The Next General Election.

[Raja Clavata]

11 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Well he's your friend, you choose to mix with such people.

He is a very dear friend and I love him like a brother but I don’t see how that’s relevant here.

8 minutes ago, oowee said:

And at the same time claim R&D grants for international visits, attended by the rest of the family members. Look at the vat avoidance (giving and receiving). Even Greece has found a way to crack down on this by insisting on electronic payments. 

Tax high earners by all means but do not allow self employed spongers or benefit scroungers to milk the system. I suspect that tax evasion / avoidance by the self employed is worth the total cost of the benefit system several times over.  The focus should be on the self employed end of the telescope. 

 

The irony here of course is that Corbyn is being described as a hypocrite (no real problem with that) whilst some people are attacking benefit cheats and at the same time defending tax evaders. You couldn’t really make it up, could you...?

[Gordon R]

Quote

 but there are many thousands sponging off their neighbours by not paying their fair share of tax. 

I assume you personally know these many thousands and have already reported them to HMRC. If you don't - it's back to a "a man I met in a pub told me".

I note a poster saying that Boris is a bare faced liar, whilst Corbyn is merely a hypocrite. In Corbyn's case the poster missed off traitor, friend of terrorists, friend of spies, nepotistic idiot.

[islandgun]

The fact is that without the self employed starting businesses there wouldn't be many jobs

[JohnfromUK]

3 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

The irony here of course is that Corbyn is being described as a hypocrite (no real problem with that) whilst some people are attacking benefit cheats and at the same time defending tax evaders. You couldn’t really make it up, could you...?

I am not defending anyone who breaks the law - whether it be tax law or benefits law.

I call people hypocrites when they call for something to be abolished (such as private education) but use it themselves for their own kids (Abbott).  Call for inherited wealth to be disallowed, but use aggressive tax avoidance to allow wealth to be handed down to their own children (Benn).

Personally I would not abolish private education, and would like to see a reduction in tax on inheritance to encourage people to allow wealth to build over the generations.  By the way - I have no children!

My take is simply that:

• The law needs to be enforced where it is being broken/ignored (benefit cheats and tax evasion)
• The law needs to be changed then enforced where it is currently allowing what people think should not be allowed (on benefits claims and tax avoidance)

Overall the tax and benefits systems should be simple and then they could be much more easily policed.

[oowee]

4 minutes ago, islandgun said:

The fact is that without the self employed starting businesses there wouldn't be many jobs

So they they can be forgiven for being tax cheats and scroungers free loading on the rest of society?  I think not. 

2 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

 

My take is simply that:

• The law needs to be enforced where it is being broken/ignored (benefit cheats and tax evasion)
• The law needs to be changed then enforced where it is currently allowing what people think should not be allowed (on benefits claims and tax avoidance)

Overall the tax and benefits systems should be simple and then they could be much more easily policed.

And all of that starts with a focus of attention on the problem in the first place exactly what Corbyn is proposing. 

Over the last 8 years the focus has been solely on the benefits system through the work of IDS. When a proposal to change allowances for the self employed was briefly made this was quickly scrapped by the Tories. The focus is all wrong. Start with the big scroungers, spongers and cheats then look at the smaller end of the problem. 

To me its indefensible.

[henry d]

39 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

As an example one of the friends in our circle who is self employed always takes the bill after meals to offset against his business after paying cash for his share. 

Sometimes there are upwards of a dozen of us which effectively means he’s dining for free.

Regarding the lack of holidays, he is affectionately named Judith (Chalmers) and plenty of his jaunts home and abroad manage to go through his company books.

This is just one example.

Got one like that in my family. £20/30K a month in the oil and gas industry abroad, tax-exile, self-employed, pockets full of receipts etc

He hopes to retire sometime soon and come back home and I'm sure he will take any benefits that the UK provide for him and his family. Minimum taxation maximum benefits.

[Rewulf]

33 minutes ago, oowee said:

Tax high earners by all means but do not allow self employed spongers or benefit scroungers to milk the system. I suspect that tax evasion / avoidance by the self employed is worth the total cost of the benefit system several times over.  The focus should be on the self employed end of the telescope

So the un estimated loss to the exchequer, might be worth more than the total benefits bill, by a factor of x2, 3, really??

Do you know what the benefits bill is? How many claim while working via tax credits? 

Are you seriously saying that, say, a couple of million self employed people, who dont pay the income tax they should, cost the exchequer many times more than the total benefits bill!? 

Do the math. 

1 minute ago, henry d said:

Got one like that in my family. £20/30K a month in the oil and gas industry abroad, tax-exile, self-employed, pockets full of receipts etc

He hopes to retire sometime soon and come back home and I'm sure he will take any benefits that the UK provide for him and his family. Minimum taxation maximum benefits.

He's breaking no laws, and this is in a completely different context. 

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, oowee said:

Over the last 8 years the focus has been solely on the benefits system through the work of IDS. When a proposal to change allowances for the self employed was briefly made this was quickly scrapped by the Tories.

Not so at all.  The Inland Revenue are regularly telling us how much better they are at catching tax dodgers and there have been a number of high profile cases (some being footballers).  There have also been numerous and various taxation changes aimed at tweaking the system to be 'fairer', but these are so complex that many (including me) don't understand them.

 

5 minutes ago, oowee said:

focus of attention on the problem in the first place exactly what Corbyn is proposing.

Every chancellor I can remember has stated that they will clamp down on tax evasion.  Corbyn is simply restating what many people on all sides have said.

7 minutes ago, oowee said:

The focus is all wrong. Start with the big scroungers, spongers and cheats then look at the smaller end of the problem. 

IF the "big scroungers, spongers and cheats" are breaking the law - clamp down on them.  However - IF they are simply using the law and sticking within the rules - you have to change the rules  You cannot prosecute people for staying within the rules - even if you don't like what they are doing.

10 minutes ago, oowee said:

To me its indefensible.

I'm not defending; I'm simply stating facts.  I entirely agree that the rules in many cases need changing - starting with a MASSIVE simplification.  No government will achieve it because the Civil Service cannot and will not do it.  It would (if it was ever done) do away with lost of man hours in the civil service, law and accountancy - and so no one will do it.

[oowee]

7 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

So the un estimated loss to the exchequer, might be worth more than the total benefits bill, by a factor of x2, 3, really??

Do you know what the benefits bill is? How many claim while working via tax credits? 

Are you seriously saying that, say, a couple of million self employed people, who dont pay the income tax they should, cost the exchequer many times more than the total benefits bill!? 

Do the math. 

He's breaking no laws, and this is in a completely different context. 

Ok maybe the in my head rough guess was a bit wide of the mark but  the amount taken by self employed scroungers is still colossal.

A more accurate statement would be to say that the amount taken by benefits  cheats would pale into insignificance when compared to self employed tax cheats. 

 

Working age benefits bill circa £46b number of people self employed circa 5.5m. If each self employed person scrounged just £8.5k then that would cover the bill in total. Factor in cash jobs to avoid VAT which would be a similarly vast sum. 

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, oowee said:

he amount taken by self employed scroungers is still colossal.

So is the benefits bill

[oowee]

The numbers are somewhat a mute point. What matters is the focus of action. 

How much do we spend on working age people?

Over £46 billion goes on family benefits, income support and tax credits. This includes benefits such as Child Benefit and support for people on low income. Around £2.2 billion goes to the unemployed.

ONS data 

 

[Dave-G]

A lot of self employed workers earn such feeble amounts that they have to have an bit of an edge to make ends meet. I never got payed when my cab broke down, sick pay, holiday pay, employers tax contributions etc nor paid time off when I got mugged by five Somalians in my cab nor when the police retained it for forensics. A lot of the work done by the self employed is unpaid bookwork etc. 

[Rewulf]

10 minutes ago, oowee said:

Working age benefits bill circa £46b number of people self employed circa 5.5m. If each self employed person scrounged just £8.5k then that would cover the bill in total. Factor in cash jobs to avoid VAT which would be a similarly vast sum

Are you saying EVERY single self employed person fiddles their income tax, even if they are VAT  registered to the tune of £8.5 k a year?! 

That's ridiculous. 

But I'll indulge you, there's a certain section of society, they should be VAT  registered but likely aren't. 

If they pay ANY income tax, I'll be gobsmacked, yet probably many gross hundred of thousands a year, with NO scrutiny. 

Shall we start with them? 

Ill warn you, they have minority protected status. 

Hint, they live in caravans. 

[SpringDon]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

Agreed but why should high earners subsidise them through PAYE? Look at loans made by company directors to their own companies and paid back at favorable rates. Look at the problem many self employed have getting a mortgage when they have to show a profit before tax to be eligible for a mortgage. 

Salary from £100k to £113k is taxed at 45% and personal allowance reduces £1 for every £1 earned. Look also at loss of pension relief on higher salaries. On Paye you may be signed for pension payments that you have to make and then tax relief is removed. 

Happy to pay fair agreed rates of tax but not for self employed scroungers to milk the system. 

Self employed average earnings are below average employee earnings. Average self employed earnings have fallen since 1998, in the same period those of employees have risen. 

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

I knew they’d be at least one who would cite this. Tax evasion is tax evasion pal. Your comment on PAYE displays a profound ignorance of the facts.

Do we take it from your reply that you are one of those poor souls forced to be self employed?

Tax evasion is and always has been illegal. To suggest that self employment is synonymous with tax evasion displays a profound ignorance. And no, I’m not self employed. Pal.

I always thought you two were amongst the more rational on here, but no, just more demagogues.

 

[Gordon R]

Quote

A more accurate statement would be to say that the amount taken by benefits  cheats would pale into insignificance when compared to self employed tax cheats. 

Hilarious. 😋😂

Never one to let facts cloud the issue. You haven't a clue as to how much tax evasion there is. Please don't tell me you know how much benefits are taken by cheats, as you haven't got an inkling.

[bluesj]

It does seem like a few on here can't see the difference between avoiding paying tax by lawful means and evading tax by illegal means. There are a few extras you can use when on paye and I'm sure that  a lot of us make use of them.

And don't forget mp's can claim expenses for things most self employed can't even claim against tax. 

[oowee]

1 minute ago, bluesj said:

It does seem like a few on here can't see the difference between avoiding paying tax by lawful means and evading tax by illegal means. There are a few extras you can use when on paye and I'm sure that  a lot of us make use of them.

And don't forget mp's can claim expenses for things most self employed can't even claim against tax. 

I can see the difference clear enough just making the point that the tax avoiding measures available to the self employed are not available to those on PAYE. At the same time that we criticise benefits cheats we applaud the self employed cheats (however much of it is legal) when they do not pay their fair share of tax. The focus is always on the benefit cheat rather than the self employed tax cheat. The focus on the self employed cheat (and I would include cash payments for jobs) seems to me the right way forward even though I would agree Corbyn is not the one to see it through. 

[stumfelter]

The good thing is with self employed people they often work cash in hand so they don't pay tax and you don't pay tax, win win in my book and long may they prosper.

[bluesj]

13 minutes ago, oowee said:

I can see the difference clear enough just making the point that the tax avoiding measures available to the self employed are not available to those on PAYE. At the same time that we criticise benefits cheats we applaud the self employed cheats (however much of it is legal) when they do not pay their fair share of tax. The focus is always on the benefit cheat rather than the self employed tax cheat. The focus on the self employed cheat (and I would include cash payments for jobs) seems to me the right way forward even though I would agree Corbyn is not the one to see it through. 

So you are saying that someone who is self employed and uses the tax rules (made by government) to pay less tax are just the same as people that claim benefits that they are not entitled to?  

PS I was self employed for many years and I'm now employed on paye, much better off now! holiday pay, sick pay etc but better than that if there is not much work to do I still get a days pay, I get payed for being on call if I go out or not and there are no costs to me to do my job plus if a customer doesn't pay I still get payed

[oowee]

15 minutes ago, bluesj said:

So you are saying that someone who is self employed and uses the tax rules (made by government) to pay less tax are just the same as people that claim benefits that they are not entitled to?  

PS I was self employed for many years and I'm now employed on paye, much better off now! holiday pay, sick pay etc but better than that if there is not much work to do I still get a days pay, I get payed for being on call if I go out or not and there are no costs to me to do my job plus if a customer doesn't pay I still get payed

Some of the tax cheating may be legal the same as some of the benefit cheating is legal but it does not make it right.

Payment of dividends rather than salaries to be taxed at a lower rate. Giving companies loans and then charging interest at higher than market rates. Having wives and children on the pay roll. I have friends paying tax at around 20%, and still able to get tax relief on pension payments, whilst earning very high six figure sums. Those on big numbers on PAYE maybe taxed upto 100% and and denied pension tax relief. This cannot be right. All legal but all cheating the system and yes just as immoral as those taking benefits that they do not deserve. Look at the big money cheats first. 

[Vince Green]

1 hour ago, Gordon R said:

I assume you personally know these many thousands and have already reported them to HMRC. If you don't - it's back to a "a man I met in a pub told me".

I note a poster saying that Boris is a bare faced liar, whilst Corbyn is merely a hypocrite. In Corbyn's case the poster missed off traitor, friend of terrorists, friend of spies, nepotistic idiot.

I have reported several people to HMRC, one in particular more than once. I don't think my reports were ever followed up. Nothing seemed to change. OK, I will be the first to admit they were business competitors and my motives were not as pure as the driven snow but I provided more than enough evidence for an investigation.  

[Mice!]

24 minutes ago, bluesj said:

So you are saying that someone who is self employed and uses the tax rules (made by government) to pay less tax are just the same as people that claim benefits that they are not entitled to

Its brilliant isn't it,  some jobs might be a 12 month contract and you have to work through an agency,  but you're a sponger 🤣🤣

Don't forget you can be finished anytime,  I love how people who have never worked temporary contracts or set up limited companies because that's what the job demands moan about tax dodging.

Working paye is much more straightforward and simple, but you won't get far if your not willing to take risks.

[bluesj]

12 minutes ago, Mice! said:

Its brilliant isn't it,  some jobs might be a 12 month contract and you have to work through an agency,  but you're a sponger 🤣🤣

Don't forget you can be finished anytime,  I love how people who have never worked temporary contracts or set up limited companies because that's what the job demands moan about tax dodging.

Working paye is much more straightforward and simple, but you won't get far if your not willing to take risks.

On the up side of being self employed you only have to work when you want and charge what you like that is as long as no one wants you to work and when they do are willing to pay. And on those days you can't work for any number of reasons  you can always chase unpaid bills, that's always fun.

[oowee]

17 minutes ago, Mice! said:

Its brilliant isn't it,  some jobs might be a 12 month contract and you have to work through an agency,  but you're a sponger 🤣🤣

Don't forget you can be finished anytime,  I love how people who have never worked temporary contracts or set up limited companies because that's what the job demands moan about tax dodging.

Working paye is much more straightforward and simple, but you won't get far if your not willing to take risks.

🤣 Oh please. Work for a salary and hours can be meaningless. When I was self employed it was the easiest ride of my life far easier than working for the Government. Pay rates were three times the level (although a lot of time was not chargeable). Downside for me was keeping up to date with billing, tax and expenses. 

 

[KB1]

3 hours ago, oowee said:

They are no better than benefit cheats.

That sounds plain daft……….  almost like politics of envy from someone who hasn't the first clue how taxation works.