Gun Security at Clay Grounds

[Westley]

1 hour ago, Centrepin said:

I beg to differ, you either fire deliberately or handle a gun so negligently as to cause it to be discharged in the presence of others. No such thing as an accidental discharge.

 

Well, I beg to differ too  !  It was the Military who used the term 'accidental discharge' in the first place. They then went on to tell our Civilian club that their Instructors were far better trained than our 2 CPSA qualified Instructors. Oh yes, I had first hand experience of the 'Military'on a regular basis, even to finding a rifle in the woodland whilst collecting clays. It had 'gone missing' whilst being used on a night training exercise. We would often come out of our clubhouse to be looking down the barrels of a shotgun from the next range. This was one of those superior Instructors teaching a group of Cadets on shotguns, on the clay range  !  After 17 years there and roughly one argument a week, I was left less than impressed by the Military.

[figgy]

Always locked in the car as clubhouse is no guns policy.

[akey]

16 minutes ago, Westley said:

Well, I beg to differ too  !  It was the Military who used the term 'accidental discharge' in the first place. They then went on to tell our Civilian club that their Instructors were far better trained than our 2 CPSA qualified Instructors. Oh yes, I had first hand experience of the 'Military'on a regular basis, even to finding a rifle in the woodland whilst collecting clays. It had 'gone missing' whilst being used on a night training exercise. We would often come out of our clubhouse to be looking down the barrels of a shotgun from the next range. This was one of those superior Instructors teaching a group of Cadets on shotguns, on the clay range  !  After 17 years there and roughly one argument a week, I was left less than impressed by the Military.

Not sure who those instructors were, and to be honest I would be very worried if they were correctly trained Skill at Arms instructors they do not sound particularly professional or safe.  Anyway at least since 1990 the term in the Military has been Negligent Discharge more commonly called an ND.  Yes a firearm can discharge when un-serviceable, that is mechanical fault, but when a person has activated the firing mechanism it is either classed as intended or negligent.  

Last time I knew about a rifle missing, the whole company was up all night searching for it and no-one left the training area until it was found, we then all went on a nice long run to teach us the value our rifles safe  

[discobob]

1 hour ago, Old farrier said:

So you’re in the stand shot your first pair unload check barrels are clear reload close the gun and it goes off 

because a fireing pin broke and jammed causing the gun to fire on closing is that negligence or deliberate? 
 

or maybe accidental ? 

 

There is both - negligent and accidental 

I had an AD when the working parts flew forward on changing the mag on an SMG. It was treated initially as a ND until a report from the armoury confirmed a fault with the safety (which basically held the working parts to the rear). It has a fixed firing pin and loaded and fired the round without the trigger being touched. 
 

Somebody I served with had an ND  while we were guarding Nukes in Germany in the 80’s which involved having loaded magazines with live rounds. He got fined. The lance jack supervising the unload got fined and demoted. The real cause though was exhaustion 

[Westley]

9 minutes ago, akey said:

Not sure who those instructors were, and to be honest I would be very worried if they were correctly trained Skill at Arms instructors they do not sound particularly professional or safe.  Anyway at least since 1990 the term in the Military has been Negligent Discharge more commonly called an ND.  Yes a firearm can discharge when un-serviceable, that is mechanical fault, but when a person has activated the firing mechanism it is either classed as intended or negligent.  

Last time I knew about a rifle missing, the whole company was up all night searching for it and no-one left the training area until it was found, we then all went on a nice long run to teach us the value our rifles safe  

Those Instructors were very often a mix as the range was used by both Regular and TA units (known as SaS). We as er.......... 'Civvies'  were, of course, just renting the range for the day and as such, knew nothing. I also went there during training with the Police, we would use their 'village' set up for our training.  I suppose we were just lucky, we always came back with the same number of weapons that we went out with.

Edited November 25, 2019 by Westley

[London Best]

During an ‘incident’ one night with an armed response unit and we three duck shooters, my mate shoved the barrel of the H&K away from him and told the armed response officer, “don’t point that ****ing thing at my leg.” The officer responded by opening the door and throwing his weapon on to the backseat of his patrol car. We don’t know to this day if it was loaded or not.

Wonderfully trained!

[Centrepin]

To answer some points raised. 

If the trigger is pulled, it's either deliberate or negligent. Fact.

A military ND as far as I'm aware has been non accidental since the early 70s when someone challenged the word accidental, since then negligent. 

If someone was acting in a less than professional manner on a military range or anywhere else for that matter, negligent in their duty or deliberate. You can't be accidentally instructed. No other explanation is possible. 

Loss of a weapon, negligent. No excuse.

Pointing a gun of any description at anyone for no deliberate reason, negligence. No excuses.

Gun malfunction maybe the exception, I've seen miss fires, I've seen a run away gun on a GPMG when it stuck on auto. I've known sears wear  or break. If the gun/weapon is being safely handled, it will be pointing in a safe place, ie: down range. If not, negligent. 

Having stated all that, if someone discharges a gun indoors as previously stated, then I say it's either deliberate or negligent.  

I make no excuses for poorly equipped, poorly led, or poorly trained (or under instruction) military, police or anyone else.

You either handle a gun safely or negligently. It's impossible to handle any gun accidentally.

 

 

[Harnser]

3 hours ago, Scully said:

I have many a time. You’d think he would have mentioned it wouldn’t you, if that’s where most guns are stolen from? 

On my last renewal I was told by my FEO that they were concerned about the number of thefts of guns from clay grounds . He said to me that it was gun owners responsibility to make sure that their guns were secure at all times .  He told me that most stolen guns were stolen from clay grounds .  I really don’t care if you believe me or not .

harnser

 

 

[discobob]

1 hour ago, Centrepin said:

Gun malfunction maybe the exception, I've seen miss fires, I've seen a run away gun on a GPMG when it stuck on auto. I've known sears wear  or break. If the gun/weapon is being safely handled, it will be pointing in a safe place, ie: down range. If not, negligent. 

I still hit the target on the 25mtr range - gun was perfectly in control

[Centrepin]

2 minutes ago, discobob said:

I still hit the target on the 25mtr range - gun was perfectly in control

The SMG was known for its malfunctioning as was it's predecessor the Sten, hit the butt hard enough once cocked and it would release the working parts forward (Much like the SA80 & LSW in the 80/90s). You cleared a barrel blockage by firing another round through it held at arms length.

I was once told it was produced originally for 10/-   10 shillings (50p) and I can well believe it.

When you look back now at how basic and poor they were and how little parts they had yet still went wrong. 

Now the Bren, that's a proper weapon..............

Pull up a sandbag and sit a while......

😉

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Blimey, some of you could start an argument in a phone box, remember them?

 

None of you have mentioned the 3rd category of a "failure in training"

[Scully]

8 hours ago, Harnser said:

On my last renewal I was told by my FEO that they were concerned about the number of thefts of guns from clay grounds . He said to me that it was gun owners responsibility to make sure that their guns were secure at all times .  He told me that most stolen guns were stolen from clay grounds .  I really don’t care if you believe me or not .

harnser

 

 

I’m not doubting you, just your FEO. A significant number were once stolen from Kelbrook shooting ground a few years ago, following a break in but out of business hours, and not in the context which the OP is referring to, namely from a gun stand during a shoot. 

[discobob]

8 hours ago, Centrepin said:

The SMG was known for its malfunctioning as was it's predecessor the Sten, hit the butt hard enough once cocked and it would release the working parts forward (Much like the SA80 & LSW in the 80/90s). You cleared a barrel blockage by firing another round through it held at arms length.

I was once told it was produced originally for 10/-   10 shillings (50p) and I can well believe it.

When you look back now at how basic and poor they were and how little parts they had yet still went wrong. 

Now the Bren, that's a proper weapon..............

Pull up a sandbag and sit a while......

😉

The SMG looked the part in the Star Wars movies though

[Centrepin]

10 minutes ago, discobob said:

The SMG looked the part in the Star Wars movies though

If only it could really fure laser beams 😁

1 hour ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Blimey, some of you could start an argument in a phone box, remember them?

 

None of you have mentioned the 3rd category of a "failure in training"

😁😁😁

Red or Silver? 

Press A, press B, old pennies

2p or 5p?

Totally take your point.

I bow out happy in my own beliefs👍

[Vince Green]

The police don't always regard 'locked in the car' as adequate security. One of those "we can make the rules up as we go along" situations. I have a U bolt and a heavy duty steel cable with padlock as well in my boot. Damned what ever you do, if it goes missing you are in the do-do

Years ago our then club liaison officer made a telling comment, stolen guns virtually never get used in crime - they are too valuable. They disappear abroad

 

Edited November 26, 2019 by Vince Green

[bornfree]

I was at orston on Sunday shooting the registered sporting. And it certainly makes you think, the times you put your gun in the slip down on your bag whilst putting the cards in or looking at the targets.

Edited November 26, 2019 by bornfree

[HW95J]

Depends on the clay ground as to my own approach. There are some where I don't hang about in the clubhouse so I just keep the gun with me whilst checking in and paying at the end (in a slip). Others have car park visible from clubhouse so if having a coffee  etc will leave in boot in view, car is alarmed and can keep a fore-end/bolt with me. A few places I've been to I've just kept slipped gun with me while having a tea (if they're dedicated clay ground). It's just whatever is most practical in each different situation. 

Where I shoot most regularly I put guns in the boot when taking a break because it's a busy place and has other non-shooting related activities going on. It would be a bit antisocial to have a shotgun lying about where it can be tripped over etc. I'd feel the same if someone sat their golf bag next to their table. 

Something worth bearing in mind is that most places will have guns to hire which have to be kept securely, potentially an option to ask if you can leave it in that area temporarily.

[Northern Gunner]

Maybe Clay Grounds should do away with Gun Racks, thereby discouraging the temptation to leave Guns unattended.

Just a thought for people to debate and have a bun fight over 😎 

[Rewulf]

On 26/11/2019 at 20:40, bornfree said:

I was at orston on Sunday shooting the registered sporting. And it certainly makes you think, the times you put your gun in the slip down on your bag whilst putting the cards in or looking at the targets.

After the gun was stolen from Orston, you would think people would be a bit more on their guard.

2 weeks ago (maybe a returning thief) took a 12 plate pick up truck from out the car park , complete with dog in the back (dog has since been recovered)

Im assuming the keys were left in it ?

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Blimey, that's not good!

[London Best]

7 hours ago, Northern Gunner said:

Maybe Clay Grounds should do away with Gun Racks, thereby discouraging the temptation to leave Guns unattended.

Just a thought for people to debate and have a bun fight over 😎 

Very sensible idea. So simple.

[wascal]

On 25/11/2019 at 23:28, Centrepin said:

Now the Bren, that's a proper weapon..............

😉

Had a runaway Bren once !  The drill was to hit the mag forward and out, but you didn't really  have time before it ran out of bullets .That was my excuse 😁

[Centrepin]

30 minutes ago, wascal said:

Had a runaway Bren once !  The drill was to hit the mag forward and out, but you didn't really  have time before it ran out of bullets .That was my excuse 😁

It was a sad day when the final Bren went. We kept ours until the silly SA80 was forced on us. They would have been better keeping it and scrapping the LSW.

[Salopian]

Just come in on this thread !

Maybe Orston should organise a Vermin shoot for Boxing Day?

[Perazzishot]

On 26/11/2019 at 16:47, Vince Green said:

The police don't always regard 'locked in the car' as adequate security. One of those "we can make the rules up as we go along" situations. I have a U bolt and a heavy duty steel cable with padlock as well in my boot. Damned what ever you do, if it goes missing you are in the do-do

Years ago our then club liaison officer made a telling comment, stolen guns virtually never get used in crime - they are too valuable. They disappear abroad

 

I've seen sawn off purdeys, a criminal with intent to steal a gun for criminal purposes don't care what make or model!