Brexit - merged threads

[hambone]

3 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

It's my country, and if I can ever get back there with my family past May's exile law, I hope to live there again sometime.

No I'm not (although under the current circumstances it wouldn't be the worst option) . I'm arguing for a grownup approach to what is a very complex process.

Hopefully by the time you return we will have weathered the (possible) storm and be free as a nation from the EU parasites. ? Bet you can't guess which way I voted ? 

[ShootingEgg]

Damn brexit.... Everyone's jumping ship.. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-44910560

And before anyone says it, Scotland aren't independent yet.... 

[Retsdon]

1 minute ago, Rewulf said:

Sounds like another remoaning journo trying to make a name for himself, twisting and misquoting leave arguments.

North stood for the Referendum Party in the 1997 election, in South Derbyshire, having joined the party in 1996.^[7] In the 2004 European elections North was UKIP's number one candidate on the party list for the Yorkshire region,...He began collaborating with journalist Christopher Booker in the early 1990s, co-publishing on a range of issues, including the European Union. Their works advance a popular though academically disputed historiography of the UK's membership of the European Union. Their first book, The Mad Officials: How The Bureaucrats Are Strangling Britain (1994) focused on EU regulation in the UK, and was followed by The Castle of Lies: Why Britain Must get Out of Europe (1996) and The Great Deception: Can the European Union Survive? (2005). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_A._E._North

Hardly 'just another reomoaning journo'. Rather someone who's been a committed opponent of the EU for more than 20 years.

Three points.

1) Whatever North's shortcomings - and he has plenty - he really knows his stuff about the EU and how the UK is tied in with it. It's been his hobbyhorse for decades and he's worth listening to.

2) With all due respect, I shouldn't have had to post the link in this post. All it would have required was a simple google search. 

3) Shooting the messenger doesn't change the content of the message.

I'm bed-bound - it's late here. Go well.

 

 

[Scully]

1 hour ago, Retsdon said:

Ah, but they do. You just don't want to listen to them. The thing is Gordon, in my heart I'm a Brexit man. I don't like the EU at all - never did. But this blind wishful thinking has to stop. Unless, after wasting 2 whole years,  this stupid government pulls its finger out quick sharp and gets on with getting some kind of workable interim agreement (they don't have time for a proper one) in place before March, the country is headed for an economic train smash the likes of which nobody in our lifetimes has ever seen. Think Greece.

The moral of the Boy That Cried Wolf was that, in the end, the wolf was real.

 You don't know whether there will be a 'train smash' anymore than the next person; this is nothing more than pure scaremongering from someone who has just quoted JRM out of context to suit their agenda!

But I for one don't care; nor am I into 'blind wishful thinking' either. I just don't care. I want us out and that's it. I don't care how, I just want us out. 

[walshie]

No-one knows exactly what will happen. Hype and supposition isn't fact. I don't suppose it can be any worse than being trodden into the ground by the EU bully-boys like we are now.

Surely 2 years of whining about what may or may not happen is enough. It's like there's been no other news for the last 25 months. 

[pinfireman]

It all boils down to.............we voted OUT!  And the wishes of the people should be carried out! The politicians are merely the servants of the people! They are in power because we put them there..............and we can easily remove them!  We voted out, in the full knowledge that we were undertaking a journey into the unknown, but compared with 40 years as a vassal state in the EU, with the bureaucrats ever increasing their stranglehold on us,  with the UK becoming merely  "regions" in a federalist superstate, and with little or no power to change things from within, it,s a journey to look forwards to.!

Edited July 23, 2018 by pinfireman
mis-spelling!

[panoma1]

The problem is no matter how the government/politicians **** things up, there is no accountability! They will still retire on a gold plated pension, or/and keep their snouts in the public money trough in the "Upper House".....so why should they care?........If the "doomsday" scenario happens, it will affect the poorer members of society worst, as the rich and politicians will ensure they are financially protected from the effects! The head of Amazon floated the idea if it goes "pearshaped" of governmental loss of control resulting in civil unrest.........if this happens the government had best "think on" if they don't get their act together quickly, and do **** things up!...........They bear "collective responsibility" and will understandably, be the target of the people's (both remainers and brexiteers) "displeasure"

Edited July 23, 2018 by panoma1

[pinfireman]

9 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

I think the 'negotiations' suffer from two things;

• Barnier regards negotiations as demanding from others and offering/concessing nothing in return - a tactic we have let him operate for far too long
• Our lot don't stick to any demands, but give in every time, and don't seem clear on what they want anyway as they are constantly undermined by various people who should be on their side.

Correct!

9 hours ago, Rewulf said:

The problem with our negotiating team has always been about keeping both the remainers and leavers in the electorate and parliament happy.
This is the flaw in the position, but the problem is, without parliamentary support, it has, and will continue to be , difficult to deliver the clean break we voted for.
The EU are pushing us into a hostile no deal scenario, which I believe has always been their aim, to make us look bad, it hurts our global reputation, and harms us economically, I believe the government know this, and are trying to avoid the trap, but it will inevitably end in acrimony.
Now if the remainers in the electorate and government accept these key observations, and stop thinking the sun shines out of Brussels backside, maybe we can get behind the leaving effort, and stop this jaded dream of calling it all off.

Excellent !

5 hours ago, oowee said:

I don't doubt it.

I am talking about IT graphic artists for 3d modelling that won't come to the UK because of perceptions. We need them to have an 'English' content that comes from cultural exposure. 

With over 2 Million unemployed, train our own!

[pinfireman]

3 hours ago, Rewulf said:

As bad as they think it will be ??
Where are they from , some utopian EU city where there are no 'xenophobes' no violence and beer flows out of fountains ? ?
Or possibly from a place thats far worse than here, because lets face it, despite what you try to convince yourself, 'here' isnt that bad.

If it were so terrible , we wouldnt have 3- 4 million EU citizens here already would we ?
Rather than trying to 'convince' them to come to the land of knuckle dragging racists, Im sure they are quite capable of using their IT skills to research what the UK is really like, possibly by talking to their countrymen who are already here ?

Unless of course , you are trying to convince them to move to Mr Khans London ?
Good luck with that, because thats a different matter entirely, I wouldnt move to London for 3 x what I earn now.

But again, what has this got to do with Brexit, did the UK turn into a nation of racists 2 years ago in your eyes?
Is that what youre trying to convince yourself ?
Do you seriously believe that this country is going to be less welcoming to high quality EU labour ?
Its a leftist media fallacy, designed ,as usual to undermine the process.

First class answer!

[pinfireman]

2 hours ago, Retsdon said:

Well, Jacob Reese-Mogg says that it could take up to 50 years before the country is on the plus side of the ledger after Brexit.

That has to be a worry. His 'The overwhelming opportunity of the Brexit is over the next 50 years' is basically code for 'there is disaster the offing, we're going to suffer massive pain, but don't blame me because I can see in the tea leaves that after I'm dead my grandchildren will move to the sunny uplands of freedom and economic prosperity.'

If it's going to take until most of the current population is dead before we're back to where we are now, what would be the point of jumping out of the boat in the first place? 

But of course, people like Mogg don't really think it will happen because this government is like one of those people you see on fail videos, standing on a ledge threatening to jump  but in reality expecting that if they do responsible people will either grab them before they leap  or else set some kind of cushioning below to stop them smashing themselves to a pulp in the street below. In short, they're relying on the grownups in the EU to save them from the logical consequences of their deliberate act of self harm -the crash-out Brexit.

It's nothing less than a national humiliation.

 

So, no matter what Mogg says, you have a special insight that  realises it is all code? And you are the code-breaker?  What rubbish! Mogg says quite clearly " that the opportunity of the Brexit is SPREAD OUT over 50 years! It does not say it will take 50 years!

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Really Retsdon ?

You are reading a pro EU media organ twist the mans words, and taking it as truth , what did he actually say ?

"he said that we won’t know the “full economic consequences for a very long time” and that “the overwhelming opportunity for Brexit is over the next 50 years”.

How does that translate to " We wont see the benefits of Brexit for 50 years ?" !

Retsdon has been reading the Guardian again.....and, as we all know, their motto is "Never let the truth get in the way of a good story"!

[oowee]

12 minutes ago, pinfireman said:

Correct!

Excellent !

With over 2 Million unemployed, train our own!

The people are from Lodz, They have lots of 3d graphic skills. We would take them from uk but they don't have the skills. 

 

[Rewulf]

7 minutes ago, oowee said:

The people are from Lodz, They have lots of 3d graphic skills. We would take them from uk but they don't have the skills. 

 

Bet they don't take a huge amount of persuasion to come here for 4 or 5 times what they can earn in Poland.

It's not like there are no Poles in the UK is it? from what I've heard there's not many left in Poland ?

[Danger-Mouse]

10 minutes ago, oowee said:

The people are from Lodz, They have lots of 3d graphic skills. We would take them from uk but they don't have the skills. 

 

Train some up. I'm sure you could find individuals willing to learn.

[Gordon R]

Quote

Ah, but they do. You just don't want to listen to them.

Just who are "they" and how do they know how other countries throughout the World will react? Be specific - name each individual that you are citing, otherwise it is just hot air.

[oowee]

Just now, Rewulf said:

Bet they don't take a huge amount of persuasion to come here for 4 or 5 times what they can earn in Poland.

It's not like there are no Poles in the UK is it? from what I've heard there's not many left in Poland ?

They would get 10 times there Polish earnings but it's not Poland we compete with. It's largely Germany and if they have a choice we may well not win based on perceptions.

 

1 minute ago, Danger-Mouse said:

Train some up. I'm sure you could find individuals willing to learn.

They could come from uk but in the last 10 years this has not happened. The uni there trains them with the company's models as part of the course. 

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, oowee said:

They would get 10 times there Polish earnings but it's not Poland we compete with. It's largely Germany and if they have a choice we may well not win based on perception.

There's only so many jobs for those particular skills, Germany may well be geographically or linguisticly better for them, but if the jobs are here, here they will come.

Or..they can stay in Poland if they're uncomfortable around us neaderthals, I don't mind . But surely if a company is serious about its future workforce, some kind of apprenticeship scheme in the locality or nationally would be a good Idea ?

[Danger-Mouse]

5 minutes ago, oowee said:

 

 

They could come from uk but in the last 10 years this has not happened. The uni there trains them with the company's models as part of the course. 

So what is the issue? There must be some reason they're not taking the jobs you offer.

[oowee]

23 minutes ago, Danger-Mouse said:

So what is the issue? There must be some reason they're not taking the jobs you offer.

They don't have the skills (from uk) even though they both have degrees.  The UK teaches an academic programme. Lodz teaches a vocation based course. The Lodz people often see Germany as more welcoming to foreigners.

It needs to happeen but trying to get a UK uni to vary course content is probably harder than leaving the EU :-). 

Edited July 23, 2018 by oowee

[Vince Green]

35 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Bet they don't take a huge amount of persuasion to come here for 4 or 5 times what they can earn in Poland.

It's not like there are no Poles in the UK is it? from what I've heard there's not many left in Poland ?

There are a lot of Eastern Europeans still coming because they want to be here on the day we leave. Their interpretation, from assurances that have been given by this Govt, is that if they are here on that day they will be granted indefinite residency rights. I actually don't believe that is correct, it may apply to those who are working on the cards in formal employment but that is a small percentage. Most are cash in hand.

[armsid]

as many PW members have said the UK should have prepared to train people for the skills we need not now these skills should have continued since the ,70,s not like coventry who lost engineering on a huge scale and closed the colleges down and as there were no engineering on a large scale left in coventry the schools did not have vocational courses in their corriculum add to this the accountants cry we can import the labour ready trained saving money.All companies here have not invested much in training home grown skills .G go to france they actively employ their own workers and train them as they have the foresight to see home grown is best. sorry for going off course i voted to leave and expect my wishes and all who voted out to have the vote carried out by this gov. If the skills oowee had mentioned are in short supply why have the firms concerned not  trained people to do these jobs?

[oowee]

Most firms are small and don't have the resources or are unable to take the risk of long term training. Large firms can buy in. The government (of all pursuasions) should have a long term skills strategy, but it doesn't. 

I did a kaizan project with Japanese lean manufacturing experts coming to the UK to teach companies process skills. They stayed for two years teaching uk guys. When they left, instead of the UK guys staying in manufacturing as intended, they went to work for accountancy firms to earn more. Their employers just did not value engineering highly enough. 

A strong education base would make brexit a breeze. 

[Gordon R]

 

Quote

When they left, instead of the UK guys staying in manufacturing as intended, they went to work for accountancy firms to earn more. Their employers just did not value engineering highly enough. 

So if we stay in the EU, these UK guys will leave their accountancy jobs and go back to engineering? If they wouldn't, just what is your point?

[oowee]

21 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

 

So if we stay in the EU, these UK guys will leave their accountancy jobs and go back to engineering? If they wouldn't, just what is your point?

My point is, in or out a highly skilled workforce will be key to future growth. Education is the only way for the West to compete with low labour rate economies. The UK has a poor track record in education. 

[Gordon R]

We have been in the EU for decades, so staying in hasn't really helped at all. Better out of it and a fresh start.

[Mice!]

3 hours ago, oowee said:

Most firms are small and don't have the resources or are unable to take the risk of long term training. Large firms can buy in. The government (of all pursuasions) should have a long term skills strategy, but it doesn't. 

I did a kaizan project with Japanese lean manufacturing experts coming to the UK to teach companies process skills. They stayed for two years teaching uk guys. When they left, instead of the UK guys staying in manufacturing as intended, they went to work for accountancy firms to earn more. Their employers just did not value engineering highly enough. 

A strong education base would make brexit a breeze. 

If the firms are small then there is no need for a uni to Tailor a degree to suit a limited number of candidates, i work in manufacturing, currently aerospace and over the years plenty of firms have folded and the work has gone abroad.

If these firms need a specific skill then as others have said its an apprenticeship that's needed, but by the sounds of it they want ready made programmers without any investment in training. This is obviously what the poles are targeting, its the same with engineering and cnc they know there is a skills shortage in this country and jobs are waiting.

we need to train up our own youngsters as we once did for the industrial needs.