Brexit - merged threads

[ShootingEgg]

8 hours ago, Mice! said:

So TM called a general election on advice and got spanked loosing her majority.

Lost her majority, BUT the country voted her in to complete Brexit, so a referendum and a GE saying get on with Brexit. 

The EU will give us nothing, yet most people in the UK are hell bent on blaming our govt. We didnt vkte to hard or soft boil this. We voted to stay or leave. 

[12gauge82]

9 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

Do you have concrete reasons to propose as to why it's in Parliaments interest for us to remain in the EU?

Hard Brexit isn't on the table, it never was and you're projecting your personal view of what leave meant on 17.4 million votes.

My best pal, who voted leave, signed the revocation petition as did my brother but I'm happy to accept that they are the only two leave turn coats in the country.

Out of interest, if a leave voter now decides they want a second vote are they also an anti democrat?

No I don't have concrete reasons, but then common sense would say there's at least some there who would choose remain under any circumstances, my point was we haven't all agreed that it was dispelled as you stated. 

Hard brexit was on the table before the referendum, it was on the table at the general election and how many times did TM say "brexit means Brexit", "no deal is better than a bad deal"? Hard brexit is also the only way of delivering on the Brexit referendum if the EU wouldn't give us a free trade deal, they stated before the referendum and all the way through, that a free trade deal was impossible, therefore only leaving a hard brexit as an option, so it is exactly what was voted for, "soft brexit" is what was never discussed and was only invented after the referendum went the "wrong" way. 

Anyone can sign any petition they want and can express any opinion they want, free speech is or should be one of this countrys most important values, but there's a difference between, you, for instance stating we shouldn't leave, or ignore the referendum result and parliament actually doing it, if we don't leave the EU and when I say leave, I mean leave the the EU club and not set up another club with practically the same rules, democracy is dead, its simple, but just like a barrister would in a court case, its being complicated to frustrate the Uks decision to leave by MPs who are putting their own personal views before that of the Country, it's outrageous! 

If an ex leave voter changes their mind that's obviously fine, but how can they, there can't be another referendum until the first ones been enacted, that decision was made nearly 3 years ago and still they refuse to honour the decision, can you honestly not see the glaring issues and implications to the future democratic standing of our political system if we don't leave? For me, that is what brexit is now about, do I live in the UK or is it really no different to North korea. 

[scouser]

On a lighter note,we don’t need parliament sorting it out, we need GUY FAWKES.

[12gauge82]

5 minutes ago, scouser said:

On a lighter note,we don’t need parliament sorting it out, we need GUY FAWKES.

The way its going I tend to agree 😂😂😂

[Scully]

1 hour ago, walshie said:

Yes. Anti-democratic is anti-democratic regardless of allegiance. 

This. If anyone is trying to ignore or overturn the democratically arrived at referendum result then it has to be anti-democratic.

All those who signed the petition to revoke Article 50 and stop Brexit, are acting undemocratically. 

You have to honour the outcome of a democratically held vote otherwise it’s chaos, which is why we have what we now have. 

Those who aren’t happy can by all means campaign for another referendum after the result of the 2016 one has been honoured, but any attempt to ignore, overturn or thwart that process before its implementation is undemocratic. It can’t be described as anything else. 

Edited March 26, 2019 by Scully

[panoma1]

10 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

won by 27 votes!

I demand another vote!! 😡........or three!.......and if I don't get it, I will vote in any petition to revoke the result....cos they didn't know what they were voting for......and it's obviously the wrong decision!

[panoma1]

9 minutes ago, Scully said:

This. If anyone is trying to ignore or overturn the democratically arrived at referendum result then it has to be anti-democratic.

All those who signed the petition to revoke Article 50 and stop Brexit, are acting undemocratically. 

You have to honour the outcome of a democratically held vote otherwise it’s chaos, which is why we have what we now have. 

Those who aren’t happy can by all means campaign for another referendum after the result of the 2016 one has been honoured, but any attempt to ignore, overturn or thwart that process before its implementation is undemocratic. It can’t be described as anything else. 

Simple......you can think it and you can say it, but if you take positive action to thwart Brexit you are anti democratic!

[ditchman]

as i said before the MP's are playing very dangerous games.................if by default or dare i say it ..design we end up staying in the EU in some various form or totally getting sucked up by the EU..............there will be a few moans on the streets.............then the people will ...in order to get back at the traitorus MP's will vote them out and vote in a far right alternative..............these groups are waiting in the wings just rubbing their hands and waiting................

 

[Raja Clavata]

26 minutes ago, Scully said:

This. If anyone is trying to ignore or overturn the democratically arrived at referendum result then it has to be anti-democratic.

All those who signed the petition to revoke Article 50 and stop Brexit, are acting undemocratically. 

You have to honour the outcome of a democratically held vote otherwise it’s chaos, which is why we have what we now have. 

Those who aren’t happy can by all means campaign for another referendum after the result of the 2016 one has been honoured, but any attempt to ignore, overturn or thwart that process before its implementation is undemocratic. It can’t be described as anything else. 

So, if Remain won how many years breather would Farage et al have given us before they started banging the leave drum again?

I get what you are saying in a pure and simplistic sense but the problem is that the 17.4M people who voted leave don't all agree on the specifics of leave hence the division.

People are sick of the whole thing, it was rotten to the core from the outset and has just got worse.

10 minutes ago, ditchman said:

then the people will ...in order to get back at the traitorus MP's will vote them out and vote in a far right alternative..............these groups are waiting in the wings just rubbing their hands and waiting................

 

Despite the current turmoil I still hold the resolve that we, the people of the United Kingdom, are better and know better than that...

[12gauge82]

19 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

 

I get what you are saying in a pure and simplistic sense but the problem is that the 17.4M people who voted leave don't all agree on the specifics of leave hence the division.

People are sick of the whole thing, it was rotten to the core from the outset and has just got worse.

Despite the current turmoil I still hold the resolve that we, the people of the United Kingdom, are better and know better than that...

You've chosen to ignore my earlier reply, the UK population knew exactly what they were voting for and in fact, we knew a damn side more than when we voted to join what was the common market in the first place. 

People are sick of it for two reasons, one is some remainers who don't believe in democracy and want to see the vote overturned, the other is people who voted leave and want to see the countrys decision and the largest vote in history respected. 

I hope your right about your last paragraph, but I like ditchman have genuine fears over that, I think looking back at history can teach us a lot about what happens when the people are stood on and ignored. 

Edited March 26, 2019 by 12gauge82

[panoma1]

22 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

So, if Remain won how many years breather would Farage et al have given us before they started banging the leave drum again?

I get what you are saying in a pure and simplistic sense but the problem is that the 17.4M people who voted leave don't all agree on the specifics of leave hence the division.

 

Once the result of the referendum has been honoured and implemented, anyone can start a campaign to join the EU, that is our democratic right.

The ballot paper didn't include any "specifics" it was a simple question, remain or leave..... 17.4 million were in the majority and voted leave! No ifs, buts or maybes...."leave means leave"

 

Edited March 26, 2019 by panoma1

[Scully]

20 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

So, if Remain won how many years breather would Farage et al have given us before they started banging the leave drum again?

I HAVE NO IDEA. 

I get what you are saying in a pure and simplistic sense but the problem is that the 17.4M people who voted leave don't all agree on the specifics of leave hence the division.

I DISAGREE. THE 17.4 MILLION VOTED ON THE STRENGTH OF THE OPTIONS WHICH WERE AVAILABLE TO THEM, WHICH WERE LEAVE OR REMAIN. IT COULDNT BE ANY CLEARER! 

 

 

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, panoma1 said:

Once the result of the referendum has been honoured and implemented, anyone can start a campaign to join the EU, that is our democratic right.
Sent from my iPad

You didn't answer my question.

I'm sorry but you are WRONG and you're making the rules up as you go along.

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, Scully said:

 

Farage conceded on the night of the referendum but vowed to fight on with is leave campaign - which of course was his democratic right.

I wonder how many of the 17.4M people who voted leave work (or worked) in the manufacturing sectors and now realise they effectively voted to make themselves redundant in the process.

[12gauge82]

2 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Farage conceded on the night of the referendum but vowed to fight on with is leave campaign - which of course was his democratic right.

I wonder how many of the 17.4M people who voted leave work (or worked) in the manufacturing sectors and now realise they effectively voted to make themselves redundant in the process.

I see you've again chosen to ignore my point that the county knew exactly what it voted for. 

The fact there could be a handful of people who regret their vote is irrelevant, there will obviously be some people on both sides out of the millions that voted who would vote a different way, that would be true of any vote, election or referendum. 

12 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

You didn't answer my question.

.

You still haven't answered mine either 😂

[Dekers]

4 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Farage conceded on the night of the referendum but vowed to fight on with is leave campaign - which of course was his democratic right.

I wonder how many of the 17.4M people who voted leave work (or worked) in the manufacturing sectors and now realise they effectively voted to make themselves redundant in the process.

I wonder how many of the remain voters actually took any time to consider anything, they did not understand how much of a NET CONTRIBUTOR we are to the EU and how much of our independence and control we have given away! 

After every General Election the losing party vows to fight on but the country gets on with the result until the next election.

That's Democracy!

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, 12gauge82 said:

I see you've again chosen to ignore my point that the county knew exactly what it voted for. 

The fact there could be a handful of people who regret their vote is irrelevant, there will obviously be some people on both sides out of the millions that voted who would vote a different way, that would be true of any vote, election or referendum. 

You can't credibly claim that the country knew exactly what it voted for, you can't project your version of leave on 17,399,999 other leave voters, there is no data to support your claims.

A handful, seriously...

[Mice!]

4 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

wonder how many of the 17.4M people who voted leave work (or worked) in the manufacturing sectors and now realise they effectively voted to make themselves redundant in the process.

probably a lot because we're already seeing jobs going abroad they always have.

I've said before people in normal jobs want our country ruled and governed by our country, not someone unaccountable in Brussels or Germany 

[oowee]

Time has moved on sonce 3 years ago. Its clear that the referendum was poorly thought out and even more badly execured. The electorate has also changed. Its time now for a complete rethink. Long extension and or withdrawl of a50. Lets start again its i. The interest of the uk to get this right. 

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, Dekers said:

I wonder how many of the remain voters actually took any time to consider anything, they did not understand how much of a NET CONTRIBUTOR we are to the EU and how much of our independence and control we have given away! 

After every General Election the losing party vows to fight on but the country gets on with the result until the next election.

That's Democracy!

So now the Remain voters are stupid?

We've waited 3 years for the victors to enact their win, we are still waiting, none the wiser and frankly sick of it.

[Mice!]

2 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

You can't credibly claim that the country knew exactly what it voted for, you can't project your version of leave on 17,399,999 other leave voters, there is no data to support your claims.

A handful, seriously...

we voted to leave Europe, but MPs won't let us.

 

1 hour ago, ditchman said:

as i said before the MP's are playing very dangerous games.................if by default or dare i say it ..design we end up staying in the EU in some various form or totally getting sucked up by the EU..............there will be a few moans on the streets.............then the people will ...in order to get back at the traitorus MP's will vote them out and vote in a far right alternative..............these groups are waiting in the wings just rubbing their hands and waiting................

 

which country had an election maybe last year and there was a big swing to the right? Was it Holland?? It was seen as really dramatic, and it could well be the same here.

I've no idea what this might mean for us but i think it will shake things up, and not in a good way.

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, Mice! said:

we voted to leave Europe, but MPs won't let us.

 

And has it not occurred to you that there may be very valid reasons for that!? I'm still yet to hear a credible reason why it would be in any MPs interest to avoid Brexit on the basis of self interest in the sense of their role in Parliament.

So just to examine your point about leaving Europe - no deal isn't gonna happen, May's deal is not popular, let's face the facts of where we are, the reality we find ourselves in, what are the sensible outcomes here?

[Dekers]

5 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

So now the Remain voters are stupid?

We've waited 3 years for the victors to enact their win, we are still waiting, none the wiser and frankly sick of it.

NO, we have waited for TM, a confirmed REMAINER to screw up the exit and stay a member!

[12gauge82]

1 minute ago, Raja Clavata said:

You can't credibly claim that the country knew exactly what it voted for, you can't project your version of leave on 17,399,999 other leave voters, there is no data to support your claims.

A handful, seriously...

I'm not projecting anything, you are, I'm saying leavers voted for leave and remainers voted remain knowing full well the consequences. 

I again point out that when we joined in the original referendum, it was to join the common market with 7 other countries of similar standing, it was basically a free trade deal, no one then knew what we had joined or what it would morph into, a 30 year sealing order was put on it under the official secrets act, so if anyone didn't know what they voted on it was when we initially joined. 

There were two options, the country voted leave, to leave the EU means leaving the club and its rules which to any sane person would mean leaving the customs market, the single market, ending free movement of people and stopping the UK payment and EU court supremacy, we were told that before the referendum and the alleged consequences if we did, so it really is that simple. If the government never intended to action a leave outcome they shouldn't of had a referendum, but they did, so they need to action it, to claim that the country didn't know that voting leave would, shock, horror result in us leaving EU membership is ridiculous! 

2 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

what are the sensible outcomes here?

A clean Brexit! 

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, Dekers said:

NO, we have waited for TM, a confirmed REMAINER to screw up the exit and stay a member!

And that's not my or any remain voters fault but we are all in this together and need to find a way out. Bleating on about he said this, she promised that, leave means leave yada yada yada isn't getting us anywhere.

You may not have voted for this but neither did any remainers, this is not the doing of remainers, this has arisen due to leavers buying the pup they were sold. It's not good, it's not cool, far from it but a number appear to be coming round to the fact that the process is fundamentally flawed and needs resetting.