True origin of Covid

[Hamster]

1 hour ago, SpringDon said:

Well that’s me convinced, after all no other country in the world has a microbiology lab performing viral research. (Apart from all of them).

 

👍

How incredibly astute of the Chinese to deliberately destroy the economies of their best customers (who also happen to owe them trillions) whilst also killing thousands of their own AND destroying their own economy too, and why wouldn’t you do that only 20 miles from a research centre so the entire world thinks it’s you. 

Goodness me.

its not like if this were a US conspiracy that they’d have the nouse to send their infected soldiers in a place only 20 miles from the lab is it ? Surely the CIA wouldn’t be that clever !  

[12gauge82]

14 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

...which inclines me to change my original opinion that it might well have come out of the Wuhan lab. From weapons of mass destruction onward you can pretty much guarantee that when the US and Uk governments come out pointing fingers at the same time that it's a pack of lies. 

😂😂😂

 

[Hamster]

1 hour ago, henry d said:

Ah but, it also started in a lab in America, near fort Detrick iirc, they had a cease and desist order from CDC. Then some soldiers from there went to the world army games at Wuhan, DELIBERATELY to infect the Chinese and cause them irreparable economic damage.

However it has been proved that it is not man made, so if it looks like a natural virus, acts like a natural virus, then...

Must be true then!

👍

 

[12gauge82]

4 minutes ago, Hamster said:

👍

How incredibly astute of the Chinese to deliberately destroy the economies of their best customers (who also happen to owe them trillions) whilst also killing thousands of their own AND destroying their own economy too, and why wouldn’t you do that only 20 miles from a research centre so the entire world thinks it’s you. 

Goodness me.

its not like if this were a US conspiracy that they’d have the nouse to send their infected soldiers in a place only 20 miles from the lab is it ? Surely the CIA wouldn’t be that clever !  

I'm not implying that they released the virus on purpose, the point is, that the likelihood of it having come out of the bio lab is now looking a far more likely option.

[Retsdon]

9 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

50% missed?

On Tuesday, figures released by the UK's Office of National Statistics (ONS), showed that the 1,568 people had Covid-19 listed on their death certificates between March 5, when the first death was reported, and March 27.

In contrast, death tolls released by Public Health England over the same period show only 926 confirmed deaths due to the virus in England.

Here you go...https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/07/uk/coronavirus-uk-deaths-intl-gbr/index.html

[Delwint]

40 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

I read China has today, without explanation, upped the total coronavirus death rate in Wuhan, by exactly 50% 🤔 they must have missed a few when counting? 

1,2, miss a few 99, 100 😂

[Mice!]

43 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

I read China has today, without explanation, upped the total coronavirus death rate in Wuhan, by exactly 50% 🤔 they must have missed a few when counting? 

This sounds awful but they were probably burying people in mass graves and only counting the the top layer, so next week it might be 3 or 4 times the number

[Retsdon]

I'm no fan of China at all, but there's a lot of unfounded criticism and misplaced smugness on this thread.

The Chinese explanation is:-

“due to the insufficiency in admission and treatment capability, a few medical institutions failed to connect with the disease prevention and control system in time, while hospitals were overloaded and medics were overwhelmed with patients.'.... 'New death cases were added because non-hospitalized deaths had not been registered at the disease control information system and some confirmed cases had been reported late or not been reported at all by some medical institutions, the official said.' https://globalnews.ca/news/6831122/coronavirus-wuhan-death-toll-up/. 

As I pointed out in a post above, Britain currently ONLY counts hospital deaths in its official tally -  and then not even deaths where the virus was a co-factor rather than the sole cause. So if you're in hospital for cardiac problems, catch Covid (see the other thread), and die - you're death will almost certainly not make it into the current stats. Will it at a later date? Well, that would depend on how honest a British government may be in the future.

As to where everyone currently is - China, South Korea, Hong Kong, Switzerland, and New Zealand are countries where the virus is - if not eradicated - then either under control or being got under control. And they've all achieved this by implementing systematic and organized plans based on the classic epidemiological methodology of test and trace.

Most other countries haven't fared so well - including the UK where the response to the Covid thread has been both slow and unfocused and which is currently on track to be potentially the worst effected country on the planet.. That's not wholly this current government's fault, anymore than the US's equally shambolic response can be laid directly at the door or Trump. But the facts are what they are and neither country is in a position to lecture other people about their response to this virus.

Right now, half the world is in lockdown, some countries for sound reasons others because ..well..that's what everyone else seems to be doing. When China,South Korea and New Zealand went into lockdown it was for a sound reason. The purpose of the lockdown was to reduce new cases to the point that individual cases could be tracked, their contacts identified and tested, and so an so forth - breaking future chains of infection and keeping new cases to a minimum. And it's worked. New cases have been kept under control and the lockdown has been eased. So when's that going to happen in Britain? Well, it's not, because there are no plans whatsoever for test and trace to be used as a tool in the fight against Covid.  Instead, the purpose of the lockdown in Britain is to 'flatten the curve' apparently. But how does that work when only about 4% of the population (by current estimates) has been exposed to the virus. What happens when the lockdown is eased? Nobody knows - so 'flatten the curve' is not a plan at all.. it's another of these three world slogans like 'take back control' or "get Brexit done' that sounds catchy but raises more questions than it answers.

Anyway, there's where we are. But in any event, nobody in the USA or most of Europe is in  any position at all to be sneering at the Chinese. If , instead of mocking their culinary predilections and pouring scorn on their official figures, we'd of been paying attention to what they were doing back in January, and learning lessons, - perhaps we could all have been looking at the tail end of this pandemic. A little introspection is not bad thing from time to time.

 

 

Edited April 17, 2020 by Retsdon

[Raja Clavata]

My personal take on the origin:

Zoonotic transfer in Wuhan livestock market - highly probable

Inadvertent leak from a lab in Wuhan - roughly equally highly probable

Deliberate leak by any state or private entity - highly improbable

However, if the latest reports of only 9% of UK population wanting life to return to normal after this are true, then it was clearly Greta who is responsible 😛 

[Mighty Ruler]

3 hours ago, henry d said:

Ah but, it also started in a lab in America, near fort Detrick iirc, they had a cease and desist order from CDC. Then some soldiers from there went to the world army games at Wuhan, DELIBERATELY to infect the Chinese and cause them irreparable economic damage.

However it has been proved that it is not man made, so if it looks like a natural virus, acts like a natural virus, then...

Must be true then!

Of course it’s not man made, only nutters are claiming it is. It either came from the live animal market or one of the lab workers got accidentally  infected and then spread it into the community. Either way, China’s policy of cover up has cost lives.

[oldypigeonpopper]

17 minutes ago, Mighty Ruler said:

Of course it’s not man made, only nutters are claiming it is. It either came from the live animal market or one of the lab workers got accidentally  infected and then spread it into the community. Either way, China’s policy of cover up has cost lives.

hello, i would put money on the latter

[henry d]

3 hours ago, panoma1 said:

I read China has today, without explanation, upped the total coronavirus death rate in Wuhan, by exactly 50% 🤔 they must have missed a few when counting? 

It depends on how you count things, the fire and rescue service (through the govt) only counted fire deaths when a cadaver was retrieved from a fire in a dwelling, if they died on the doorstep, back of the ambulance, in the hospital or in convalescence it was not a fire death.

[Danger-Mouse]

1 hour ago, Mighty Ruler said:

Of course it’s not man made, only nutters are claiming it is. It either came from the live animal market or one of the lab workers got accidentally  infected and then spread it into the community. Either way, China’s policy of cover up has cost lives.

 

[Lord v]

2 hours ago, Retsdon said:

I'm no fan of China at all, but there's a lot of unfounded criticism and misplaced smugness on this thread.

The Chinese explanation is:-

“due to the insufficiency in admission and treatment capability, a few medical institutions failed to connect with the disease prevention and control system in time, while hospitals were overloaded and medics were overwhelmed with patients.'.... 'New death cases were added because non-hospitalized deaths had not been registered at the disease control information system and some confirmed cases had been reported late or not been reported at all by some medical institutions, the official said.' https://globalnews.ca/news/6831122/coronavirus-wuhan-death-toll-up/. 

As I pointed out in a post above, Britain currently ONLY counts hospital deaths in its official tally -  and then not even deaths where the virus was a co-factor rather than the sole cause. So if you're in hospital for cardiac problems, catch Covid (see the other thread), and die - you're death will almost certainly not make it into the current stats. Will it at a later date? Well, that would depend on how honest a British government may be in the future.

As to where everyone currently is - China, South Korea, Hong Kong, Switzerland, and New Zealand are countries where the virus is - if not eradicated - then either under control or being got under control. And they've all achieved this by implementing systematic and organized plans based on the classic epidemiological methodology of test and trace.

Most other countries haven't fared so well - including the UK where the response to the Covid thread has been both slow and unfocused and which is currently on track to be potentially the worst effected country on the planet.. That's not wholly this current government's fault, anymore than the US's equally shambolic response can be laid directly at the door or Trump. But the facts are what they are and neither country is in a position to lecture other people about their response to this virus.

Right now, half the world is in lockdown, some countries for sound reasons others because ..well..that's what everyone else seems to be doing. When China,South Korea and New Zealand went into lockdown it was for a sound reason. The purpose of the lockdown was to reduce new cases to the point that individual cases could be tracked, their contacts identified and tested, and so an so forth - breaking future chains of infection and keeping new cases to a minimum. And it's worked. New cases have been kept under control and the lockdown has been eased. So when's that going to happen in Britain? Well, it's not, because there are no plans whatsoever for test and trace to be used as a tool in the fight against Covid.  Instead, the purpose of the lockdown in Britain is to 'flatten the curve' apparently. But how does that work when only about 4% of the population (by current estimates) has been exposed to the virus. What happens when the lockdown is eased? Nobody knows - so 'flatten the curve' is not a plan at all.. it's another of these three world slogans like 'take back control' or "get Brexit done' that sounds catchy but raises more questions than it answers.

Anyway, there's where we are. But in any event, nobody in the USA or most of Europe is in  any position at all to be sneering at the Chinese. If , instead of mocking their culinary predilections and pouring scorn on their official figures, we'd of been paying attention to what they were doing back in January, and learning lessons, - perhaps we could all have been looking at the tail end of this pandemic. A little introspection is not bad thing from time to time.

 

 

So what's the App currently in development in aid of if not test and trace? 

[Dave-G]

Look on the positive side - almost every government in the world is seriously solving their burgeoning baby boomer pensions and prescriptions time bomb.

[JohnfromUK]

56 minutes ago, henry d said:

It depends on how you count things

This /\

When my late father died 12 years ago, the 'cause of death' was heart failure .......... a perfectly normal thing at the age of 87, and not unexpected.  However he had (3 days before) been given a clean bill of health on his heart.  The truth is that in many cases (and this was so with my father) there are many things gradually going wrong (cancer, a blood condition, arthritis, blood pressure) - all of which contributed to declining health - plus a range of medications - all of which have at least some 'side effects'.

The probably likely scenario was that the immediate cause of death was 'heart failure' ....... because it stopped - but that was caused by ......... coronary artery disease, cancer, and various other conditions, not least of which was plain simple 'old age'.

I believe following the same logic - many who die from Covid outside hospital will actually die from respiratory failure, or heart failure, or possibly other organ failure - to which the stresses of the body fighting Covid has been a contributory factor.

[Docleo]

11 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

I'm no conspiracy theorists, however, It would appear there is some solid evidence of the virus originating from the Chinese lab in China, there has been conspiracy theories about this from the beginning but now both American and now the UK government are openly questioning the possibility of this.

What solid evidence, please?

[Mighty Ruler]

Google Shi Zhengli of the Wuhan Institute of Virology. No firm evidence but you can decide for yourself whether it came from the market or the lab. Personally, I’m open minded.

[bluesj]

10 hours ago, walshie said:

I don't see how the possibility it leaked from a bio lab is a "conspiracy theory." It's one of a few possibilities.

Too right. Anyone remember the last foot and mouth out break?

By the wat F and M is a coronavirus

Edited April 17, 2020 by bluesj

[Retsdon]

Anyway,. in among the other Covid stuff I missed the news that John Prine had died of it. Ir'a like a piece has been broken off the world. Can't remember when someone's death upset me so much.

https://youtu.be/UVxHEjC-BCs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEy6EuZp9IY&t=97s

links to Prine's good songs are almost infinite...

 

Edited April 17, 2020 by Retsdon

[Lloyd90]

12 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Well if that is where it started and it could be proved, then I suspect the Chinese will be getting some pretty big bills coming their way!

Good luck getting them to pay, they already ignore international law and steal everyone’s copyrights. 

12 hours ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

hello, i dare say those who work in this lab have had gagging orders if that is the correct word,

Gagging order = being driven into the woods and shot in the back of the head? 

[12gauge82]

45 minutes ago, Docleo said:

What solid evidence, please?

There's lots out there, but here's a piece from the BBC

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/science-environment-52318539

 

It's all circumstance related, but id say it pushes the chances of a lab release up to at least as likely as a natural accident at the market.

[henry d]

38 minutes ago, Mighty Ruler said:

Google Shi Zhengli of the Wuhan Institute of Virology. No firm evidence but you can decide for yourself whether it came from the market or the lab. Personally, I’m open minded.

Interesting, I read the abstract from an article (multiple author including the above) from 2015 linking C19 as similar to SARS but the rest of the article was beyond me.

You have to ask if it is more likely to arise from many many years of unhygienic slaughter and cookery or from five to ten years of viral investigation in a bio laboratory. If you choose the latter you need to ask why other virulent viruses had not preceded it.

Apologies, I am not addressing you personally MR, you just made a good point and I followed it.

Edited April 17, 2020 by henry d
Apology

[Retsdon]

7 hours ago, Lord v said:

So what's the App currently in development in aid of if not test and trace? 

Nothing that's ever going to work.

[Retsdon]

27 minutes ago, henry d said:

Interesting, I read the abstract from an article (multiple author including the above) from 2015 linking C19 as similar to SARS but the rest of the article was beyond me.

You have to ask if it is more likely to arise from many many years of unhygienic slaughter and cookery or from five to ten years of viral investigation in a bio laboratory. If you choose the latter you need to ask why other virulent viruses had not preceded it.

But it's all irrelevant. It's like the right wing stuff about immigration. If you go somewhere like Bradford, you're in a foreign country. But there's no solution short of ...

It's like that with the origins of Covid. Did it originate in a lab or was it a zoonotic transfer? Unless you're in the business of ,making political mischief the question is pointless at this point in time. The question right now is how do to curtail and better still, roll back the spread of this virus. If you want to point fingers save it for later.

Listen to John Prine instead.....

take this to the  bank - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZKscRo0Dl8

 

 

Edited April 17, 2020 by Retsdon