Lead ban & BASC

[hod]

7 minutes ago, AULD YIN said:

• I thought  zealots where confined to wild justice packham greens etc but  one definitely stands out on here 

 Very much so.  

[lancer425]

12 minutes ago, AULD YIN said:

• I thought  zealots where confined to wild justice packham greens etc but  one definitely stands out on here 

I see anyone who opposes your view is a Zealot.

[AULD YIN]

5 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

I see anyone who opposes your view is a Zealot.

NOPE

[lancer425]

1 minute ago, AULD YIN said:

NOPE

NOPE? Pray Explain .

[AULD YIN]

Just now, lancer425 said:

NOPE? Pray Explain .

Do i have to ,is this part of your new regime

[lancer425]

Just now, AULD YIN said:

Do i have to ,is this part of your new regime

No not if you do not want to. But interested in my NEW REGIME.

But do not expect you really had anything worthwhile to include regarding that either.

[AULD YIN]

Will desist posting on this thread  as i do not wish it to be closed on my account

[lancer425]

44 minutes ago, AULD YIN said:

Will desist posting on this thread  as i do not wish it to be closed on my account

I thought you might.

[Rob85]

This should probably be in the reloading section but as it's somewhat regarding this thread I'll put it here.....this may already have been covered/said but I haven't read every single contribution to the thread.

With some people maybe panicking about having a 2 and a half inch chambered gun and nobody/very few manufacturers doing a steel loaded cartridge in that chambering I was just thinking (As you do when you're bored and on nightshift) if you were not worried about running the steel shot through your guns would it not be ok to buy some standard 2 3/4 steel cartridges, open the crimp, trim it down to size and put in an overshot card and reseal with some candlewax? I thought the cartridge size referred to them when they had been fired, therefore the chamber size was to allow for the crimp to stop it entering the main bore. Of course this may not be true for older guns before crimp was commonplace but surely trimming and putting an overshot card on might just get people out of a pinch without paying a fortune for special loaded cartridges.

[lancer425]

5 hours ago, Rob85 said:

This should probably be in the reloading section but as it's somewhat regarding this thread I'll put it here.....this may already have been covered/said but I haven't read every single contribution to the thread.

With some people maybe panicking about having a 2 and a half inch chambered gun and nobody/very few manufacturers doing a steel loaded cartridge in that chambering I was just thinking (As you do when you're bored and on nightshift) if you were not worried about running the steel shot through your guns would it not be ok to buy some standard 2 3/4 steel cartridges, open the crimp, trim it down to size and put in an overshot card and reseal with some candlewax? I thought the cartridge size referred to them when they had been fired, therefore the chamber size was to allow for the crimp to stop it entering the main bore. Of course this may not be true for older guns before crimp was commonplace but surely trimming and putting an overshot card on might just get people out of a pinch without paying a fortune for special loaded cartridges.

In theory yes, BUT the 70mm loads wadding "remember they are full length bucket wads." Might encroach on any crinp you reform, you do not want the mouth of the wad wrapped in the crimp anywhere this tears sections of the crimp off and bumps pressure up "lots" So you need to trim the hull and the wad, Really but suppose its doable, but hardly practical.

[wymberley]

6 hours ago, Rob85 said:

This should probably be in the reloading section but as it's somewhat regarding this thread I'll put it here.....this may already have been covered/said but I haven't read every single contribution to the thread.

With some people maybe panicking about having a 2 and a half inch chambered gun and nobody/very few manufacturers doing a steel loaded cartridge in that chambering I was just thinking (As you do when you're bored and on nightshift) if you were not worried about running the steel shot through your guns would it not be ok to buy some standard 2 3/4 steel cartridges, open the crimp, trim it down to size and put in an overshot card and reseal with some candlewax? I thought the cartridge size referred to them when they had been fired, therefore the chamber size was to allow for the crimp to stop it entering the main bore. Of course this may not be true for older guns before crimp was commonplace but surely trimming and putting an overshot card on might just get people out of a pinch without paying a fortune for special loaded cartridges.

Don't know, but what I do know is that the 3 + 1 criteria are still in place and consequently there should be no need for this. Now, we have to be sensible and accept that as it's not possible to do the other, neither is it possible to please all of the people all of the time. At some point we and the powers that be are going to have to compromise and also put their/our hands in their/our pockets. Consequently, the organisations should leave the loaders to get on with their job and concentrate on getting ready for the infighting - by specifying what we will expect, what we understand that there is a need for us to pay extra for and just possibly what we may just lose altogether. Also (and obviously we're talking formal legislation here, not voluntary) we need to detail what reimbursement we expect in the case of any losses. As there is at least 5 years in which to do this we need to get it done so we're ready to negotiate as the last thing we need is them putting their hands in our pockets.

[Rob85]

1 hour ago, lancer425 said:

In theory yes, BUT the 70mm loads wadding "remember they are full length bucket wads." Might encroach on any crinp you reform, you do not want the mouth of the wad wrapped in the crimp anywhere this tears sections of the crimp off and bumps pressure up "lots" So you need to trim the hull and the wad, Really but suppose its doable, but hardly practical.

The thought just came to me as I remembered at one point a few years ago I was looking for something heavy for foxes and my gun at the time was a Baikal 2 3/4 chamber and my local rfd sold me gamebore buffalo 36g AAA. As far as I remember he explained that these were almost a full 2 3/4 cartridge before firing and how it avoided trouble was to have a small roll turnover and overshot wad to prevent the case entering the forcing cone.

 

44 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Don't know, but what I do know is that the 3 + 1 criteria are still in place and consequently there should be no need for this. Now, we have to be sensible and accept that as it's not possible to do the other, neither is it possible to please all of the people all of the time. At some point we and the powers that be are going to have to compromise and also put their/our hands in their/our pockets. Consequently, the organisations should leave the loaders to get on with their job and concentrate on getting ready for the infighting - by specifying what we will expect, what we understand that there is a need for us to pay extra for and just possibly what we may just lose altogether. Also (and obviously we're talking formal legislation here, not voluntary) we need to detail what reimbursement we expect in the case of any losses. As there is at least 5 years in which to do this we need to get it done so we're ready to negotiate as the last thing we need is them putting their hands in our pockets.

See this is what the organisation's should be doing right now if they want to try and regain the trust of shooters after this debacle...maybe just a slight acceptance that they made a hash of things and then get straight on with what they are being paid for...lobbying on our behalf. If there was a strong collective voice saying "these are the kind of cartridges we want/need" and not a company firing out a cartridge saying here have a go with these and see what yous think...then in 5 years time there should be no reason why you can't have off the shelf cartridges to suit almost every gun. The main crux of the matter is the wad. 5 years to concentrate on 1 part of the cartridge? Surely a fibre wad/shot cup that can carry steel in a 2.5inch cartridge is WELL within the realms of possibilities. I suppose it doesn't affect me really as I don't have a short chambered gun but I hate the thought of all the old well loved guns becoming worthless because it's too expensive to shoot them. 

[Smokersmith]

8 hours ago, Rob85 said:

This should probably be in the reloading section but as it's somewhat regarding this thread I'll put it here.....this may already have been covered/said but I haven't read every single contribution to the thread.

With some people maybe panicking about having a 2 and a half inch chambered gun and nobody/very few manufacturers doing a steel loaded cartridge in that chambering I was just thinking (As you do when you're bored and on nightshift) if you were not worried about running the steel shot through your guns would it not be ok to buy some standard 2 3/4 steel cartridges, open the crimp, trim it down to size and put in an overshot card and reseal with some candlewax? I thought the cartridge size referred to them when they had been fired, therefore the chamber size was to allow for the crimp to stop it entering the main bore. Of course this may not be true for older guns before crimp was commonplace but surely trimming and putting an overshot card on might just get people out of a pinch without paying a fortune for special loaded cartridges.

This would work to some extent.

The trimmed section would not interfere with the forcing cones, so in that respect job done.

However to achieve the designed speed of the load, the powder would be dosed specifically for a star crimp … and typically RTO's open easier, and create less pressure so there may be a slight performance loss.

A good idea, but whilst we can still use lead and fibre … I'll do that.

[motty]

On 04/03/2020 at 19:39, wymberley said:

No actually. I know full well what a dedicated bunch they are. I was forced to knock it on the head many years ago while up at Findhorn. The state of my body renders me a liability on the marsh and I will not put others at risk. Howver, this whole topic as strange as it may seem when you consider just how many posts refer to it is not just about 'fowlers. Thinking back at what you used to display, could you afford tungsten when shooting the number of pigeon that you did - factory loads at that, not everyone reloads?

I could never afford much other than lead or steek for my pigeon shooting, that's true.

[markm]

Well well. Gamebore don’t seem that happy with this lot!

New statement.   

https://gamebore.com/uk/news/news/additional-statement

[rbrowning2]

And Express -

Following our statement of the 28th February, we confirm that Lyalvale Express stands firm on all points.  Lyalvale Express were made aware to the announcement in the form of a single email over the weekend from the GTA. This is notconsultation, with the statement already written and signed. We have had No conversation with BASC or any of the other 8 organisations over the voluntary phasing out of lead shot and plastic wads. Any claim of this is simply untrue. Lyalvale Express for over 30 years have been manufacturing shotgun cartridges, the expertise and experience in manufacturing the finest cartridges has provided us with a wealth of knowledge and expertise. We would have been pleased to have had opportunity to give help on the issue if we had been consulted. We continue the task of improvement and development of alternative products benefiting the industry, sport and shooters alike. We trust that this clarifies any remaining uncertainty regarding Lyalvale Express’s involvement.   Friday 6th March 2020

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Well someone, somewhere is telling porkies!

[rbrowning2]

2 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Well someone, somewhere is telling porkies!

Indeed it is time the GTA or one of the nine shooting organisations told the truth and informed their members as to why they did this and who took the lead roll in it.

 

[JJsDad]

3 minutes ago, markm said:

Gamebore don’t seem that happy with this lot!

Cant say I blame them. The announcement would have been considerably more meaningful if all the shooting orgs had brought the cartridge manufacturers on board before releasing their joint statement. I have been a member since the WAGBI days and I will remain so. But someone on the management board of each of the organisations who signed up to this, needs a serious kick up the ar**. They have weakend their case and made the whole collection of them look poorly informed and boardering on the stupid; in addition they have seriously upset the people we need on board from the cartridge industry.

[JohnfromUK]

3 minutes ago, JJsDad said:

I have been a member since the WAGBI days and I will remain so. But someone on the management board of each of the organisations who signed up to this, needs a serious kick up the ar**. They have weakend their case and made the whole collection of them look poorly informed and boardering on the stupid; in addition they have seriously upset the people we need on board from the cartridge industry.

+1

I have also been a long standing member - and whilst very unhappy with the current 'mess', don't intend to quite (at least not for now).  They will however lose a lot of members - and the revenue that goes with the membership. 

VERY badly handled.

Edited March 6, 2020 by JohnfromUK

[rbrowning2]

Don’t think the cartridge manufactures would have signed up to it think they would have told them the simple truth that the industry lacks the capacity and product range to achieve this in five years which is exactly why they said it was impossible in their first statement.

 

My basc membership is hanging by a thread. All trust with them has gone.

[theshootist]

27 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

And Express -

Following our statement of the 28th February, we confirm that Lyalvale Express stands firm on all points.  Lyalvale Express were made aware to the announcement in the form of a single email over the weekend from the GTA. This is notconsultation, with the statement already written and signed. We have had No conversation with BASC or any of the other 8 organisations over the voluntary phasing out of lead shot and plastic wads. Any claim of this is simply untrue. Lyalvale Express for over 30 years have been manufacturing shotgun cartridges, the expertise and experience in manufacturing the finest cartridges has provided us with a wealth of knowledge and expertise. We would have been pleased to have had opportunity to give help on the issue if we had been consulted. We continue the task of improvement and development of alternative products benefiting the industry, sport and shooters alike. We trust that this clarifies any remaining uncertainty regarding Lyalvale Express’s involvement.   Friday 6th March 2020

Well I'm stunned. An email over a weekend to a business like that and under these circumstances is just incredible. I really hope BASC can get past this. 

[motty]

18 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Don’t think the cartridge manufactures would have signed up to it think they would have told them the simple truth that the industry lacks the capacity and product range to achieve this in five years which is exactly why they said it was impossible in their first statement.

 

My basc membership is hanging by a thread. All trust with them has gone.

I firmly believe that manufacturers could provide many alternatives in 5 years time.

[mick miller]

14 minutes ago, motty said:

I firmly believe that manufacturers could provide many alternatives in 5 years time.

Exactly, the rest of the market including the US has had 20 plus years to come up with something that meets both criteria, and as yet hasn't, so another 5 should sort it.🤞

Edited March 6, 2020 by mick miller

[rbrowning2]

7 minutes ago, motty said:

I firmly believe that manufacturers could provide many alternatives in 5 years time.

And I firmly believe that the manufactures could not provide many alternatives in 5 years time, the uk cartridge manufactures lack the resources to do so, they mainly assemble components manufactured by EU companies if these companies don’t have the quantity or product range, like now,  then it won’t happen. And so far we have one small niche manufacture making a very small quantity of the water soluble wads, Assuming it is technically possible, Who would fund their massive expansion in manufacturing capacity and range?  The EU we have just left?