Brexit - merged threads

[ShootingEgg]

2 minutes ago, oowee said:

3 minutes ago, ShootingEgg said:

Why give the money to them to just get some of it back. Leave means keep it all and use where the country wants and needs

What money? The gold receipts

Do we or do we not hand billions over to then get some back? Or have i made that up? Is that not part of the 'membership' of this wonderful club we are part of... 

[SpringDon]

2 minutes ago, oowee said:

We did not know that at the time. We could all be rich with hindsight. 

Why cannot you run the economy on debt? Most of us run our lives based on debt.

Ok, that’s a very big question, But briefly- sovereign debt is borrowing from the future (children/young people). Money is a construct to transfer value, it has no intrinsic value. Debt can only increase for as long as people are prepared to lend and the inflation that debt inevitably causes can be exported (ie to developing nations); both of these conditions are starting to disappear.

[Jaymo]

47 minutes ago, Scully said:

I note both oowee and Jaymo are currently perusing thecthread, so I’ll ask you two also; would you like to see the referendum result overturned? 

Nope, I’ve accepted the result but as has been mentioned, the method of withdrawal wasn’t defined and it needs to be in the best interests of the Country— cutting of Noses in spite of faces springs to mind.

 

[oowee]

9 minutes ago, ShootingEgg said:

Do we or do we not hand billions over to then get some back? Or have i made that up? Is that not part of the 'membership' of this wonderful club we are part of... 

Ah I did not realise we were back on that. Yes we do hand over billions (13) to get back some public sector (4) plus private sector (1.5) leaving net cost of 7.5. We then get very generous trade terms and protection of the market within and without the EU that we cannot do on our own. 

 

4 minutes ago, SpringDon said:

Ok, that’s a very big question, But briefly- sovereign debt is borrowing from the future (children/young people). Money is a construct to transfer value, it has no intrinsic value. Debt can only increase for as long as people are prepared to lend and the inflation that debt inevitably causes can be exported (ie to developing nations); both of these conditions are starting to disappear.

So we can run a country on debt and more so we can make profit on the spending to pay the debt and grow the gdp. I do not think we should be borrowing to meet current expenditure though. 

Edited February 4, 2019 by oowee

[SpringDon]

44 minutes ago, oowee said:

<snip>

So we can run a country on debt and more so we can make profit on the spending to pay the debt and grow the gdp. I do not think we should be borrowing to meet current expenditure though. 

 

Yes but increasingly no. Sovereign debt used for infrastructure spending can boost gdp, notably the new deal in America and in post war Europe. Private debt boosts spending and indirectly gdp.

However, the trouble with debt is that slowing  growth means that more debt will be in existence than ever (in a lifetime) be paid back. This is the stage we are at and, as you address in your last point, governments are borrowing money to pay interest on existing bond issues. This is not sustainable.

Whilst this is not brexit related, it one of the main reasons I voted leave because I think the eurozone is doomed in its current form.

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, Jaymo said:

Nope, I’ve accepted the result but as has been mentioned, the method of withdrawal wasn’t defined

 

But it has, to leave the EU means leaving all the rules that being a member of the EU makes up, otherwise we've left nothing but a legal name. 

[JohnfromUK]

2 hours ago, SpringDon said:

it is becoming apparent that you cannot run an economy like ours based on debt either.

+1

2 hours ago, ShootingEgg said:

We think we are hard up with cuts now, let labour back in and we will. Be F'd in year to come. And it wont be austerity, it will be poverty... For all

+1

[JohnfromUK]

2 hours ago, oowee said:

We mostly all spend what we do not have.

I don't.  Borrowing is a costly exercise, only justifiable under particular conditions.  It should not be undertaken just for short term gains.

[pinfireman]

3 hours ago, ShootingEgg said:

I know labour sold it off, i am just stating what has happened. And also that the funding gets given to the eu to be given back, so i dont see an issue of it staying in uk and being given to the relevant areas fisrt hand not sent off then send a bit back. 

True.

[panoma1]

28 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

I don't.  Borrowing is a costly exercise, only justifiable under particular conditions.  It should not be undertaken just for short term gains.

+1

[pinfireman]

4 hours ago, oowee said:

A very clever move at the time. Turning gold into cash that in turn could be used to earn money. 

The gold standard itself was abandoned back in the first world war and then again in the 30's. You cannot run an economy like ours based on gold. 

Just getting to it was trying to refresh my memory re UK gold whilst wondering what drugs Rewulf is on. 

If the people of the UK decide to overturn the result of the referendum than that's the will of the people and that should happen. For now the vote is to leave and we need to get on with it as this uncertainty is expensive. The sooner we do it the sooner we can get back to all the other stuff that needs sorting.

"A very clever move at the time   Turning gold into cash that in turn could be used to earn money." A stupid move at the time! It,s only a clever move when you make a profit! The idiot Brown informed the world of his intentions so far in advance, the world,s bullion dealers  pushed down the price of gold, and Brown got less than half it,s value prior to shooting his mouth off!  My wife worked in a highly responsible position at the world,s  largest dealers, and I can tell you that her former workmates were laughing their socks off at Brown! What a numpty!

The same idiot, in a City of London Mayor,s Banquet speech, announced that he was removing "the heavy hand of regulation"  on financial dealings (replacing the Financial Services Authority with the  Financial Conduct Authority, a toothless tiger!) It was little wonder that, within a few years the banks had run riot with stupid lending etc.............then he had to bail them out with taxpayers money, leaving the Treasury skint by 2010. The man was an idiot!..

4 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Most remainers will want it all to go away.But...

The nightmare landscape they , in their fevered vision, see coming after March, will be full of gloating racists and xenophobes , oowees stock will take a hit, and those pesky 'ultra right' wing 'nationalists Mr Verhofstadt warned us about will take control of our councils. Tommy Robinson becomes home Sec.
You will not be able to leave the country, as flights and ferries will not be allowed to fly or sail anywhere near mainland Europe.
Starvation and famine will ensue, with food shortages and our medicine stocks drying up, martial law is guaranteed .

The Americans will be forced to come to our aid with stocks of chlorinated chicken that never goes off, and buffalo steaks with that many steroids in them that men become voracious sex beasts into their 70s and 80s.
We will probably have to go to war with the new axis troops of Germany France and Austria (again) whilst the 'allies' of UK ,USA, Italy and Poland will give them a sound thrashing, as France surrenders before war actually breaks out.
This leads to a new age of prosperity, and rich oil reserves are discovered just off Sheppey.

We help rebuild Germany with our new found wealth, and 5 years later, proposals are put forward to begin a 'trade partnership' between the countries of Europe.
See?  Every cloud and all that ...😂

Brexit IS happening folks, like it or not, for good or bad, you are on board the good ship Blighty, so hang on to your hats, the louder you scream the faster we go.

Edited February 4, 2019 by pinfireman
spelling

[old man]

3 hours ago, ShootingEgg said:

Lets be honest, no one in their right mind would!! And it really confuses me as to why people who want to remain still dont see the eu for what it is.

Absolutely correct in my opinion.

I continue to be mystified as to why some would continue to support such an organisation as the EU? 

As for DisMay, she needs to seek help in understanding the rubbish deal she and her lap dogs chose to propose? Who in their right mind (apart from uswould go for any deal whereby the cost is the same or dearer but the quality and quantity poorer with a legal clause making us buy more sub standard stuff regularly for the forseeable future?

 Defeats me, thankfully!

What apathetic shower with a whiff of treachery in the air..

 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

4 hours ago, oowee said:

If the people of the UK decide to overturn the result of the referendum than that's the will of the people and that should happen. For now the vote is to leave and we need to get on with it as this uncertainty is expensive. The sooner we do it the sooner we can get back to all the other stuff that needs sorting.

fairly standard Remoaner viewpoint, keep having referendums until the answer changes!

[Scully]

3 hours ago, Jaymo said:

Nope, I’ve accepted the result but as has been mentioned, the method of withdrawal wasn’t defined and it needs to be in the best interests of the Country— cutting of Noses in spite of faces springs to mind.

 

The method of leaving wasn't defined because the referendum vote didn't consist of provisos, it was a plain and simple 'leave' or 'remain' choice. There was no 'dependant on whether it is in the best interests of the country' clause, and especially no 'dependant on the way the people vote' clause. We were given two choices, and the majority voted to leave.

To me, leaving the EU means to sever all ties, especially any that incur a burden of any type, especially a financial one. 

If you claim to have accepted the result, what would be an acceptable method to you, of leaving?  

[Scully]

4 hours ago, oowee said:

 

 However if the people get another vote and it's overturned then that is also a democratic decision.

 

 

 

Ok, so having had our 'once in a generation' .......'ensure you vote as there won't be another ' democratically held referendum , you think it is acceptable to try to overturn the will of the majority by having another?  What is democratic about holding a second vote in the hope it will overturn the result of the first? After all, there can be no other reason to hold one. 
 

[pinfireman]

[Dekers]

So, if we had another referendum would the remoaners accept that if they lost, or once again moan that all those who voted to leave were uneducated idiots?

***, how many referendum do they want, even if they won it would only be democratic to have yet another referendum in a couple of years so we can leave again!

[oowee]

3 minutes ago, Scully said:

Ok, so having had our 'once in a generation' .......'ensure you vote as there won't be another ' democratically held referendum , you think it is acceptable to try to overturn the will of the majority by having another?  What is democratic about holding a second vote in the hope it will overturn the result of the first? After all, there can be no other reason to hold one. 
 

Yes. No one has the right to tell the people its once in a lifetime vote we do not want to live in a dictatorship.

A vote is democratic no ifs no buts. If people decide they want another then so be it. I am not asking for one I think we should get on with the one we have but if we can't make our mind up and decide what we want at political level then the people should decide.  

[TIGHTCHOKE]

2 minutes ago, oowee said:

Yes. No one has the right to tell the people its once in a lifetime vote we do not want to live in a dictatorship.

A vote is democratic no ifs no buts. If people decide they want another then so be it. I am not asking for one I think we should get on with the one we have but if we can't make our mind up and decide what we want at political level then the people should decide.  

Your definition is very different to many of us.

Just keep voting lads, I'm sure you'll get it right eventually!

[Newbie to this]

22 hours ago, Retsdon said:

"...Equally complex supply chains exist amongst Asian tiger economies and just-in-time delivery of component parts work effectively, without these economies being part of either a single market or a customs union.'

But they are part of a single market. It's called ASEAN, which is currently in the process of expanding into RCEP (regional comprehensive economic partnership) consisting of the original ASEAN countires plus Koriea, China, Japan, Austraila  India and New Zealand. It's a massive free trade area .https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_Comprehensive_Economic_Partnership . 

So how come your man doesn't know this?

 

 

 

21 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

Now that you would have to take up with him, but I think you have taken his statement out of context, I think the single market and customs union he is talking about is the EU. He is stating that the Asian car manufacturers are not part of the EU but still operate from the outside. Again just my take on it, maybe you could email him and get it all cleared up.

 

21 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

@Retsdon 

I found his email if you want to correct him

d.blake@city.ac.uk

 

How did you get on, did he reply?

 

55 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Your definition is very different to many of us.

Just keep voting lads, I'm sure you'll get it right eventually!

Absolutely, where do you stop.

Maybe we should have a general election immediately after the last one, before the result of it is seen through and the winners form a government.

People may have changed their mind you know.

Edited February 4, 2019 by Newbie to this

[12gauge82]

5 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Most remainers will want it all to go away.But...

The nightmare landscape they , in their fevered vision, see coming after March, will be full of gloating racists and xenophobes , oowees stock will take a hit, and those pesky 'ultra right' wing 'nationalists Mr Verhofstadt warned us about will take control of our councils. Tommy Robinson becomes home Sec.
You will not be able to leave the country, as flights and ferries will not be allowed to fly or sail anywhere near mainland Europe.
Starvation and famine will ensue, with food shortages and our medicine stocks drying up, martial law is guaranteed .

The Americans will be forced to come to our aid with stocks of chlorinated chicken that never goes off, and buffalo steaks with that many steroids in them that men become voracious sex beasts into their 70s and 80s.
We will probably have to go to war with the new axis troops of Germany France and Austria (again) whilst the 'allies' of UK ,USA, Italy and Poland will give them a sound thrashing, as France surrenders before war actually breaks out.
This leads to a new age of prosperity, and rich oil reserves are discovered just off Sheppey.

We help rebuild Germany with our new found wealth, and 5 years later, proposals are put forward to begin a 'trade partnership' between the countries of Europe.
See?  Every cloud and all that ...😂

Brexit IS happening folks, like it or not, for good or bad, you are on board the good ship Blighty, so hang on to your hats, the louder you scream the faster we go.

 

😂😂😂

That's nearly as bad as Osbornes vision if the leave vote won. 

[Scully]

32 minutes ago, oowee said:

Yes. No one has the right to tell the people its once in a lifetime vote we do not want to live in a dictatorship.

A vote is democratic no ifs no buts. If people decide they want another then so be it. I am not asking for one I think we should get on with the one we have but if we can't make our mind up and decide what we want at political level then the people should decide.  

So you DO believe it to be acceptable to hold another referendum to overturn the vote of the first. At last; thankyou for your honesty. I think you and I have very different views as to what constitutes democracy and dictatorship however. 

Your answers are almost verbatim remainer rhetoric.....the people have already voted ( despite what some may claim ) and they voted to leave; it is now up to politicians to enact the will of the people, not to interpret the result to suit. 

[oowee]

38 minutes ago, Scully said:

So you DO believe it to be acceptable to hold another referendum to overturn the vote of the first. At last; thankyou for your honesty. I think you and I have very different views as to what constitutes democracy and dictatorship however. 

Your answers are almost verbatim remainer rhetoric.....the people have already voted ( despite what some may claim ) and they voted to leave; it is now up to politicians to enact the will of the people, not to interpret the result to suit. 

So you would prefer a politician to tell the people they cannot vote on a subject? I prefer the power to be with the people rather than with the politicians. 

As you say it is up to the politicians to enact the will of the people but what is that apart from leave?If we just leave the EU lots will be unhappy. Leaving everything is the politics of insanity. The politicians need to enact the will of the people. 

[old man]

5 hours ago, ShootingEgg said:

How was it a good move... Labour just like to spend what they don't have so saw it as a quick win and money to spend. Instead of borrowing yet more money. We think we are hard up with cuts now, let labour back in and we will. Be F'd in year to come. And it wont be austerity, it will be poverty... For all

Not for Jeremy Corvid, the politicos as usual will have snouts sunk deep in the troughs.

Some one told me today of an MP claiming over £300.000 expenses, how does that go unchallenged?

[panoma1]

59 minutes ago, oowee said:

Yes. No one has the right to tell the people its once in a lifetime vote we do not want to live in a dictatorship.

A vote is democratic no ifs no buts. If people decide they want another then so be it. I am not asking for one I think we should get on with the one we have but if we can't make our mind up and decide what we want at political level then the people should decide.  

How would we know whether the people wanted another vote? How would we find out? Hold a referendum? Or because remainers say we do?

What triggers asking the people whether they want another vote? A majority vote by the UK public? Or because the remainers say so?

Who decides when and whether we need to ask again? The majority or the minority? Remainers are the minority!

Would the referendum question be "do you want another vote, Yes or no?............then if the public voted "yes".......do then we hold another in/out referendum?

If this time the people voted to remain, would leavers be given a chance to reverse this decision too? With a third referendum? And so on ad infinitum