Brexit - merged threads

[Yellow Bear]

I see  Hammond is warning the "new Prime Minister" not to ignore the will of MPs  _  One would ask "What about MPs ignoring the will of their constituents"  

[ditchman]

21 minutes ago, Yellow Bear said:

I see  Hammond is warning the "new Prime Minister" not to ignore the will of MPs  _  One would ask "What about MPs ignoring the will of their constituents"  

Hhahahahha............since whenever has that bothered them....

[Mice!]

Just showing results on northwest news, i think showed the Brexit party won easily so start banging the drums

[Mice!]

just realised I'm a day behind 😣 bank holiday has messed me up 😁

nice to see that people have voted Brexit party, even if it is a protest vote it shows people want Brexit delivered.

Just showed results for Lancaster BP 30% Green 20%, greens are wanting to stay in 

[Raja Clavata]

If the Tory leadership contest comes down to a choice between Johnson and Raab, I think it only fair that they settle with a good old fashioned fist fight 🙂

 

[Walker570]

3 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

If the Tory leadership contest comes down to a choice between Johnson and Raab, I think it only fair that they settle with a good old fashioned fist fight 🙂

 

Pistols at dawn

[Gordon R]

If it comes down to a choice between Corbyn and whoever leads the Tories, I agree that it should be settled by a fist fight - only one winner, even if the Tory is female.

[ditchman]

24 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

If it comes down to a choice between Corbyn and whoever leads the Tories, I agree that it should be settled by a fist fight - only one winner, even if the Tory is female.

i wouldnt want a fist fight with Penny Mordant............that is a lot of female there...i would have to go into training with fat sarah  at jack the grippers training camp for a month ...before i tackled her on a dark night outside number 10

[old man]

9 hours ago, Walker570 said:

Pistols at dawn

Tut, tut, handbags maybe?

[krugerandsmith]

19 hours ago, ditchman said:

Hhahahahha............since whenever has that bothered them....

Quite right I have to agree.

 

[Raja Clavata]

Either way my money would be on Raab, he's a bit handy apparently (3rd Dan in Karate or something like that)...

[Raja Clavata]

@Newbie to this you wrote "I'm not ok with a democratic decision being overturned."

And this is my primary confliction with the whole sherbang because neither am I but not to the point that I can allow all the other madness to ensure in order to uphold this. Comes down to which is the lesser of the evils. I agree it's a problem though, never suggested otherwise.

[mick miller]

Esther McVey for me. I like the attitude and life experience outside of the 'bubble', plus she's a scouser, which for northern voters may appear more human than the usual Oxbridge and Eaton patrician accents.

[Newbie to this]

Just now, Raja Clavata said:

@Newbie to this you wrote "I'm not ok with a democratic decision being overturned."

And this is my primary confliction with the whole sherbang because neither am I but not to the point that I can allow all the other madness to ensure in order to uphold this. Comes down to which is the lesser of the evils. I agree it's a problem though, never suggested otherwise.

So you agree that a second vote would be pretty undemocratic.

What's your take on what Steve Baker claimed the other day, that we was offered an FTA deal and May turned it down for closer alignment, do you not think that with the correct negotiations it would be re-offered? Does it not prove the deal was there to be done?

[Raja Clavata]

17 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

So you agree that a second vote would be pretty undemocratic.

What's your take on what Steve Baker claimed the other day, that we was offered an FTA deal and May turned it down for closer alignment, do you not think that with the correct negotiations it would be re-offered? Does it not prove the deal was there to be done?

Yes, of course I do. With the previous caveats. If there is to be a second vote then it needs to be structured in a way that, either way, it's definitive in it's outcome.

I've not looked into the Baker claim on the FTA deal but will have a read.

If the Conservatives select a strong leader then it's possible i think that the EU would re-engage but I'm not sure how any kind of decent deal could be done in three months. And it's probably too late already to hold a second vote in time for 30th October.

The need for a strong leader reinforces my belief that a male candidate is required, not being sexist but i'm sure the EU felt that could take more liberties with a woman than a man. I do not consider Johnson a strong leader.

[mick miller]

26 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

So you agree that a second vote would be pretty undemocratic.

What's your take on what Steve Baker claimed the other day, that we was offered an FTA deal and May turned it down for closer alignment, do you not think that with the correct negotiations it would be re-offered? Does it not prove the deal was there to be done?

FTA would do me, no deal is, to my mind the worst option (not catastrophic as some imagine though) - but, it (no deal) has to be left on the table.

[Newbie to this]

24 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Yes, of course I do.

So now we agree it's undemocratic, surely anyone calling for one is an anti-democrat! willing to run rough shot over my democracy.

Some of the losers of the vote, are and have always been the problem, by not accepting the result of a democratic vote. Quite simply these people are anti-democratic and are a lot more dangerous than us leaving the EU, on WTO or with a negotiated deal.

I believe in Democracy! Why do others only believe in Democracy when it goes their way!

 

Edited May 28, 2019 by Newbie to this

[Rewulf]

59 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Comes down to which is the lesser of the evils.

You could look at this in a number of ways.
A WTO Brexit with possible short term strife or..
A Corbyn government with possible economic catastrophe...
A labour/lib dem or greens coalition with similar or worse..

Or the ultimate nightmare (for you) A BP/con coalition , Farage as deputy PM , or even Farage as PM and Boris as dep PM ?!
Tommy as foreign sec (Im joking)

How does that sound ?
Whichever way you want to see it , things arent going to be the same any more, Pandoras box is opened , the cat is out of the bag, and the horse has bolted.
Political naivety amongst the plebs is no more.

[Raja Clavata]

13 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

So now we agree it's undemocratic, surely anyone calling for one is an anti-democrat! willing to run rough shot over my democracy.

Some of the losers of the vote, are and have always been the problem, by not accepting the result of a democratic vote. Quite simply these people are anti-democratic and are a lot more dangerous than us leaving the EU, on WTO or with a negotiated deal.

I believe in Democracy! Why do others only believe in Democracy when it goes their way!

 

OK we can stop this discussion here. I added caveats but you've ignored them and jumped straight to a total subversion of democracy. Not going back down that road.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

An end?

[Newbie to this]

11 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

OK we can stop this discussion here. I added caveats but you've ignored them and jumped straight to a total subversion of democracy. Not going back down that road.

We can end it here, but it doesn't change the fact that if there was a second vote and remain came out on top then my democracy would be gone! It doesn't matter what caveats anyone adds.

Why do people only belive in democracy when the vote goes in their favour!

[Raja Clavata]

9 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

You could look at this in a number of ways.
A WTO Brexit with possible short term strife or..

Or a WTO Brexit that trumps all over catastrophic economic impact compared to the other scenarios - not saying it's nailed on but who knows and why isn't it even being mentioned?
A Corbyn government with possible economic catastrophe...
A labour/lib dem or greens coalition with similar or worse..

I'd be more concerned about where we come out of either of these two scenarios with respects to our sporting past times - economic impact of a government can be largely recovered.

I'd also venture that it could be that maintaining a hardline do or die, no compromise hard Brexit position increases the probability of the above two scenarios

Or the ultimate nightmare (for you) A BP/con coalition , Farage as deputy PM , or even Farage as PM and Boris as dep PM ?!
Tommy as foreign sec (Im joking)

Not my ideal scenario, long way to go with Boris becoming Cons leader and even further for Farage to become part of a governing coalition, not saying it can't or won't happen but not sweating on it just yet.

How does that sound ?
Whichever way you want to see it , things arent going to be the same any more, Pandoras box is opened , the cat is out of the bag, and the horse has bolted.

And it's welcomed by the majority of us I believe.
Political naivety amongst the plebs is no more.

That remains to be seen. Under a disastrous hard Brexit you could soon see us plebs demanding to rejoin the club (on worse terms than we currently have). 

 

[JohnfromUK]

13 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

You could look at this in a number of ways.
A WTO Brexit with possible short term strife or..
A Corbyn government with possible economic catastrophe...
A labour/lib dem or greens coalition with similar or worse..

Or the ultimate nightmare (for you) A BP/con coalition , Farage as deputy PM , or even Farage as PM and Boris as dep PM ?!

"A WTO Brexit with possible short term strife or."  This is OK - and in fact only 'short term' because some sort of 'trade agreement' post May's deal was always on the agenda.  Remember - May's deal was only intended to be in place until December 2020 whilst trade agreements were negotiated.  It was the EU that flatly refused to negotiate any long term trade deals until the short term deal (plus £39 billion of course) was in place.

"A Corbyn government with possible economic catastrophe..." Sadly nothing possible about the economic catastrophe - that would be a certainly.  As would higher interest rates, high inflation, higher unemployment, loss of international influence (especially with the USA), probable restrictions to our country/shooting sports

"A labour/lib dem or greens coalition with similar or worse.."  This would have to involve the SNP as well - resulting in a breakup of the UK as we know it.  It might be a little less damaging than a full Corbyn government in other ways.

"Or the ultimate - A BP/con coalition , Farage as deputy PM , or even Farage as PM and Boris as dep PM ?"  Sadly - this won't happen; In my view both Johnson and Farage are far to conceited and self important for this to work.  Both are good speakers, charismatic, and would do well in an election.  Both are basically hugely personally ambitious and neither is a 'team player'.  What might happen is an electoral pact of some sort to get Brexit past the post, but I think after that it would fall apart.  We don't know what Farage's plans are for all his (assuming it happens) MP's after Brexit takes place (assuming that does).  The broad assumption is that they will be 'right of centre', but not much else is known.

[Raja Clavata]

3 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

We can end it here, but it doesn't change the fact that if there was a second vote and remain came out on top then my democracy would be gone! It doesn't matter what caveats anyone adds.

So you're fundamentally opposed to a second referendum or only opposed if the outcome goes against your desire?

Why do people only belive in democracy when the vote goes in their favour!

Careful how you answer the above question 😉

I agree that a second vote asking exactly the same question would be totally undemocratic (and pointless). On one hand I hear that the will of the people is still to leave but the strength of that conviction is not apparent because, I suspect, truth be known - the leave vote is fragmented and the current ambiguity of what leave actually means is the only way to sneak it across the line.

8 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

"A WTO Brexit with possible short term strife or."  This is OK - and in fact only 'short term' because some sort of 'trade agreement' post May's deal was always on the agenda.  Remember - May's deal was only intended to be in place until December 2020 whilst trade agreements were negotiated.  It was the EU that flatly refused to negotiate any long term trade deals until the short term deal (plus £39 billion of course) was in place.

"A Corbyn government with possible economic catastrophe..." Sadly nothing possible about the economic catastrophe - that would be a certainly.  As would higher interest rates, high inflation, higher unemployment, loss of international influence (especially with the USA), probable restrictions to our country/shooting sports

"A labour/lib dem or greens coalition with similar or worse.."  This would have to involve the SNP as well - resulting in a breakup of the UK as we know it.  It might be a little less damaging than a full Corbyn government in other ways.

"Or the ultimate - A BP/con coalition , Farage as deputy PM , or even Farage as PM and Boris as dep PM ?"  Sadly - this won't happen; In my view both Johnson and Farage are far to conceited and self important for this to work.  Both are good speakers, charismatic, and would do well in an election.  Both are basically hugely personally ambitious and neither is a 'team player'.  What might happen is an electoral pact of some sort to get Brexit past the post, but I think after that it would fall apart.  We don't know what Farage's plans are for all his (assuming it happens) MP's after Brexit takes place (assuming that does).  The broad assumption is that they will be 'right of centre', but not much else is known.

Good balanced views there.

[Rewulf]

10 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Not my ideal scenario, long way to go with Boris becoming Cons leader and even further for Farage to become part of a governing coalition, not saying it can't or won't happen but not sweating on it just yet.

But not completely out of the question now is it ?
If Id said the same thing 6 months ago, you would have LOLed your self silly !
Things are changing , make no mistake.

 

13 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

That remains to be seen. Under a disastrous hard Brexit you could soon see us plebs demanding to rejoin the club (on worse terms than we currently have). 

Of course they would, dont doubt that for a moment.
But those worse terms are coming anyway if we remain, the euro , the army , closer political and financial  integration are all coming as per the Lisbon treaty demands.

All the EU has to do is relax those demands, let nations be nations, have the single market, have free trade, but let Europe keep its laws and identity with its individual nations.
Remove all those parts that cause so much il feeling towards it , and there would nt be any coherent Eurosceptic movement.

But it cant do it, because it essentially doesnt have those plebs as its first concern.

Its self preservation is its first aim, and its prepared to sacrifice a great deal to do it .

10 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I agree that a second vote asking exactly the same question would be totally undemocratic (and pointless). On one hand I hear that the will of the people is still to leave but the strength of that conviction is not apparent because, I suspect, truth be known - the leave vote is fragmented and the current ambiguity of what leave actually means is the only way to sneak it across the line.

Rather than sneaking remain over the line by deliberately splitting the leave vote for this perceived ambiguity ?