European election voting

[JohnfromUK]

If both Labour and Tory are 'leave', then with about 75% of seats in parliament between them - leave should have been easy.

The fact is some (not all that small) minority of Tories MPs and nearly all Labour MPs have voted down every option to leave.  If both Labour and Tory were really leave it should have been dead easy to leave and we would be out now.

May has produced divisively poor 'options' and Corbyn has (and has whipped his MPs) to opposed every leave option presented.

[Newbie to this]

The fact still remains that the Brexit Party stormed these elections and are now the biggest single party in the EU parliament

2 minutes ago, oowee said:

This is about right. Informed analysts have  the split as 44.4 % v's 34.9 % vote share of definite remain v's definite leave. What is clear is the overwhelming desire to see some sort of deal rather than crashing out with no deal. A confirmatory vote would seem to be the most sensible way forward and to see Brexit as a process rather than as a result. Easier and far less expensive to work the country further out than to work back in. 

I'll accept a confirmation vote, so long as remain isn't on it. We have already had that vote and a democratic decision was made. Leave won.

[henry d]

Surely in a democracy the option to change your mind is part of that democratic process?

[oowee]

2 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

The fact still remains that the Brexit Party stormed these elections and are now the biggest single party in the EU parliament

I'll accept a confirmation vote, so long as remain isn't on it. We have already had that vote and a democratic decision was made. Leave won.

Won 🙄 what? Three years of ....all, a divided union, a great trade deal, restricted travel, work  and education, reduced international R&D, reduced tax receipts, improved international standing. Fortunately we can look forward to er .......... more of the same?

 

[Raja Clavata]

24 minutes ago, mick miller said:

Both Labour and Conservative campaigned that they would honour the results of the referendum and Leave the EU. Are you now saying that the opposite was true? Totally delusional.

 

I did not say that. You've claimed I have my head in the sand, fingers in my ears and totally deluded. Reflect on what has ensued since the referendum vote and just think about what you've actually said.

[hedge]

I think the assumption that the EU results are just another reflection of the remain/exit vote is a little short-sighted. It's just becoming another Remain/Brexit slanging match. 

A lot of people could have voted for Lib Dem and Greens for other reasons and might not be purely `remain` focussed. After all, they have manifesto's and other policies. The Brexit party don't have such complex issues and just want to leave the EU, so arguable, their supporters all want to Brexit.

Having said that, if we did have another referendum, I'd expect Remain to win (best of 3 anyone?)

For me, the biggest impact is the who the electorate didn't vote for - Torys and Labour. Possibly just the world's biggest protest vote, but also a clear message that inaction, dithering and lack of clarity has really upset the voters. 

I'm not sure that people would be so willing to do that in a GE though - but you never know. 

What the EU elections did show was the impact of proportional representation. Not sure we'll ever see that in a GE though.

Personally, I can't stand Corbyn and Boris doesn't float my boat (not many of them do) - so I'm still wondering what I'll do when a GE does eventually happen.

Still a very interesting time for UK politics.

 

 

[Raja Clavata]

10 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

The fact still remains that the Brexit Party stormed these elections and are now the biggest single party in the EU parliament

Nobody is contesting it (at least I hope not)

I'll accept a confirmation vote, so long as remain isn't on it. We have already had that vote and a democratic decision was made. Leave won.

So a vote between a withdrawal agreement and no deal, interesting proposition, the outcome would probably be the WA which is BRINO. Or perhaps only people who voted leave should be allowed to vote second time around? The logic is as flawed as not having remain on the second vote...

 

[Gordon R]

If there was a confirmatory vote, why do so many assume the result would be any different. The success of the Brexit Party seems to have been totally ignored.  What do we want - another three years of Remainers claiming it should be the best of five?

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, hedge said:

Personally, I can't stand Corbyn or his policies and Boris doesn't float my boat (not many of them do) - so I'm still wondering what I'll do when a GE does eventually happen.

Subject to the addition in red above - I am in the same position.  BUT I do believe that the referendum result MUST be carried through, and avoiding a hard left administration are the two key issues.  Those will therefore be what guide me in making my choice when the time comes.  Ultimately avoiding a hard left administration is top priority for me because that would do vastly more long term damage (economically and on the international stage) than another few years in the EU. 

[oowee]

3 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

If there was a confirmatory vote, why do so many assume the result would be any different. The success of the Brexit Party seems to have been totally ignored.  What do we want - another three years of Remainers claiming it should be the best of five?

I can't see the vote having changed much, if any. I had to smile at the Lib Dem's assumption that a further vote would be for remain. Imagine the situation where they somehow managed to get coalition power and put it to a peoples vote where leave was confirmed. We would have changed a leave coalition (cons and dup) for a remain coalition both of which would be trying to deliver the same thing. 

If we had Mays deal on the table but without the NI backstop would that get parliament's backing? 

[Raja Clavata]

I see a number of upsides:

• In theory at least, a confirmatory vote would provide a mechanism for those of us who voted remain because we could not accept the ambiguity of what leave meant in 2016 to increase the overall majority of the leave swing by voting leave this time
• A vote confirming a majority for specific form of leave would put the Remain lobby to bed once and for all

What are the downsides?

The problem seems to be and the irony of it all perhaps is that we keep hearing "leave means leave" and that people who voted leave knew what they were voting for. We now have people saying that a combined group of leave with no deal and leave with a deal is a bigger majority than remain. OK so assuming that's the case, then:

• The leave vote is fragmented between (at least) two versions of Brexit
• Based on the above not all people that voted leave could, by definition, have been voting for the same thing; yes individually people knew what they were voting for, collectively, nah!
• Remain is a united position - change the slogan to "Remain means Remain" 

[mick miller]

Another interestingly little factoid. If the results of the EU election were extrapolated to a GE guess what? Brexit party would have swept the board in England and Wales. The Tories and Labour would be lucky to share 15 seats between them.

7 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

• Based on the above not all people that voted leave could, by definition, have been voting for the same thing; yes individually people knew what they were voting for, collectively, nah!

I love this remain 'argument'. It seems they unanimously believe that anyone that voted to leave didn't understand what they were voting for. The odd thing is, everyone I ask who voted to leave seems to know precisely what they voted for, to leave with a good deal or, if that isn't on offer, no deal at all until one is renegotiated. Seems the only ones who are confused are those that voted remain then.

Edited May 28, 2019 by mick miller

[JohnfromUK]

5 minutes ago, oowee said:

If we had Mays deal on the table but without the NI backstop would that get parliament's backing?

I think it was always a bad deal ......... but yes, I think it probably would have got through ...... just (mainly on the basis that with the DUP on board, (most of) the ERG would have reluctantly come on board - or so most of them said).

[Rewulf]

37 minutes ago, oowee said:

This is about right. Informed analysts have  the split as 44.4 % v's 34.9 % vote share of definite remain v's definite leave. What is clear is the overwhelming desire to see some sort of deal rather than crashing out with no deal. A confirmatory vote would seem to be the most sensible way forward and to see Brexit as a process rather than as a result. Easier and far less expensive to work the country further out than to work back in. 

WhIch Guardian/soros paid for analysts were these , do you have a link to these ''informed people' ?

 

30 minutes ago, henry d said:

Surely in a democracy the option to change your mind is part of that democratic process?

You can change your mind, next general election, not before the last one was implemented.

[Raja Clavata]

2 minutes ago, mick miller said:

I love this remain 'argument'. It seems they unanimously believe that anyone that voted to leave didn't understand what they were voting for. The odd thing is, everyone I ask who voted to leave seems to know precisely what they voted for, to leave with a good deal or, if that isn't on offer, no deal at all until one is renegotiated. Seems the only ones who are confused are those that voted remain then.

A vote for the Brexit Party in the EU elections was supposed to be a vote to leave without a deal, Farage said that himself. If he'd been explicit on a deal being preferred to no deal then he might well have got more votes than he did.

The fact remains that the Brexit Party got around about the same percentage of overall votes as Dominic Cummings indentified as Ardent Brexiteers in the original referendum. That's the third that are never going to change their mind on Brexit and presumably furious at the way the whole thing has been handled so far.

[panoma1]

We could have an annual "in or out" referendum, then remainers and brexiteers could at least get the chance to stay/leave the EU one year out of two!......this is no more silly than holding another referendum, when the decision has already been made! Or do we keep on having referenda until remainers get the answer they want?

[Raja Clavata]

Folks, this is starting to look a lot like Brexit Thread II - should this discussion not be switched to the original mother of all pointless arguments thread?

[bostonmick]

35 minutes ago, henry d said:

Surely in a democracy the option to change your mind is part of that democratic process?

Don't you mean that those in power can keep pushing out referendum until they get the answer they want rather than what those they are supposed to serve want. Do away with the votes and look we have a dictatorship. 

[Newbie to this]

24 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

The logic is as flawed as not having remain on the second vote...

How so? We've had that vote and leave already won! It wouldn’t be democratic to run with remain being an option. Let's say we did and remain won, where would my democracy be? 

[mick miller]

13 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

You can change your mind, next general election, not before the last one was implemented.

This. Otherwise, why bother ever again?

The one thing I don't understand is why, if Brexit is going to be so utterly catastrophic for the UK (it won't  - 77 (the majority) of the 135 countries that trade with the EU do so on WTO terms), why not embrace it? Surely, when all the thicko, gammon, white, fascist, racist, over 60, nearly dead, extreme right wingers realise that the dream was in fact a nightmare the country will unite against the terrible error of judgment they made and wish to rejoin the glorious union, fully, completely, even adopting the wonderful euro (such a success) and we can all live happily ever after?

Edited May 28, 2019 by mick miller

[Newbie to this]

38 minutes ago, oowee said:

Won 🙄 what? 

A democratic vote.

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, Newbie to this said:

How so? We've had that vote and leave already won! It wouldn’t be democratic to run with remain being an option. Let's say we did and remain won, where would my democracy be? 

Do you honestly think there'd be a second vote that didn't include remain as an option? I understand you would like it that way but do you really think that would happen? Your position would ensure the public have no further say on the matter - are you happy with that?

[oowee]

 

6 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

WhIch Guardian/soros paid for analysts were these , do you have a link to these ''informed people' ?

Your right lets not allow considered opinion to get in the way of a good story.

[mick miller]

So, no facts to back up your informed factoids then? Surprise!

 

[Newbie to this]

1 minute ago, Raja Clavata said:

Do you honestly think there'd be a second vote that didn't include remain as an option? I understand you would like it that way but do you really think that would happen? Your position would ensure the public have no further say on the matter - are you happy with that?

I'm not ok with a democratic decision being overturned.