, my previous post added nothing to the topic. It's was just that AYA117 struck a chord as living where I do, a couple of square yards of land particularly near a beach can produce a tax free income during the summer months completely out of proportion to its size.

[CharlieT]

I can not see anything in the wording of the GL that prohibits "guides" charging so long as terms 1 - 3 of the license have been met.

After all, guides are not selling days for sport or profit, they are charging for their services to protect crops under the strict terms of the license.

[grog1961]

3 hours ago, CharlieT said:

I can not see anything in the wording of the GL that prohibits "guides" charging so long as terms 1 - 3 of the license have been met.

After all, guides are not selling days for sport or profit, they are charging for their services to protect crops under the strict terms of the license.

******** they are charging people to shoot pigeons for sport and making a living from it!

[Saltings]

3 hours ago, grog1961 said:

******** they are charging people to shoot pigeons for sport and making a living from it!

yes  French   Italian  a party of six or eight friends get together pay the man who puts them in the field, the French rent a chiller van and take everything home , I am aware of a guy who has been doing this for years 

[grog1961]

23 hours ago, CharlieT said:

I can not see anything in the wording of the GL that prohibits "guides" charging so long as terms 1 - 3 of the license have been met.

After all, guides are not selling days for sport or profit, they are charging for their services to protect crops under the strict terms of the license.

******** they are charging people to shoot pigeons for sport and making a living from it!

They are definately out to get Guides!

 

1. Woodpigeons:  an unforeseen consequence of our successful legal challenge is that a spotlight has been thrown on the shooting of Woodpigeons. As far as we can make out, the shooting of Woodpigeons for ‘sport’ or for food is not authorised under any current legislation.  Woodpigeons that are legally shot, eg for the purpose of preventing serious damage to crops, may be sold as food. Any cursory reading of the shooting press will reveal that there is a lot of shooting of Woodpigeons for sport or commerce outside of the terms of the law.  This is presumably why, buried away in the recently-published GL31 is the phrase ‘IMPORTANT: this licence does not permit the killing of woodpigeons solely for commercial and/or recreational purposes, and only activities conducted in accordance with this licence are authorised. If there is evidence that this licence is being used inappropriately then Natural England may review this licence.’.  We believe that there is plenty of evidence that Woodpigeons were being shot for the purposes of commercial and recreational purposes before the revocation of GLO4, GL05 and GL06 and would be amazed if this is not continuing now – at a time when shooting of Woodpigeons to prevent serious damage to most crops is long gone (especially for Oil Seed Rape).  Now it may be that society thinks that Woodpigeons should be a species that can be shot for recreational or commercial purposes but that is not the current legal position as we understand it. Defra should take urgent and active steps to make this clear to stakeholders which go far beyond two sentences buried in GL31. Defra may wish to consider legislative change on this matter and if it does then it should take that opportunity to specify that only non-toxic shot should be used for these purposes in line with the recommendations of the Lead Ammunition Group report of 2015¹⁰and the science laid out in the Oxford Lead Symposium of 2015¹³.

[mick miller]

Quote

Any cursory reading of the shooting press will reveal...

Which is why, as I have stated so many times, people need to be careful what they post, share and advertise.

 

[JJsDad]

49 minutes ago, grog1961 said:

They are definately out to get Guides!

 

Its not just (paid) guides they after after. There is an anti-shooting agenda running through the whole licence. This is, and has been, a covert aim with the Natural England senior management for some time; they just took the oportunity in colusion with Packham, Avery et al, to slip it in while addressing the point(s) made by Wild Justice`s legal challenge.

I have to deal with Natural England periodically as one of my areas is partly within an SSSI. Believe you me, if you own a gun and go wildfowling or carry out any form of vermin control on an area where they have an interest, you will have to jump through lots of hoops and try to beat down lots of bureaucratic barriers before getting your way.

Make no mistake, there are people at the very top of Natural England and the likes of Wild Justice who are hell bent on seeing anyone using a shotgun or rifle being slowly squeezed out of the ability to control all forms of vermin. Once they have effectively stopped that you can bet your bottom dollar they will turn their attention elsewhere. Game birds both wild and raised will be next on the agenda if they get their way with a series of totally restrictive licence`s for vermin. I just hope at sometime in the future, we dont look back on 2019 as the year when everything we have enjoyed for so long, started to go so wrong ! 

Edited May 15, 2019 by JJsDad

[wymberley]

1 hour ago, JJsDad said:

Its not just (paid) guides they after after. There is an anti-shooting agenda running through the whole licence. This is, and has been, a covert aim with the Natural England senior management for some time; they just took the oportunity in colusion with Packham, Avery et al, to slip it in while addressing the point(s) made by Wild Justice`s legal challenge.

I have to deal with Natural England periodically as one of my areas is partly within an SSSI. Believe you me, if you own a gun and go wildfowling or carry out any form of vermin control on an area where they have an interest, you will have to jump through lots of hoops and try to beat down lots of bureaucratic barriers before getting your way.

Make no mistake, there are people at the very top of Natural England and the likes of Wild Justice who are hell bent on seeing anyone using a shotgun or rifle being slowly squeezed out of the ability to control all forms of vermin. Once they have effectively stopped that you can bet your bottom dollar they will turn their attention elsewhere. Game birds both wild and raised will be next on the agenda if they get their way with a series of totally restrictive licence`s for vermin. I just hope at sometime in the future, we dont look back on 2019 as the year when everything we have enjoyed for so long, started to go so wrong ! 

I now think that you're absolutely right and am starting to really worry.

"  an unforeseen consequence of our successful legal challenge is that a spotlight has been thrown on the shooting of Woodpigeons."

WJ are lying. They are boasting that their legal challenge was successful. How can it be so when the intention was to have the GLs reworked for the 2020 re-issue? Any success is purely down to the failings of NE.

Plus the fact that I'd thought that we'd seen the end of the NTS fiasco for the forseeable future. Big mistake.

Consequently, for my money there is no doubt what-so-ever that they're only going to stop when we've been forced to do so.

By and large it seems to me that our organisations have done well on this one. As have the shooters that have responded to their requests for input. We can't get directly at WJ - they've made sure of that. It's pointless talking to NE if they won't listen/respond.

There is not much point in wasting resources unnecessarily, so perhaps we should sit tight and wait and see what Defra come up with, using the time to consider what action to take if, yet again, we're shafted. What I'm also sure of is that a passive 500,000 head march in London is of no use. We are going to have to be pro-active and our aim needs to be directly at the decision makers while keeping the public informed of our reasons - contrary to popular belief, they're not entirely stupid.

[JJsDad]

1 hour ago, wymberley said:

By and large it seems to me that our organisations have done well on this one

While only quoting one of your well made points, you are correct throughout your response. This type of public funded `pressure` groups are on the rise on a variety of subjects. While they deny any financial gain from these activities, I have no doubt what-so-ever they are covertly lining their own pockets for organising these groups. My humble view is that they are here to stay while the public funds their agenda`s.

Packham himself is an astute and slippery customer, who uses social media to play the wrongly accused victim every time someone  poses a difficult question. As `The Donald` would say, much of his rhetoric is false news, more commonly called lying. Yet I have shaken my head in disbelief when people on this forum have admitted to not taking part in the survey because they couldnt tell a lie ! Moral principles are great when both sides are telling the truth but in the case of Packham et al, they are telling it like they think Joe Public and the funders of Wild Justice want to hear it. Dont let truth stand in the way of their stated aims.

The varous organisations, not least NGO, put forward a well researched and factual response and we can but wait and see what effect this has on the existing (GL31) and future licences.

As a finale, we just dont seem to show a united front on this forum. There are people having a chuckle that Pigeon Guides will be going out of business as a result of the conditions in GL31 !

I am not a pigeon guide and I have never had the need to use one. But these guys saw an business opportunity and exploited it. The farmer gets paid for someone prepared to protect his crops, the guide gets paid for organising the day and all going well the client gets the chance to put lots of lead in the air. Yet we have fellow shooters who evidently consider their free pigeon shooting is being nicked from under their nose. Welcome to the world of business guys, I suggest you study GL31 carefully, because unless it changes as a result of the current consultation your free fun day pigeon shooting has just become more difficult than you appear to imagine.

Edited May 15, 2019 by JJsDad

[The Mighty Prawn]

22 minutes ago, JJsDad said:

While only quoting one of your well made points, you are correct throughout your response. This type of public funded `pressure` groups are on the rise on a variety of subjects. While they deny any financial gain from these activities, I have no doubt what-so-ever they are covertly lining their own pockets for organising these groups. My humble view is that they are here to stay while the public funds their agenda`s.

Packham himself is an astute and slippery customer, who uses social media to play the wrongly accused victim every time someone  poses a difficult question. As `The Donald` would say, much of his rhetoric is false news, more commonly called lying. Yet I have shaken my head in disbelief when people on this forum have admitted to not taking part in the survey because they couldnt tell a lie ! Moral principles are great when both sides are telling the truth but in the case of Packham et al, they are telling it like they think Joe Public and the funders of Wild Justice want to hear. Dont let truth stand in the way of their stated aims.

The varous organisations, not least NGO, put forward a well researched and factual response and we can but wait and see what effect this has on the existing (GL31) and future licences.

As a finale, we just dont seem to show a united front on this forum. There are people having a chuckle that Pigeon Guides will be going out of business as a result of the conditions in GL31 !

I am not a pigeon guide and I have never had the need to use one. But these guys saw an business opportunity and exploited it. The farmer gets paid for someone prepared to protect his crops, the guide gets paid for organising the day and all going well the client gets the chance to put lots of lead in the air. Yet we have fellow shooters who evidently consider their free pigeon shooting is being nicked from under their nose. Welcome to the world of business guys, I suggest you study GL31 carefully, because unless it changes as a result of the current consultation your free fun day pigeon shooting has just become more difficult than you appear to imagine.

Just adding my two pence, personally speaking my beef with 'guides' is that they prevent locals maintaining some shooting opportunities - there's a good 10 farms by me that are managed by a guide who lets the pigeon shooting to visiting foreign guns and presumably makes a tidy profit from it. I appreciate the farmer can let who they want on and if someone is happy to pay them for access to their land, it just sticks in the craw somewhat that we struggle to get youngsters into the sport without opportunities or having to pay for the privilege. Shooting shouldn't just be for those with the deep pockets. 

[JBS]

Good riddance to them, flooding social media with pictures of bags of hundreds of birds like it’s an every day occurrence, no wonder people want it banned when they advertise it the way they do. 

Plus a lot if not most of the people they take out couldn’t give a **** about the countryside or anything to do with it, that don’t even bother picking up all the empties and dump birds in hedges. All of which I have seen first hand

[mossy835]

1 hour ago, JBS said:

Good riddance to them, flooding social media with pictures of bags of hundreds of birds like it’s an every day occurrence, no wonder people want it banned when they advertise it the way they do. 

Plus a lot if not most of the people they take out couldn’t give a **** about the countryside or anything to do with it, that don’t even bother picking up all the empties and dump birds in hedges. All of which I have seen first hand

 

 

this is a good post, just what the antis like.and its not helping us seing heaps of dead pigons.on forums

[stagboy]

5 hours ago, grog1961 said:

IMPORTANT: this licence does not permit the killing of woodpigeons solely for commercial and/or recreational purposes,

Note the key word here  "solely" . WJ omit this "solely" later in their submission. Pest control can also be commercial and/or recreational at the same time, surely? 

Edited May 15, 2019 by stagboy

[islandgun]

On 15/05/2019 at 18:00, wymberley said:

I now think that you're absolutely right and am starting to really worry.

"  an unforeseen consequence of our successful legal challenge is that a spotlight has been thrown on the shooting of Woodpigeons."

WJ are lying. They are boasting that their legal challenge was successful. How can it be so when the intention was to have the GLs reworked for the 2020 re-issue? Any success is purely down to the failings of NE.

Plus the fact that I'd thought that we'd seen the end of the NTS fiasco for the forseeable future. Big mistake.

Consequently, for my money there is no doubt what-so-ever that they're only going to stop when we've been forced to do so.

By and large it seems to me that our organisations have done well on this one. As have the shooters that have responded to their requests for input. We can't get directly at WJ - they've made sure of that. It's pointless talking to NE if they won't listen/respond.

There is not much point in wasting resources unnecessarily, so perhaps we should sit tight and wait and see what Defra come up with, using the time to consider what action to take if, yet again, we're shafted. What I'm also sure of is that a passive 500,000 head march in London is of no use. We are going to have to be pro-active and our aim needs to be directly at the decision makers while keeping the public informed of our reasons - contrary to popular belief, they're not entirely stupid.

This is why I like the challenge fronted by SBS  [Song bird Survival] as mentioned in other thread, people arn't interested in complaints from shooting orgs and will always side with the conservationist's. Likewise they will most certainly listen to an org that plainly states the facts that song birds are under threat from predation, this is coming from a scientifically based conservation organisation, .. I strongly believe this is the key