39TDS Posted December 3, 2019 Report Share Posted December 3, 2019 A convicted terrorist was invited to a conference at London Bridge? Where will they hold the next one, in the halls of Westminster? Next door to number 10? How do these people think these things up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted December 3, 2019 Report Share Posted December 3, 2019 2 minutes ago, 39TDS said: A convicted terrorist was invited to a conference at London Bridge? Where will they hold the next one, in the halls of Westminster? Next door to number 10? How do these people think these things up? It's our modern liberal society! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoBodyImportant Posted December 3, 2019 Report Share Posted December 3, 2019 1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said: It was on display in the Fishmongers Hall, the meeting venue where the incident started. They are rare (and very expensive) display items. Nice, adapt and over come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted December 3, 2019 Report Share Posted December 3, 2019 2 hours ago, 39TDS said: A convicted terrorist was invited to a conference at London Bridge? Where will they hold the next one, in the halls of Westminster? Next door to number 10? How do these people think these things up? So was a convicted murderer, however the conference was about rehabilitation of offenders and among those who were leading the attack on the terrorist was that convicted murderer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southeastpete Posted December 3, 2019 Report Share Posted December 3, 2019 4 minutes ago, henry d said: So was a convicted murderer, however the conference was about rehabilitation of offenders and among those who were leading the attack on the terrorist was that convicted murderer. I don’t think he’s questioning the conferences motives, or type of person attending, more the location to be inviting terrorists to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted December 3, 2019 Report Share Posted December 3, 2019 8 minutes ago, southeastpete said: I don’t think he’s questioning the conferences motives, or type of person attending, more the location to be inviting terrorists to. I'm sure it would have been possible to find a conference venue outside major conurbations or cities - possibly even secure site - such as on prison premises? I presume prisons would have a suitably large room on site available. There didn't seem that many people present in the photos that have been shown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted December 3, 2019 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted December 3, 2019 Report Share Posted December 3, 2019 Good grief, how does her brain work, is it hard wired to full on STUPID? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted December 3, 2019 Report Share Posted December 3, 2019 Two young people were murdered because the police weren't there when needed, and they themselves ( the victims ) were denied by law the choice to carry any effective means which would give them the chance to defend themselves or others. Cressida **** stated armed response took 'just five minutes' to get there, conveniently overlooking the fact that when seconds count, the police are minutes away. Not much else to say really, unless you want to point out that a convicted terrorist had been released back into society. The parents of these two people have my utmost respect for the manner and restraint with which they are handling this tragedy; they are much more understanding than I could ever be. Those who deny law abiding people the means with which to defend themselves, compelling them to be victims, and those who would release scum back onto our streets, have my utter contempt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted December 3, 2019 Report Share Posted December 3, 2019 That’s the society we now have to live in, no one is held accountable! 96 people at Hillsborough unlawfully killed! No one responsible! Birmingham pub bombing murders, evidence disappeared, no one bought to book, no one responsible! Numerous crimes by criminals being released early (including murder and rape) no one accountable! Illegal immigrants streaming into the UK on a daily basis, no one accountable! Police making up their own rules on gun licensing, no one accountable! And on, and on, and on.........There are so many high profile people in this country, appointed to do specific highly paid, responsible jobs, when they fail, they are seldom if ever held to account!...they just move on to another lucrative appointment! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted December 4, 2019 Report Share Posted December 4, 2019 A more detailed account of what happend inside the building. https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2407904552653864&id=429805497130456 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retsdon Posted December 4, 2019 Report Share Posted December 4, 2019 (edited) On 03/12/2019 at 15:56, TIGHTCHOKE said: Good grief, how does her brain work, is it hard wired to full on STUPID? No that I agree with her on pretty much anything, but Diane Abbot is right on this one. Draconian sentencing has never worked to solve a terrorism problem. Actually - and again as a rule there's not much that I agree with them about - I think the Saudis have a better approach. What they do here is to put these people into 'rehabilitation' programmes. And how it works is that in these programmes the inmates are made to study and dissect the teachings of the Koran and the Hadiths under the guidance of high level Islamic scholars. The idea is that these scholars can show the Jihadis that they are misinterpreting the teachings of Mohammed, and that the path they're currently on will lead them to the Pit unless they move quick sharp to the sunny side. And to me it makes sense. You can't deter someone from a path if he believes that he is doing God's work, or if he thinks that he is fighting/murdering in a holy cause. But if you can genuinely convince him that imposters and charlatans have misused the Holy Teachings to lead him up the garden path into the arms of the Devil, you've basically rendered him safe. Once the authorities believe that the jihadist has been 'turned' they let these people out to do Islamic charity work, etc, etc, while they monitor them. Eventually, once the authorities are convinced that the conversion to the sunny side is genuine, they then use the former Jihadists to talk to and convince others not to go to the dark side. It's not about being soft - let's face it, the Saudi legal system is anything but that. Rather it's about using the tool that will best do the job. Edited December 4, 2019 by Retsdon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted December 4, 2019 Report Share Posted December 4, 2019 8 minutes ago, Retsdon said: Draconian sentencing has never worked to solve a terrorism problem. I think you will agree - someone locked up in jail is not able to roam the streets committing terrorism. It isn't draconian sentencing - it is locking up those who would commit harm to others - in order to protect the public. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retsdon Posted December 4, 2019 Report Share Posted December 4, 2019 Just now, JohnfromUK said: I think you will agree - someone locked up in jail is not able to roam the streets committing terrorism. Agreed. But he's able to keep preaching his nonsense and you have to pay to house him. And what happens when you let him out? What's more, you have to question whether locking him up might not just make things worse. Look at this Usman Khan for example. He hadn't actually done anything before he was first convicted. OK, he was a peripheral member of a group of nutters that had discussed setting up a terrorist training camp in Pakistan (although they didn't have any means at all to do it), attacking the London Stock Exchange, and bombing pubs in Stoke. It sounds terrible, but whether these were genuine plans or the fantasies of weekend warriors was never determined because they were all arrested, and pleaded guilty to charges laid under Section 5 of the Terrorism Act 2006 in which - . "(2)It is irrelevant for the purposes of subsection (1) whether the intention and preparations relate to one or more particular acts of terrorism, acts of terrorism of a particular description or acts of terrorism generally." In other words nothing concrete need be planned - just talk will get you convicted. And then he was given an indeterminate sentence under the IPP law - a Kafkaesque provision that was later quashed by the European Court as being in contravention of human rights. And not surprisingly it was quashed because in order to get released an inmate had to 'prove' that he was not a threat to anyone. And good luck with that one! So his sentence was changed to a fixed 16 years (people who have actually committed murder get less) and he was let out after 7. Embittered much? Well if he wasn't before he went in..... And the result was there for all to see. Contrast that to the Saudi approach. I can just imagine how a nineteen year old weekend jihadist from Stoke would react to a few sharp talks with my old friend Mohsin Al Otaibi, Professor of Islamic Studies. Mohsin is a massive bear of a man with a shaggy beard and a large hooked nose who looks like a murderous extra from the set of Lawrence of Arabia. He's also one of Saudi's leading Islamic scholars and a very funny guy when he wants to be. But I'm damned sure I wouldn't want to be on the wrong side of him! Anyway, my point is that I don't mind betting that if a young Usman had been given a few hours at the outset with him, Mohsin's force of personality and encyclopedic knowledge of Islamic teachings would have convinced the lad from Stoke that he was making a fool of himself and his religion by listening to poisonous second-rate barroom preachers like Chowdry. And the potential problem would have been solved before it became an actual problem. Instead, as it turned out the heavy-handed approach escalated the whole situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted December 4, 2019 Report Share Posted December 4, 2019 If he hadn't actually done anything, it beats me why he made a guilty plea. Subsequent events make a nonsense of your view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retsdon Posted December 4, 2019 Report Share Posted December 4, 2019 1 minute ago, Gordon R said: If he hadn't actually done anything, it beats me why he made a guilty plea. Subsequent events make a nonsense of your view. Because under section 5, simply discussing an act of terrorism gets you convicted. The prosecution doesn't have to provide evidence of any concrete plan. So I suppose that they figured they would get convicted anyway and if the pleaded guilty they might get a lesser sentence. Doubtless their lawyers told them as much as well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted December 4, 2019 Report Share Posted December 4, 2019 Just because he got caught, before he committed an atrocity, is no reason to not lock him up. He didn't get caught before killing two innocent people. Lock them up and throw away the key. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted December 4, 2019 Report Share Posted December 4, 2019 23 minutes ago, Retsdon said: Agreed. But he's able to keep preaching his nonsense and you have to pay to house him. You are of course right - in that I'd rather not pay and deport the individual to a place where he likes the regime (not sure where that might be) - but we can't do that. I cannot really comment on the Saudi approach as I don't understand it. All I will say is that I can't see it happening over here. Human Rights or some such nonsense would prevent it. As a sure way (albeit not cheap) of preventing the risk of attack, but not irritating any of our liberal politicians too much (or at least their consciences if politicians have such feature) - locking up and throwing away the key is a compromise we can get away with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB1 Posted December 4, 2019 Report Share Posted December 4, 2019 3 hours ago, Retsdon said: No that I agree with her on pretty much anything, but Diane Abbot is right on this one. Draconian sentencing has never worked to solve a terrorism problem. Actually - and again as a rule there's not much that I agree with them about - I think the Saudis have a better approach. What they do here is to put these people into 'rehabilitation' programmes. And how it works is that in these programmes the inmates are made to study and dissect the teachings of the Koran and the Hadiths under the guidance of high level Islamic scholars. The idea is that these scholars can show the Jihadis that they are misinterpreting the teachings of Mohammed, and that the path they're currently on will lead them to the Pit unless they move quick sharp to the sunny side. And to me it makes sense. You can't deter someone from a path if he believes that he is doing God's work, or if he thinks that he is fighting/murdering in a holy cause. But if you can genuinely convince him that imposters and charlatans have misused the Holy Teachings to lead him up the garden path into the arms of the Devil, you've basically rendered him safe. Once the authorities believe that the jihadist has been 'turned' they let these people out to do Islamic charity work, etc, etc, while they monitor them. Eventually, once the authorities are convinced that the conversion to the sunny side is genuine, they then use the former Jihadists to talk to and convince others not to go to the dark side. It's not about being soft - let's face it, the Saudi legal system is anything but that. Rather it's about using the tool that will best do the job. For example: Public lashings for homosexual acts, blasphemy etc….. Amputation for repeated theft…... Beheading for a multitude of sins…….. An Eye for an Eye (Literally) 🙄 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozz Posted December 7, 2019 Report Share Posted December 7, 2019 On 29/11/2019 at 22:14, markm said: Sorry (and I’m sure you will agree) all of these people need a pride of Britain award and a knighthood. And a pie and a pint Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozz Posted December 7, 2019 Report Share Posted December 7, 2019 (edited) On 29/11/2019 at 22:13, Deker said: In some photos it just looked like a handkerchief but in others something bigger, not that it really matters, if he is the one who disarmed the terrorist then he's one brave man And a kitchen knife too. What wee need in this country is acurate statistics. Could u imagine if evry gun and knife crime the media were to say a kitchen knife or hunting knife. A legaly held firearm or I legaly held firearm ect the general public and my mother in law would have a different opinion about my 3"folding pocket knife and my legaly held shotgun. Yes I know this was a terror incident commited by someone who shouldn't have been on the streets in my books but I was listening to some mental snowflake in the shop the other day while I was reading the headlines say to her purple hair pal that we should ban knives and it would stop all this happening ?? Edited December 7, 2019 by Ozz Spelling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted December 7, 2019 Report Share Posted December 7, 2019 7 minutes ago, Ozz said: And a kitchen knife too. What wee need in this country is acurate statistics. Could u imagine if evry gun and knife crime the media were to say a kitchen knife or hunting knife. A legaly held firearm or I legaly held firearm ect the general public and my mother in law would have a different opinion about my 3"folding pocket knife and my legaly held shotgun. Yes I know this was a terror incident commited by someone who shouldn't have been on the streets in my books but I was listening to some mental snowflake in the shop the other day while I was reading the headlines say to her purple hair pal that we should ban knives and it would stop all this happening ?? She is not a snowflake, she is just thick as ****!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted December 7, 2019 Report Share Posted December 7, 2019 On 04/12/2019 at 19:09, KB1 said: For example: Public lashings for homosexual acts, blasphemy etc….. Amputation for repeated theft…... Beheading for a multitude of sins…….. An Eye for an Eye (Literally) 🙄 That's not an eye for an eye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted December 7, 2019 Report Share Posted December 7, 2019 Quote An Eye for an Eye (Literally) Quote That's not an eye for an eye. I think you will find that is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted December 7, 2019 Report Share Posted December 7, 2019 Oh blessed are the bloody liberals! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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