Brexit - merged threads

[sportsbob]

You might find this amusing,  if you have no volume click on the speaker icon at the bottom right of the video.

 

Edited March 22, 2019 by sportsbob

[Raja Clavata]

17 minutes ago, sportsbob said:

You might find this amusing,  if you have no volume click on the speaker icon at the bottom right of the video.

 

cringetastic

[NoBodyImportant]

38 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

If the media are actually saying that, they are lying. Did Donald get elected due to a misunderstanding?

They are saying that most Britain’s want to stay in  the EU.  But I don’t believe fake news.  

[hedge]

I don't know what/who to believe any more.Social media and fake news is overwhelming.

Based on the fact that 2m+ people have voted to revoke Article 50, that's about 14m less than voted to stay in the first place and 15m less than those who voted to exit.

I guess we need a counter petition by Brexit supporters to have equal bragging rights?

It's a mess. No doubt about it. 

Theresa May is effectively blackmailing Parliament to accept MV3 as she's basically run the clock down.

I'm really disillusioned with `democracy` and politics in general.

I do totally agree with the sentiment that we hold elections every 4/5 years and can't change our mind half way through and ask for another vote. We used to vote based on a Manifesto, a list of committments that the party would enact when in power. They rarely delivered and you had to suck it up until the next election. Now, they just slag each other off.

[12gauge82]

7 minutes ago, NoBodyImportant said:

They are saying that most Britain’s want to stay in  the EU.  But I don’t believe fake news.  

Yeah it's complete garbage, we had a vote on it and it was the largest vote the UK has ever had with the highest turnout by far, leave won with a bigger majority than many elections are won by, so it couldn't be clearer, the UK population wants out. 

[hedge]

1 minute ago, 12gauge82 said:

Yeah it's complete garbage, we had a vote on it and it was the largest vote the UK has ever had with the highest turnout by far, leave won with a bigger majority than many elections are won by, so it couldn't be clearer, the UK population wants out. 

Don't forget that everyone who voted to leave was misinformed and has subsequently changed their mind. Whereas those who voted to remain were completely sane and in receipt of all of the facts.

Allegedly.

 

 

[Raja Clavata]

10 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Are they? 

In that case why don't we ignore them then? Cancel brexit and move on yes? 

Or do you mean they are no where near that many people in favour of leave now? 

Again, if that's the case, why didn't they just force another referendum through, we vote remain, forget the first one, and move on? 

The polls tell us remain has more supporters now, the polls wouldn't lie now would they? 

So the support is there to put this sorry tale behind us, stay in the EU, and move on. 

Or is it? 

3 years is a long time in terms of a democratic political process so yes, 60% of the maximum period between General Elections as you know.

I don't think polls lie strictly speaking but they can be misguiding and skewed based on who is sponsoring them, yes of course.

I think the rest of your questions are rhetorical and as we both know nobody really knows.

I come back to the point that every single one of us has been played, except perhaps those who didn't vote at all. No deal was never going to happen, it was a false promise and the withdrawal agreement is a worse deal than we currently have representing a compromise that only pleases people who see their political future predicated on delivering some kind of Brexit.

There will always be the die-hard ~one third Brexiteers and die-hard ~one third Remainers but the other third, who were the ones that influence the democratic process increasingly seem fed up with the whole thing and wanting to see this madness to end.

Would it really be a tragic miscarriage of democratic justice to call an end to the current nonsense and restart the process again applying the lessons learnt from this shambles - that increasing seems to be where that middle ground third seem to be gravitating towards...?

[walshie]

3 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Would it really be a tragic miscarriage of democratic justice to call an end to the current nonsense and restart the process again applying the lessons learnt from this shambles - that increasing seems to be where that middle ground third seem to be gravitating towards...?

Yes. Yes it would. It would kill democracy stone dead. The same democracy these politicians rely on to have their cushy jobs. Democracy is absolute. You can't pick and choose when to accept it and when to reject it.

It's not the voters' fault that the government has taken nearly 3 years. If that was an argument then every vote should take that long to implement to give people a chance to change their mind. Why not leave it 50 years so almost everyone who voted leave is dead?

[Rewulf]

2 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

3 years is a long time in terms of a democratic political process

3 years is a long time, you have to ask yourself why ?
Why drag it on so long, the vote was clear, but thats the way the EU works, wear them down , delay and then threaten.
You can also twist the rules, because Brussels is sovereign is it not ? 'You cannot have an extension without the unanimous approval of all 27 EU nations' OK have a 2 week extension anyway, no one will notice this little rule break'

 

7 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Would it really be a tragic miscarriage of democratic justice to call an end to the current nonsense and restart the process again applying the lessons learnt from this shambles - that increasing seems to be where that middle ground third seem to be gravitating towards...?

You tell me, next time we have a GE , say labour win with 350 seats, delay them taking power for 3 years, and then tell the people to vote again ?

[Raja Clavata]

The "Disney" petition has eclipsed 2.75M signatures now and looks set to be the largest in history since these polls have been created.

Ironically it's currently second only to a petition created by a Brexiteer prior to the referendum demanding a second vote in the event that Remain won with a majority of less than 60% and 75% turn-out. After the referendum result this petition was championed by "traitor" Remainers hell bent on undermining the democratic process .

Seems obvious to me that the petition would have served a much better purpose if it had called for reforms to the way the referendum was structured.

[Scully]

9 hours ago, oowee said:

Business owners are as you say on both sides, although I suspect the majority don't know and of those that do the larger ones have already offset where they can. Commentators would include industry bodies that take a sounding board of members, CBI, BCC, BDI (german), London Stock Exchange, SMMT, NFU Cymru, NFU Scotland, UFU, UK Steel,  FSB, The Chancellor, Governor of BoE, overwhelming Majority of MP's, the governments departments of Trade, Health .  

And they outnumber 'by far' al those commentators with opposing views do they? 

[NoBodyImportant]

I still don’t understand why the EU has to agree with you guys leaving.  

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, Rewulf said:

3 years is a long time, you have to ask yourself why ?
Why drag it on so long, the vote was clear, but thats the way the EU works, wear them down , delay and then threaten.
You can also twist the rules, because Brussels is sovereign is it not ? 'You cannot have an extension without the unanimous approval of all 27 EU nations' OK have a 2 week extension anyway, no one will notice this little rule break'

 

You tell me, next time we have a GE , say labour win with 350 seats, delay them taking power for 3 years, and then tell the people to vote again ?

That's one of the fundamental problems, the structure of the referendum was wrong, it wasn't well thought out as the people who called it didn't envisage leave stood any chance of winning. So we have all suffered as a consequence and it is leading us to use GE outcome scenarios as the basis for argument around Brexit.

It's a mess. If we leave now there is a scenario where we have a fresh vote to return and if that carried we'd be going back under much less favourable terms than we have now, it would be madness?

[walshie]

Why is anyone taking notice of this petition? The referendum was only open to registered voters. Anyone can sign a petition and it looks like they have. Have a look at the data and see where some of these votes are supposedly coming from - some countries i have never even heard of. Add into that mix the amount of people who have signed multiple times just by registering a throwaway email address and it means nothing. Perhaps the remainers should have rallied more support 3 years ago instead of clutching at straws at this late stage.

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, walshie said:

Why is anyone taking notice of this petition? The referendum was only open to registered voters. Anyone can sign a petition and it looks like they have. Have a look at the data and see where some of these votes are supposedly coming from - some countries i have never even heard of. Add into that mix the amount of people who have signed multiple times just by registering a throwaway email address and it means nothing. Perhaps the remainers should have rallied more support 3 years ago instead of clutching at straws at this late stage.

Countries? The map I've seen only shows UK constituencies...

Err, you seem to be taking notice of it and so will Parliament. Gotta love good old democracy.

[Docleo]

32 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

The "Disney" petition has eclipsed 2.75M signatures now and looks set to be the largest in history since these polls have been created.

Ironically it's currently second only to a petition created by a Brexiteer prior to the referendum demanding a second vote in the event that Remain won with a majority of less than 60% and 75% turn-out. After the referendum result this petition was championed by "traitor" Remainers hell bent on undermining the democratic process .

Seems obvious to me that the petition would have served a much better purpose if it had called for reforms to the way the referendum was structured.

Spot on! Thanks for posting.

[Scully]

12 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

Absolute twaddle! It's precisely what democracy is all about, people are allowed to change their minds and people who do not agree with your opinion are allowed to express their views and challenge. This 17.4 million votes from nearly three years ago is looking increasingly irrelevant and suggestions of anti democracy are frankly laughable.

Talk about absolute twaddle! The vote was democratically held , and just like a democratically held election the result has to stand. People change their minds about election results and express their views and opinions also, but what they don't do ( and rightly so ) is attempt to overturn that democratically arrived at result. 

Let's have another referendum then; and if the vote is remain, do we honour that result ( after all, it's the result the establishment expected to get ) but it has to be asked, why on earth should it be honoured anymore than the initial result? It would be supremely arrogant to suggest it should be honoured because it is what people really wanted in the first place, but then the arrogance of some of those who oppose the result is staggering at times. 

Or do we then have 'best out of three'? What if the result was leave; would remainers then accept THAT result, or do we keep on going until all those who lost the original vote get the decision they want? 

I can't prove it of course, but if the original vote had been to stay, I reckon the leavers would have accepted it ( I know I would ); not happily of course, but it would have been accepted. We would no doubt, still have campaigned against the EU, but I genuinely doubt we would have been trying to subvert and overturn the democratic process. We would have been ridiculed and slapped down hard by those who had won. The establishment ridiculed the leave campaign from the very outset; Farage and his sympathisers from the very outset, all those years ago. What really hurts I suspect, is that the 'plebs' won, and it's a hurt they can't accept. The establishment will win; they always do, but hopefully it will come at price they can ill afford. 

[Rewulf]

8 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Gotta love good old democracy.

 

18 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

It's a mess. If we leave now there is a scenario where we have a fresh vote to return and if that carried we'd be going back under much less favourable terms than we have now, it would be madness?

Surely if the terms were unfavourable, we wouldnt actually rejoin ?

The terms of the WA are unfavourable, are we getting a vote on that ?
Are we getting a vote on a delay, whether we want no deal ?
Parliament courted the idea of a peoples vote, until they realised the appetite for having remain as one of the options wasnt popular, so that got dropped.

Labour screamed for a general election 'To let the people have their say' until they found that they would get destroyed in one, so that got dropped.

Yeah , youve got to love British 'democracy' 😂
But this is the problem, its not British, this is EU style democracy, you can have a vote, but only when we know youre going to vote for what outcome WE want.

 

[panoma1]

9 hours ago, NoBodyImportant said:

So why does the EU need to except the fact you guys are leaving? 

According to the media in the US very few people wanted to leave the EU and the vote to leave was a misunderstanding.  

Over 17 million U.K. Citizens voted to leave the EU, in the biggest turnout to vote the U.K. has seen! That constitutes a majority of the whole population of the UK, who took the opportunity and turned out to vote, voted to Leave the EU!....... purely as an exercise, if you were to separate areas/regions out of the whole country of the United Kingdom only Scotland, NI, Gibraltar and London voted, not unanimously but by a majority to remain.......which means apart from the foregoing, the majority of the rest of UK, voted overwhelmingly.........to leave the EU!

How could that be a "misunderstanding"?

 

[walshie]

16 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Countries? The map I've seen only shows UK constituencies...

Err, you seem to be taking notice of it and so will Parliament. Gotta love good old democracy.

Oh well, if the map you've seen only shows UK constituencies, I must be making it up and you must be correct. 

Or, possibly you didn't look properly and are answering based on assumption, rather than facts. Go to the bottom of the petition and click the link that says "Get petition data" and you will see votes from all sorts of places. 

Not everything you disagree with is twaddle, nor is everyone stupid.

[oowee]

50 minutes ago, Scully said:

Talk about absolute twaddle! The vote was democratically held , and just like a democratically held election the result has to stand. People change their minds about election results and express their views and opinions also, but what they don't do ( and rightly so ) is attempt to overturn that democratically arrived at result. 

Let's have another referendum then; and if the vote is remain, do we honour that result ( after all, it's the result the establishment expected to get ) but it has to be asked, why on earth should it be honoured anymore than the initial result? It would be supremely arrogant to suggest it should be honoured because it is what people really wanted in the first place, but then the arrogance of some of those who oppose the result is staggering at times. 

Or do we then have 'best out of three'? What if the result was leave; would remainers then accept THAT result, or do we keep on going until all those who lost the original vote get the decision they want? 

I can't prove it of course, but if the original vote had been to stay, I reckon the leavers would have accepted it ( I know I would ); not happily of course, but it would have been accepted. We would no doubt, still have campaigned against the EU, but I genuinely doubt we would have been trying to subvert and overturn the democratic process. We would have been ridiculed and slapped down hard by those who had won. The establishment ridiculed the leave campaign from the very outset; Farage and his sympathisers from the very outset, all those years ago. What really hurts I suspect, is that the 'plebs' won, and it's a hurt they can't accept. The establishment will win; they always do, but hopefully it will come at price they can ill afford. 

If the vote had been to stay there is no reason why at anytime after another vote to leave could not be held. Just like the Scot ref. It's still democracy and we are all the better for it. The debate and discussion might be to no end but it does act like a lag on process that stops / reduces some political stupidity. In my view we need more consensus politics. 

The fact is that our representative democracy does not deal well with direct democracy. 

Edited March 22, 2019 by oowee

[oowee]

43 minutes ago, walshie said:

Oh well, if the map you've seen only shows UK constituencies, I must be making it up and you must be correct. 

Or, possibly you didn't look properly and are answering based on assumption, rather than facts. Go to the bottom of the petition and click the link that says "Get petition data" and you will see votes from all sorts of places. 

Not everything you disagree with is twaddle, nor is everyone stupid.

Thanks for that I was not aware of the option. 

Do you reckon its driven by some Russian IT system? Hopefully the system has some way of weeding the foreign intervention out otherwise it's a great way for others to subvert what goes on. 

[Rewulf]

7 minutes ago, oowee said:

The fact is that our representative democracy does not deal well with direct democracy.

You can say that again !

For once in a generation, we are offered a chance to have a direct democratic vote on the direction of the country,  without the meddling of our representatives .

But the representatives have kidnapped the vote, and spent 3 years telling us it wasnt really what they had in mind, and they need to take over and 'rectify the mistake'

Illusion of democracy ? Its not even that.

[NoBodyImportant]

14 minutes ago, oowee said:

Thanks for that I was not aware of the option. 

Do you reckon its driven by some Russian IT system? Hopefully the system has some way of weeding the foreign intervention out otherwise it's a great way for others to subvert what goes on. 

I find it amusing that they are blaming Russia for the outcome of your vote.  

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, NoBodyImportant said:

I still don’t understand why the EU has to agree with you guys leaving.  

Its not so much the EU need to agree to us leaving (although we had to give them a 2 year notice period), it's that most of our own politicians will not allow us to walk away from the EU without a deal, they are effectively traitors, prepared to sign away the UK as a free and self governing country in return for lucrative future jobs for themselves I imagine.