Extreme pheasant shooting

[Smokersmith]

My main beef in the previous thread was folks who go out to 'test their skill' without understanding what their equipment can actually do. I'm therefore pleased to see P'shot having more understanding and a critical view, in this respect. Nothing wrong with felling high, wide, and handsome stuff!!

Recently I'm being more irritated by seeing 20-30 yard stuff shot with 32g of continental 5's!!

[wymberley]

10 hours ago, Perazzishot said:

Wymberly, if you can, speak to Robert Everett at Hull about his most recent developments and his 70yd patterning/impacting of his HPE. Choke and pattern have come together resulting the best pattern and impact using 34/4 fibre in 18.4 barrels is 5/8ths.

No, afraid not. The last time I tried to speak to Hull - even though I had sufficient of their products to meet all my needs stashed arounnd my house and no maker can ask more of any customer than that - was two years back at Hatfield. Even though there was no one else at the stand I was shuffled off with, as though, a poly bag, a couple of brochures and a brassy cartridge head broach was the answer I was looking for.

There's no way that I can get ttheir published figures for their extreme 4 shot to match up and I bottled out at 1625 ft/sec at the muzzle. I honestly suspect that they're somewhat ambitious, but even if not then it's worth noting that their figure relates to the first pellet passed the post and not the main bulk of the pattern which is what normally does the job. Unfortunately, we're now talking a little smaller 34g of an even larger shot than my previous effort which even if you could call the now truly sparse pattern as having a main bulk, the situation is now even worse.

Fortunately, Hamster's penultimate sentence saves me from the need for a rant.

[wigeon jim]

If these guns want to shoot at 80yds go to a clay shooting ground, these shoots are what gives shooting a bad name and will end up getting all game shooting banned, no respect,  Jim.

[Perazzishot]

I think visually to the general public and taken from various anti's comments and political statements, birds being "blown out the sky" "balls of feather" etc etc refer more to birds being pillowcased at close range is more likely to see the demise of game shooting. Not giving a bird a sporting chance is the main complaint with the ley member of the public.

 

[wymberley]

Your first sentence is undoubtably true. A sporting chance is inextricably linked to the previously quoted definition."Extreme" shooting is a relatively new activity (hopefilly to be short lived) and in view of the preparations made and the description of the manner of the birds dying is such that it is only possible to conclude that the shooters are fully aware that a clean kil is going to be the exception and the norm is wounded birds. If your peers can not persuade you that this is not the sporting standard that they'd wish to see in the field, then once the antis wise up to this new-ish activity, you can be damned sure that they will do their best and in so doing take the rest of us down with you.

[old man]

26 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Your first sentence is undoubtably true. A sporting chance is inextricably linked to the previously quoted definition."Extreme" shooting is a relatively new activity (hopefilly to be short lived) and in view of the preparations made and the description of the manner of the birds dying is such that it is only possible to conclude that the shooters are fully aware that a clean kil is going to be the exception and the norm is wounded birds. If your peers can not persuade you that this is not the sporting standard that they'd wish to see in the field, then once the antis wise up to this new-ish activity, you can be damned sure that they will do their best and in so doing take the rest of us down with you.

Sadly, very true. 

I tried not to have an opinion here but failed.

[London Best]

I blame Dave Carrie for promoting it in his show off videos.

[button]

23 minutes ago, London Best said:

I blame Dave Carrie for promoting it in his show off videos.

Think that is a bit harsh, i see no issue with what he does, If you have the ability

[old man]

26 minutes ago, button said:

Think that is a bit harsh, i see no issue with what he does, If you have the ability

It's always about the ability?

[Dibble]

I have been wondering what 80yds up looks like, the high tower at Bisley is 70yd and I miss most of them.

[Hamster]

Just a random thought, I don’t have access to the components (and besides, laid up in pain and misery for the past 5 weeks with sciatica and stuff) but could somebody skin a pheasant or two whole and wrap it round a block of ballistic jelly ? Take a few shots from 80 yards and let’s see how far pellets penetrate; I’d have thought to deliver and cause the collapse of vital organs we’d need at least ten inches of travel, remember on the real thing the pellet is highly likely to hit bones which would prevent its full “function”.

[JDog]

Without sounding immodest I reckon I am a fair judge of distance. When I took teams to shoot high pheasants in Somerset and Devon many birds sailed over at 80 yards and more. None were shot even by experts. Good shots were shooting them at 50 to 60 yards but not killing many outright. 

Not many of my friends would accept invitations to shoot 80 yard plus pheasants especially with those cartridge specifications. 

[JTaylor91]

1 hour ago, JDog said:

Without sounding immodest I reckon I am a fair judge of distance. When I took teams to shoot high pheasants in Somerset and Devon many birds sailed over at 80 yards and more. None were shot even by experts. Good shots were shooting them at 50 to 60 yards but not killing many outright. 

Not many of my friends would accept invitations to shoot 80 yard plus pheasants especially with those cartridge specifications. 

Not sure JDog, that first pigeon I shot out with you was at least 90 yards. You reckoned it was only about 20-30 😆

[wymberley]

1 hour ago, Hamster said:

Just a random thought, I don’t have access to the components (and besides, laid up in pain and misery for the past 5 weeks with sciatica and stuff) but could somebody skin a pheasant or two whole and wrap it round a block of ballistic jelly ? Take a few shots from 80 yards and let’s see how far pellets penetrate; I’d have thought to deliver and cause the collapse of vital organs we’d need at least ten inches of travel, remember on the real thing the pellet is highly likely to hit bones which would prevent its full “function”.

Therein lies the rub. It is known that if two dissimilarly sized pellets have the same energy, then the smaller is the more lethally efficient. This point is often reeserved for, say, comparisons with lead and NTS. The advantage of the smaller shot size becomes obvious when you take pattern density into account. The problem here is that the sheer distance involved is such that a smaller pellet can not be launched at a velocity to maintain that neccessary down range so a larger pellet is required and thus the associated sparse patterns. This is valid because for deducing penetration it is not pellet energy that is taken into account but just one of the two factors of its make up - velocity.

Hull Cartridges have been mentioned. I can't imagine what they're playing at unless they're using UK shooters to trial a product development for some overseas or peculiar niche market. I reckon for the average (majority) UK shooter there'd be a bigger pecuniary advantage in revisiting the smaller shot sizes, say 6&1/2 and 7 for our smaller quarry species.

[Perazzishot]

6 hours ago, wymberley said:

Your first sentence is undoubtably true. A sporting chance is inextricably linked to the previously quoted definition."Extreme" shooting is a relatively new activity (hopefilly to be short lived) and in view of the preparations made and the description of the manner of the birds dying is such that it is only possible to conclude that the shooters are fully aware that a clean kil is going to be the exception and the norm is wounded birds. If your peers can not persuade you that this is not the sporting standard that they'd wish to see in the field, then once the antis wise up to this new-ish activity, you can be damned sure that they will do their best and in so doing take the rest of us down with you.

Wymberley nothing new about extreme shooting I can name at least 15 estates off the top of my head that have been doing extreme drives for over 15 years, they all agree that the shot to kill ratio's have got better as cartridges got better. Notably these were plastic wads, these same shoots are now the ones leading the way with fibre only being required. This once again has pushed manufacturers to work on fibre shells to make them better. The trial batches sent out by the big manufactures to field trial in the last 2 seasons has been huge. I've tried a number of different trial loads and must say the way things are going we will have no problem switching to fibre. I was the biggest sceptic using 30,000+ plas wad cartridges a year. This year even with the option available I have used fibre. 

You have to remember that developments at the very top of the filter down to the benefit of everyone, like F1 developments there eventually filter down to production cars.

Shooting 3 or 4 times a week on extreme birds gives you the practice and the skills required to become competent like anything. We had a gun join our team last week from down South who was on his 1st day, he never hit a bird all day by his own and his loaders admission. He fired just shy of 300 shots. The rest of the line were experienced and very selective shots and we shot just over 300 for 2300 shots. I've seen some farm shoots with averages close to the same and injured birds running around after every drive with not many dogs to pick them and no effort made to go for the long runners.

[Hamster]

I rest my case.

[button]

4 minutes ago, Perazzishot said:

Wymberley nothing new about extreme shooting I can name at least 15 estates off the top of my head that have been doing extreme drives for over 15 years, they all agree that the shot to kill ratio's have got better as cartridges got better. Notably these were plastic wads, these same shoots are now the ones leading the way with fibre only being required. This once again has pushed manufacturers to work on fibre shells to make them better. The trial batches sent out by the big manufactures to field trial in the last 2 seasons has been huge. I've tried a number of different trial loads and must say the way things are going we will have no problem switching to fibre. I was the biggest sceptic using 30,000+ plas wad cartridges a year. This year even with the option available I have used fibre. 

You have to remember that developments at the very top of the filter down to the benefit of everyone, like F1 developments there eventually filter down to production cars.

Shooting 3 or 4 times a week on extreme birds gives you the practice and the skills required to become competent like anything. We had a gun join our team last week from down South who was on his 1st day, he never hit a bird all day by his own and his loaders admission. He fired just shy of 300 shots. The rest of the line were experienced and very selective shots and we shot just over 300 for 2300 shots. I've seen some farm shoots with averages close to the same and injured birds running around after every drive with not many dogs to pick them and no effort made to go for the long runners.

Glad I don't have your cartridge bill! Ha

[CharlieT]

Just now, button said:

Glad I don't have your cartridge bill! Ha

That's small fry compared with all the other costs!

[Stonepark]

5% Antimony No4 at 80 yards has 1.07ftlbs and 0.96inch gel penetration when launched at 1350fps chrono velocity (1400fps muzzle velocity) which is at the top end for a 35/36 cartridge.

[wymberley]

6 minutes ago, Hamster said:

I rest my case.

Let's just hope that it's not a case of resting on our arms, reverse for our sport.

[button]

11 minutes ago, CharlieT said:

That's small fry compared with all the other costs!

True 

Maybe wish I did! Ha

[wymberley]

13 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

5% Antimony No4 at 80 yards has 1.07ftlbs and 0.96inch gel penetration when launched at 1350fps chrono velocity (1400fps muzzle velocity) which is at the top end for a 35/36 cartridge.

Yep, and to compound matters that penetration in real life would be further reduced if the velocity figure which related to a reduction of some 0.5 ftlb of energy by having to cater for the need for the pellet to first punch its way through feather and skin was taken into account

[Hamster]

An excellent clay shot if presented with extreme targets will be able to hit and break 60-70% plus, 85% has been achieved on occasion - 300 for 2300 shots is random strikes with hundreds lightly pricked. 

2 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Yep, and to compound matters that penetration in real life would be further reduced if the velocity figure which related to a reduction of some 0.5 ftlb of energy by having to cater for the need for the pellet to first punch its way through feather and skin.

Exactly 👍 I rest my case even morer. 

[button]

I think regardless of the sport people will want to push the boundaries if not the interest goes, and if the birds are been killed cleanly what's the issue? I know there will be some wounded birds but that is the downside, if they are picked quickly and dispatched, let's not kid ourselves runners dont only happen on extreme shoots

I think the man pulling the trigger has to know their limitations and that is how I would judge a true sportsman 

I like to see the boundaries pushed

 

2 minutes ago, Hamster said:

An excellent clay shot if presented with extreme targets will be able to hit and break 60-70% plus, 85% has been achieved on occasion - 300 for 2300 shots is random strikes with hundreds lightly pricked. 

Exactly 👍 I rest my case even morer. 

How do you work out hundreds lightly pricked, could there not be hundreds of clean misses?

[Perazzishot]

6 minutes ago, Hamster said:

An excellent clay shot if presented with extreme targets will be able to hit and break 60-70% plus, 85% has been achieved on occasion - 300 for 2300 shots is random strikes with hundreds lightly pricked. 

Exactly 👍 I rest my case even morer. 

Hamster if that was the case then surely the 100's of lightly pricked birds from every days shooting with go off and die, the countryside would be littered with dead pheasants and partridges and the shoots shooting 4-6 times a week would have nothing left by November? No these shoots are still doing 300-500 bird days in January so dismisses your point somewhat.

 

As I've said countless times these shoots make more of an effort to collect the birds at the end of each drive than most farm shoots and syndicates, they pay great sums for the best local pickers ups with up to 10 dogs in some cases. At up to £60 per bird they want everything they can in the game cart to ensure refunds are not asked for. a 100 birds not picked is £6000 lost on the books. Same as grouse shooting. Lets not forget about overages, if a team buy a 300 day and shoot 400 picked that is a £6000 bill to that team of guns. Commercial shoots are are business not a charity.

Most people would not know about these type of shoots if it was not for the internet, just like everything else it has given people opportunities to do things they were unaware of, buy things they never thought they could get out in the field giving many opportunities. But the most it has given people is the chance to bitch and moan about others.

I bet if I offered a free peg for a 500 bird extreme day on this site there wouldn't be many who wouldn't want to be considered for the chance? And if you shot and killed an 80 yard pheasant or a few you would remember them for the rest of your days. Thats what shooting is about to me taking memories home after every shoot day. That extreme shot whether on pigeons, ducks, geese, pheasant, partridge especially with mates is what everyone goes out to achieve. 180 at darts, 4 minute mile, 147 at snooker, 100mph in your car, 10 sec 100m, knockout in boxing.