Howling at the moon or credible scenario? Mass law-breaking

[udderlyoffroad]

I know I've complained many times on here that I think this lockdown has long since passed the point of 'the cure is worse than the disease'. 

But the regardless of your view of lockdown, surely the goalposts seemingly shifting on a weekly basis, can't sit well with even the most ardent supporter?

I've reached the conclusion that we're not going to go back to how things were before, ever.  The 'establishment' like it too much, with a disturbingly high proportion of people seemingly happy to do as they're told, as it's for their own good.

Look at Drakeford's latest comments, "June is too soon"....JUNE?

I think the only way out of this will be mass civil disobedience.   When I raised this before in a post, nobody even responded to that point.  So I thought I'd start a thread.

Best case scenario, we stop being quite so British about the rule of law, and adopt a more Mediterranean approach, where the law is more for guidance than anything else.

And before you come at me with "If you value your tickets, you shouldn't be advocating breaking the law on a public internet forum" - I'm not.  I'm raising the possibility that it will become far more commonplace than before, and I am at least confronting the issue.

Surely I can't be the only one who thinks this possibility is getting ever more likely?

 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

8 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Best case scenario, we stop being quite so British about the rule of law, and adopt a more Mediterranean approach, where the law is more for guidance than anything else.

And before you come at me with "If you value your tickets, you shouldn't be advocating breaking the law on a public internet forum" - I'm not.  I'm raising the possibility that it will become far more commonplace than before, and I am at least confronting the issue.

Surely I can't be the only one who thinks this possibility is getting ever more likely?

 

Very interesting, but we have been through the lockdown with guidance that perhaps shoud have been law and now you are suggesting we take laws as guidance.

 

You can't have it both ways surely?

[udderlyoffroad]

6 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Very interesting, but we have been through the lockdown with guidance that perhaps shoud have been law 

Have we?  We had poorly drafted, rushed legislation during the first lockdown.  Irrelevant anyway, except as a demonstration of why creation of any crimiinal law requires proper debate in parliament.

 

8 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

and now you are suggesting we take laws as guidance.

I'm suggesting no such thing.

I'm suggesting that one possible outcome of the situation we find ourselves in will be an end to the rule of law, as we in the UK understand it.

Let me paint the picture a bit more for you:

The government, hopelessly enthralled to SAGE, doesn't lift lockdown per the timetable previously advised. Surely you agree that this is quite possible, based on past performance?

Hospitality goes to the wall (even more than it is already), and with the coming of decent weather, the British start to crave social contact again.

So, the scenes we saw last year in the media of 'Covidiots' packing themselves on beaches, in parks etc, becomes too common to even report on. 

Crucially, public opinion shifts, with people being thoroughly fed up that their basic civil liberties still missing, presumed dead.  The police cannot keep the peace as they do not have the resources.  

To compound this, sooner or later the media will start showing scenes from places that have had their liberties fully restored, like the various states in the US.  People will begin to ask questions.

I see dark days on the horizon, and I cannot for the life of me see why, based on past performance, restrictions will be lifted.

 

[Walker570]

From what I see every day it appears the revolt has already started.  Traffic is almost back to normal and apart from the one or two scaredy cats who even walk down our country roads on their own wearing a mask, everyone else is getting back to normal and just using good old common sense. 

Who voted for that idiot in Wales ?  They must have a similar bunch like the ones who voted SNP into government.  I note that she is trying to curry favour by opening up Scotland early from the lockdown.

[twenty]

Well it looks as though there may be  vigils at the weekend  in response to the death of Sarah Everard, 

Police have said these gatherings would be unlawful in the current  covid  restrictions,

The organisers go before the High court this afternoon for "Permission".

[udderlyoffroad]

 

3 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

everyone else is getting back to normal and just using good old common sense. 

No.  Try meeting your friends for a drink.  Or even having your family over for lunch.  We are a long way from normal.

I respectfully suggest you are conflating 'revolt' with working within what the law allows.  The revolt hasn't started yet.  And I don't mean Tooting Popular Front levels of revolt...

4 minutes ago, twenty said:

Well it looks as though there may be  vigils at the weekend  in response to the death of Sarah Everard, 

Police have said these gatherings would be unlawful in the current  covid  restrictions,

The organisers go before the High court this afternoon for "Permission".

Almost an irrelevance, BLM protests riots were permitted by the police last year.  Didn't change a thing with respect to restriction imposed on the majority.

[twenty]

8 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

 

No.  Try meeting your friends for a drink.  Or even having your family over for lunch.  We are a long way from normal.

I respectfully suggest you are conflating 'revolt' with working within what the law allows.  The revolt hasn't started yet.  And I don't mean Tooting Popular Front levels of revolt...

Almost an irrelevance, BLM protests riots were permitted by the police last year.  Didn't change a thing with respect to restriction imposed on the majority.

But the police do not want permission given this time, and with their "involvement" in this case, it could turn into Chaos.

[henry d]

3 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

We had poorly drafted, rushed legislation during the first lockdown. 

Are you really surprised at that, an unknown virus that really accelerated round the world with many deaths and overwhelmed critical care, should BJ have had parliamentary debate first?

[Mice!]

4 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

And before you come at me with "If you value your tickets, you shouldn't be advocating breaking the law on a public internet forum" - I'm not.  I'm raising the possibility that it will become far more commonplace than before, and I am at least confronting the issue.

Surely I can't be the only one who thinks this possibility is getting ever more likely?

I shouldn't bother but I will, the shooting community won't do anything for fear of their tickets,  they must be the most law abiding section of the country.

As for mass law breaking I just don't see it happening,  the vaccine roll out is continuing,  Lancashire are expecting everyone to have been offered the jab by June or the end of June?

Hopefully things continue to improve and relax along the timescale/dates given.

[Mungler]

It will all be over with prolonged hot weather.

Everyone’s had enough. Most people have worked out when the BBC told us we were all going to die this time last year, they didn’t know what they were talking about. We were ‘sold’ with fear, a bodies in the street Spanish flu pandemic and we got 80% asymptomatic not even knowing and only the very elderly at any serious risk.

I can also say that the commute traffic jam I see says that at least 75% are already back and turning up at work.

And yes, the world has gone totally bananas in the last 12 months.

[southeastpete]

People didnt obey the rules last summer and if they’re still in place they won’t this summer.

People we’re allowed to travel to buy pets, so a surprising amount of people from London found pets to buy in South Wales.

The only trouble is for the hospitality business owners, they cat ignore the rules as the fines would be crippling.

[treetree]

2 hours ago, henry d said:

Are you really surprised at that, an unknown virus that really accelerated round the world with many deaths and overwhelmed critical care, should BJ have had parliamentary debate first?

There was no need for the Coronavirus act, as the Civil Contingencies act exists for such events. The civil contingencies act also ensures proper scrutiny by Parliament, more frequent reviews as to whether any measures enacted are still required, and avoids 'lingering' measures.

The coronavirus act was put in place to avoid the review and scrutiny of an existing, appropriate act.

Rotten to the core.

[TRINITY]

I am also of the opinion enough is enough this is dragging on now. We all live on a small island which is called the United kingdom. As of today two parts can resume outdoor recreation but in the English part in whic I live in we have to wait for another two and half weeks. 

Not only that as a citizen of the UK I am not allowed to travel to a part of it. Not that I want to go to Wales, but many people will live so close to that border ,this could effect their daily lives. We should be all in this together . Some may argue that our government is following medical advice but he Scots and Welsh are also following medical advice. Theirs seems different to what Boris is hearing. Who is right,who is wrong ?

Last but not least you can get your haircut in Wales , but in England this is not allowed to 12 th April. Good job I am bald or else this would really have upset me.

[TRINITY]

After the post above I have also decided to add something else. Drakeford says if you are English you cant travel to Wales. As an English citizen in The UK what power has he over me to stop me doing so. If he found out that I had been there for a visit. Would he send the Welsh police over the border into England to extradite me and try me in the Welsh courts. There is nothing in the English law which says I cant go there. Ok this is not going to happen, it's just a way of showing what a complete farce this whole situation is. 

[udderlyoffroad]

11 hours ago, TRINITY said:

Drakeford says if you are English you cant travel to Wales.

Not that I particularly wish to go into bat for the man, but I think what he actually said was taken out of context.  As I understand it, In Wales you will be able to stay in self catered holiday accommodation soon, but not in England.  As overnight stays are currently banned in England, this would extend to people coming from England to Wales.

He can't practically stop or ban people from coming into Wales, precisely because of the people living in the border regions.  You would end up criminalising even more of the population than you already have.

But yes, utterly farcical, and not something anyone born in a free country should tolerate from their law makers.

 

13 hours ago, treetree said:

There was no need for the Coronavirus act, as the Civil Contingencies act exists for such events.

Would you like some ointment for your burn @henry d

And yes, even absent the civil contingencies act, a proper parliamentary debate should've happened prior to any lockdown.  That's how democracy works.  We do not have an el presidente leader, able to do as he pleases.

 

15 hours ago, Mice! said:

I shouldn't bother but I will, the shooting community won't do anything for fear of their tickets,  they must be the most law abiding section of the country.

This is rather my point.  What happens when law-breaking becomes the norm amongst your non-shooting friends and family?  Are you just going to sit tight at home, no family gatherings for me thanks, I value my tickets too much.

Of course I'm not expecting people to put their hands up and say "yes, I'll be breaking the law" on a public internet forum.

But, I'd suggest we all start thinking about this rock/hard place scenario as a possibility.  Be a lonely Christmas.

 

15 hours ago, Mice! said:

Hopefully things continue to improve and relax along the timescale/dates given.

Really?  What have you seen in the past 12 months that allows you to believe this?  We are over a year into '2 weeks to flatten the curve'.   It's all so much 'jam tomorrow' nonsense.

Believe it if you need to, in order to get through the day.

I on other hand am awake, or maybe even woke, to use the modern slang.

[Mr.T]

It’s about time that all of the sensible people got together and realise that lockdowns don’t kill the virus, all they achieve is a drop in infections and when they are lifted the infections rise again. How many times do we have to go down this path before they see it. The schools have only been back for a week and already 2 local to me have had to close due to outbreaks of the virus. The restrictions on people’s lives and wellbeing are ridiculous and in my view should be lifted, and you should be allowed to make your own decision on if you go to the pub, restaurant or meet your friends and family.

We all should be responsible for our own health and not dictated to by the government, we didn’t elect them to make us prisoners in our own homes.

[Mice!]

1 hour ago, udderlyoffroad said:

This is rather my point.  What happens when law-breaking becomes the norm amongst your non-shooting friends and family?  Are you just going to sit tight at home, no family gatherings for me thanks, I value my tickets too much.

Of course I'm not expecting people to put their hands up and say "yes, I'll be breaking the law" on a public internet forum.

But, I'd suggest we all start thinking about this rock/hard place scenario as a possibility.  Be a lonely Christmas.

Well i don't have any tickets and I don't picture my friends or family becoming law breakers, family will meet outdoors as we did last year.

1 hour ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Really?  What have you seen in the past 12 months that allows you to believe this?  We are over a year into '2 weeks to flatten the curve'.   It's all so much 'jam tomorrow' nonsense.

Believe it if you need to, in order to get through the day.

I on other hand am awake, or maybe even woke, to use the modern slang.

The vaccine is the big difference,  infection rates are falling as they should be and pressure on the nhs is hopefully easing.

Spring is here, better weather and people will want to get out, the vaccine hopefully means that things return to normal as the age groups most at risk should be protected. 

[Wymondley]

23 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

I think the only way out of this will be mass civil disobedience.

I would imagine the usual suspects are already planning to use "lockdown" as an excuse to kick off this years rioting season.

 

[spurs 14]

We’ve all stuck together and it’s hopefully nearing an end with the vaccinations and warmer weather coming ,it’s at last going the right way ,

 yes I’m desperate to get out, need a haircut , want to see family etc but let’s all stick it out for a bit longer and finish this 

[Mungler]

4 hours ago, Mr.T said:

It’s about time that all of the sensible people got together and realise that lockdowns don’t kill the virus, all they achieve is a drop in infections and when they are lifted the infections rise again. How many times do we have to go down this path before they see it. The schools have only been back for a week and already 2 local to me have had to close due to outbreaks of the virus. The restrictions on people’s lives and wellbeing are ridiculous and in my view should be lifted, and you should be allowed to make your own decision on if you go to the pub, restaurant or meet your friends and family.

We all should be responsible for our own health and not dictated to by the government, we didn’t elect them to make us prisoners in our own homes.

This

[Scully]

9 hours ago, Mr.T said:

It’s about time that all of the sensible people got together and realise that lockdowns don’t kill the virus, all they achieve is a drop in infections and when they are lifted the infections rise again. How many times do we have to go down this path before they see it. The schools have only been back for a week and already 2 local to me have had to close due to outbreaks of the virus. The restrictions on people’s lives and wellbeing are ridiculous and in my view should be lifted, and you should be allowed to make your own decision on if you go to the pub, restaurant or meet your friends and family.

We all should be responsible for our own health and not dictated to by the government, we didn’t elect them to make us prisoners in our own homes.

It was never claimed that lockdowns killed the virus; we went into lockdown to help prevent the spread of the virus, and thereby prevent the NHS being swamped to the extent it couldn’t cope, and if the statistics are anything to go by, on the whole it’s worked.
As you quite rightly point out, when lockdown is relaxed ( in this case the return of kids to schools ) the spread increases. 
Some of us have carried on working throughout, and to a lesser or greater extent, continued to live marginally ( but not always ) within the guidelines.
I totally agree healthy people should have been allowed to carry on as usual, but as you’ve just pointed out, when they do the cases of infections rise. So what to do? 
I did everything within my power to ignore the guidelines, but I wouldn’t have been allowed in shops, the restaurants, pubs and cafes were shut, so I couldn’t dine out, or drink out as usual either. I totally ignored the Christmas Day restrictions to the point my OH and I had very serious words, and it’s an understatement to say we don’t see eye to eye regarding all the regulations etc, and if I didn’t have her parents to consider ( both of whom were/are shielding ) I wouldn’t have restrained my natural inclinations at all. 
There is only so much you can do in circumstances such as these, when you have loved ones and others to consider, but all the time I was encouraging my two 20 something kids to get out there and enjoy yourselves. 
If I were to explain fully what I did ( and quite a few mates ) and didn’t do during the Covid guidelines I would be crucified on this forum, and I fall out with enough folk on here as it is, so no more will be said of that. 
Suffice to say I’m a huge libertarian and anti authoritarian....if there is such a word. 
 

[ordnance]

Quote

It’s about time that all of the sensible people got together and realise that lockdowns don’t kill the virus, all they achieve is a drop in infections and when they are lifted the infections rise again

As said the lockdowns were never put in place to kill or stop the virus, they were to lower infections and they achieved that. 

[Mr.T]

8 hours ago, ordnance said:

As said the lockdowns were never put in place to kill or stop the virus, they were to lower infections and they achieved that. 

The words kill the virus may not have been used but JVT has definitely said “stick to the rules and we will beat this” so the implication is there. 

[Scully]

42 minutes ago, Mr.T said:

The words kill the virus may not have been used but JVT has definitely said “stick to the rules and we will beat this” so the implication is there. 

No, the implication is to abide by the rules to stop the spread; it’s up there in writing on the podium whenever there’s a ‘briefing’. I know it’s pedantry but we have to deal with facts, not emotive thinking. As shooters we all know what the result of emotive thinking is. 

[Mr.T]

2 hours ago, Scully said:

No, the implication is to abide by the rules to stop the spread; it’s up there in writing on the podium whenever there’s a ‘briefing’. I know it’s pedantry but we have to deal with facts, not emotive thinking. As shooters we all know what the result of emotive thinking is. 

Well you read it one way and I read it another way, stopping the spread isn’t going to beat it, lockdowns don’t beat it, they only suppress it temporarily. We haven’t got a plan to beat it, we will have to learn to live with it. We should be allowed to make our own decisions on how safe we feel about going to the pub or a football game or going about our lives. I’ve never felt so restrained and controlled and it’s about time the voice of the people was heard.